Curiosity on Gloriana Class Battleship

[Whitelion]

Hi everyone, on the wiki page:

https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Gloriana-class_Battleship

 

states that the Gloriana classes are able to deal with entire fleets and planets alone, but it does not say where the information comes from, unlike lexicanum there is no number that refers to the quote in the list of sources at the bottom of the page .

 

If the sources are put in order, the information should come from the Battlefleet Gothic 2010 Compendium, I searched around for it but didn't find it.

Does anyone know what source this statement comes from? You would do me a great pleasure because I am a great lover of ships and titans, and I try to collect all the books where the most beautiful and unusual data are shown.

Thanks in advance for the help

[Gederas]

It's from the Forge World Black Books.

[Whitelion]

Thanks a lot, please do you know which black book they talk about? It's the first time I've heard of them, I don't know how many they are nor if each one talks about a theme, for example only infantry or only naval etc.

Edited August 30, 2020 by Whitelion

[Sword Brother Adelard]

I doubt you'll find reference to Glorianas in Gothic material. They were a Heresy addition I believe. With a retcon element redefining certain known ships as Glorianas, such as the Eternal Crusader.

[Bung]

Thanks a lot, please do you know which black book they talk about? It's the first time I've heard of them, I don't know how many they are nor if each one talks about a theme, for example only infantry or only naval etc.

The Information is scattered over the first 6 of the Black Books and alot of Heresy novels.

[WrathOfTheLion]

Each HH black book is a campaign book, covering the lore of a few factions and a campaign. An example, book 1: Betrayal is the Istvaan III campaign betweeen loyalist and traitor Sons of Horus, Emperor's Children, Death Guard and World Eaters.

 

As they are campaign supplements for the AoD game system, they are not organized around ships, infantry, etc.

Edited August 30, 2020 by WrathOfTheLion

[Noserenda]

Im sure ive seen some fan compilations of Heresy era fleet stuff, you might find what you are after there? Gloriana's are all unique though and some are definitely bigger and tastier than others.

[Whitelion]

thanks guys, I'm looking around for HH Black books, I managed to find the Abyss Class book too.

However, there is a lot of misinformation out there about bigger ships, on some forums I have seen posts describing retribution classes as 5km long, and 3km long lunar classes. But there are Novels in which we see Retribution classes of various sizes between 10 and 17 km.

 

For the Gloriana, everyone usually thinks the biggest is the Macragge Honor which is 26km, but we know the invincible Reason is 28km. The strange thing is that even wikia stops at 26 km of the MacRagge Honor.

 

This is because everyone thinks that in 40k ships of the same class always have the same size and the same armament, but the 4th edition rulebook was released in 2004 and in paged 119 it clearly and literally states that the imperial navy sends "Vast, city- sized constructions "to do errands, 12-17 km is a size closer to the size of a city.

[Bung]

Well, the lore and other stuff changed, evolved and had different authors over the years.

Some new stuff got  added older stuff reworked. Happens to alot of stuff in the 40k background BFG stuff is no exception.

 

If you go through the old BFG rulebook there is stated that a standard cruiser like a Lunar-Class are around 8 km long (aroiund the size of a Super Star Destroyer of Star Wars)

while Escort Class ships are mentioned to be around 2 km and Battleships are around 12 km.

But that lore is more than 20 years old.

[Whitelion]

well yes, but the novels are all canon except the heretical tomes

[Lord_Caerolion]

It's more becoming "All things are canon, some are just more canon than others". I went into this a lot during the discussion last time about Titan heights, but we've got novels where the Legions sizes were in the thousands with the Ultramarines being the largest at 15,000 or so, and the current Horus Heresy novels/Black Books where the smallest Legions were 75,000 strong, and Ultramarines topping at 130,000. Both of these cannot simultaneously be true, and everything recent goes with the larger numbers.

 

Hell, go back far enough, and Marines aren't even post/trans/meta-humans, they're just roided-up soldiers stuck in power armour, and pointed at the enemy, charging into battle screaming "Kil! Kil! Kil!", typos included. 

[Karhedron]

Im sure ive seen some fan compilations of Heresy era fleet stuff, you might find what you are after there? Gloriana's are all unique though and some are definitely bigger and tastier than others.

Agreed. The Swordstorm was substantially redesigned during construction to meet Jaghati Khan's requirements. This emphasized speed above all else.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Yes, fairly certain I've seen something about the Gloriana not being a set pattern, but rather just a catch-all term for the Primarch flagships.

 

Also, the discrepancy in numbers goes back to the fact that, for so, so long, ships were really just classed as "big". Cruisers were "big", light cruisers were "slightly less big", escorts "even less big", and battleships/heavy cruisers were "bigger". It's the same as how the Titans were treated. The difference is that we've yet to have a true, organized system come in that actually codifies things, which probably won't really occur unless we get a reboot of BattleFleet Gothic. Until then, the most we'll have to go on is the occasional measurements of notable ships in the FW Black Books, or one-off lengths/tonnages mentioned in Horus Heresy books.

[Noserenda]

Yes, fairly certain I've seen something about the Gloriana not being a set pattern, but rather just a catch-all term for the Primarch flagships.

 

Also, the discrepancy in numbers goes back to the fact that, for so, so long, ships were really just classed as "big". Cruisers were "big", light cruisers were "slightly less big", escorts "even less big", and battleships/heavy cruisers were "bigger". It's the same as how the Titans were treated. The difference is that we've yet to have a true, organized system come in that actually codifies things, which probably won't really occur unless we get a reboot of BattleFleet Gothic. Until then, the most we'll have to go on is the occasional measurements of notable ships in the FW Black Books, or one-off lengths/tonnages mentioned in Horus Heresy books.

Mostly right, all of the Legion flagships are Gloriana but not all the Glorianas are Legion flagships*, i think its technically a size category for "bigger than battleship and filled with unique/dark age tech" and might technically include the Abyss class monsters but those are really their own thing.

 

*Some Legions had more than one, some were fleet assets, at least one was the Emperors ride :D 

[Sword Brother Adelard]

The Eternal Crusader is perhaps the most confused example. It being the Imperial Fists' Gloriana, but not its flagship, (because y'know. Phalanx.)

 

But it was never described as a Gloriana when it was first announced as the flagship of the Black Templars, it was just said to be a heavily modified and expanded battle barge.

 

I'm not sure, but I think the first real description of it being a Gloriana was in Black Legion, when ADB described it as facing off against its 'sister' ship, the Vengeful Spirit:

 

‘Sister,’Ultio called to the Eternal Crusader, the Vengeful Spirit’s sibling and the only Gloriana-class battleship in the enemy armada. On her face was an expression of consummate rapture. ‘You missed.’

[TrashMan]

It's more becoming "All things are canon, some are just more canon than others". I went into this a lot during the discussion last time about Titan heights, but we've got novels where the Legions sizes were in the thousands with the Ultramarines being the largest at 15,000 or so, and the current Horus Heresy novels/Black Books where the smallest Legions were 75,000 strong, and Ultramarines topping at 130,000. Both of these cannot simultaneously be true, and everything recent goes with the larger numbers.

 

Frankly, I think bigger numbers for the legions are better.

We ARE talking about the entire galaxy to conquer, and the idea of bringing a planet to it's knees with 100 dudes is kinda silly, even for space marines.

A SM chapter should be 10000 minimum.

[Brother Tyler]

Lexicanum gives you a decent starting point for references. I've linked to the Gloriana Class Battleship page. That has links to the pages for each of the Glorianas so that you can research the various references for them.

 

The malleability/evolutionary nature of the lore means that there will always be a certain amount of friction when comparing sources. While it's easy to attribute some degree of confusion, it's a simple fact that the lore changes over time. Taking the Eternal Crusader, for example, it was first introduced (during WH40K 3rd edition) as an exceptional battle barge. It was given official rules in BFG as such. When the Gloriana class was later introduced with the fleshing out of the Horus Heresy, the Eternal Crusader was retconned as one of these immense ships. This wasn't an immediate retcon that occurred concurrent with the introduction of the Gloriana, but happened later.

 

Something to keep in mind with the references at Lexicanum is that they are a poorly conceived system - not using MLA or some other solid structure. I've just consulted two of the references and they are inaccurate. I have the hardback version of The Horus Heresy Book One - Betrayal (2012) and the first printing of The Horus Heresy - Collected Visions (2007). The Gloriana class battleship isn't mentioned on page 96 of Betrayal, nor is it mentioned on page 38 of Collected Visions. The Conqueror (the World Eaters' Gloriana) is mentioned on page 96 of Betrayal, but it's described as a battle barge. My assumption with both is that Lexicanum authors have consulted later editions of these books (i.e., the paperback version of Betrayal incorporated some changes, which I can't confirm, and the 2nd edition of Collected Visions incorporated more recent material, which is known). I just consulted The Horus Heresy Book Five - Tempest and that listing, too, is inaccurate. Glorianas aren't mentioned anywhere on page 20 of that book (which Lexicanum lists as the reference page). Moreover, that book mentions that the Ultramarines had two Glorianas, but doesn't name them (on page 82 under The Ultramarine Fleet in the hardback version of the book).

 

In conclusion, question everything. Unless you see a reference with your own eyes, it is suspect (yes, even anything that I quote ).

[Lord_Caerolion]

 

It's more becoming "All things are canon, some are just more canon than others". I went into this a lot during the discussion last time about Titan heights, but we've got novels where the Legions sizes were in the thousands with the Ultramarines being the largest at 15,000 or so, and the current Horus Heresy novels/Black Books where the smallest Legions were 75,000 strong, and Ultramarines topping at 130,000. Both of these cannot simultaneously be true, and everything recent goes with the larger numbers.

 

Frankly, I think bigger numbers for the legions are better.

We ARE talking about the entire galaxy to conquer, and the idea of bringing a planet to it's knees with 100 dudes is kinda silly, even for space marines.

A SM chapter should be 10000 minimum.

 

 

Oh, I agree wholeheartedly, I'm just pointing out that the whole argument of "everything is canon" can cause issues if you take it at face value, and say that old and new contradictory sources are both equally true just because GW hasn't come out and directly said "hey guys, X is no longer canon". If everything is canon, then the Ultramarines are simultaneously 15,000 strong and 230,000 strong. The Space Wolf homeworld is Lycan, and Leman Russ was actually just some famous Imperial Guard commander.

[Whitelion]

anyone remember any sources that speak of a Glorian class alone can defeat entire fleets and planets? I have read it on wikia and lexicanum but I don't know where to look

[Lord_Caerolion]

It sounds familiar. Maybe Talon of Horus?

[Whitelion]

It sounds familiar. Maybe Talon of Horus?

Thanks, i bought the novel, remember in which part of the story they describe it? At the beginning, in the middle or at the end, so I have a starting point to look for it, although I still believe that I will read it all

[Sword Brother Adelard]

I did a search on both Talon of Horus and Black Legion for Gloriana and 'Vengeful Spirit' with nothing as specific found as you seek. Although, it appears that the VS does engage an entire flotilla alone at one point, and survives.

[Whitelion]

thank you for your interest, the episode of Vengeful spirits you refer to, in which of the two novels is it?

[Sword Brother Adelard]

The first,

[CCE1981]

Something to note on ships. The Nimitz Class Super Carriers aren’t the same length. Minor variations in welding and slightly modifications extend the size and abilities of each individual ship. The Nimitz Class are all about 1,000 ft long. Upgrade that to Kilometers, different Shipyards, and different millennia built and they should vary much more wildly between members of each class.