Unknown ancestry and Primaris Reinforcements

[Uberlord Gendo]

Do we know what happened when chapters of unknown ancestry got primaris reinforcements? Did they just kind of shrug and give them a mixed bag containing their best guess?

[Spyros]

Logic (not 40K logic) dictates the following:

Assuming that for various reasons neither the Chapter knows its lineage nor the Adeptus Administratum does, Cawl upon arrival would run a series for tests and find a match.

He would also see  the methods they were using until now to create Firstborn Astartes.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Cawl has access to the genetic tithes of every Chapter. If one has a unique strain of geneseed, he can just use the tithed geneseed as a baseline to create the Primaris organs for them. Plus, most of the time "unknown ancestry" just means "Ultramarines, but we forgot".

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Funny, I'd have thought being well groomed a blood angels trait.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

I think Cawl would match the gene seed that they have tithed. I also think he wouldn't bother to tell them whose it is lol. Granted he wouldn't care if it was traitor gene seed so that may be a good thing for them.

[BluejayJunior]

Even if their initial Primaris reinforcements didn't match the chapter's lineage, the chapter is also getting the ability to make Primaris. So as they start creating their own from their own gene stores, the new Primaris would match the chapter's genetic heritage. 

[MegaVolt87]

When Bobby told Cawl not to use traitor gene stock, was a bit late otherwise how would silver skulls, sons of orar, doom eagles, minotaurs etc get their primaris recruits?

Edited September 1, 2020 by MegaVolt87

[Tyberos the Red Wake]

When Bobby told Cawl not to use traitor gene stock, was a bit late otherwise how would silver skulls, sons of orar, doom eagles, minotaurs etc get their primaris recruits?

 

Cawl wasn't using traitor gene-seed, he was just using that chapter's original gene-seed. It's not his fault those chapters happened to be traitorous dogs.

Edited September 1, 2020 by Tyberos the Red Wake

[Snazzy]

When Bobby told Cawl not to use traitor gene stock, was a bit late otherwise how would silver skulls, sons of orar, doom eagles, minotaurs etc get their primaris recruits?

 

Conjecture!

 

Conversely, i have wondered about Indomitus Chapters created out of Traitor gene stocks.  Would they flat out tell them, hey, your Primarch is a daemon trying to kill everyone?  Isn't there a rumor that the Sons of the Phoenix are in fact Fulgrim derived, but told they are descended from Dorn?

[MegaVolt87]

 

When Bobby told Cawl not to use traitor gene stock, was a bit late otherwise how would silver skulls, sons of orar, doom eagles, minotaurs etc get their primaris recruits?

 

Cawl wasn't using traitor gene-seed, he was just using that chapter's original gene-seed. It's not his fault those chapters happened to be traitorous dogs.

 

 

Bit harsh there, considering some suspect Carcharodon's as potential NL descendants and not actually RG.    I think the possibility of Cawl agreeing + promising not to use traitor gene stocks may have been easy for him to keep, considering the questionable/ suspicious origins of quite a few loyalist chapters. So he already had what he wasn't allowed to use in the first place. Seems like a sneaky catch 22 thing I see ad mech doing honestly, everyone remaining none the wiser, Cawl doing as he pleases regardless. 

[The Unseen]

I could definitely see Cawl knowing that certain chapters come from *traitor* lineage and using those to satisfy his curiosity. *This isn't XX geneseed, it's tithed geneseed straight from the Mentors legion!* or whatever.

 

And as for the Sharks, they might be chimeric, but primarily RG geneseed, they're heavily implied to be the remnants of the Terran legionaires Corax half banishes to the outer edge of the galaxy as they're brutality reminds him too much of the slavers he fought against on his homeworld.

[Uberlord Gendo]

Mm. All this makes sense. I'd initially thought it would be weird for reinforcements to show up and not know what their derivation was, but they may simply have been told they were reinforcements for X chapter, made with tithed material. I imagine some chapters might even have been disappointed if they heard of the Ultima Founding and believed it would bring answers.

[MegaVolt87]

I could definitely see Cawl knowing that certain chapters come from *traitor* lineage and using those to satisfy his curiosity. *This isn't XX geneseed, it's tithed geneseed straight from the Mentors legion!* or whatever.

 

And as for the Sharks, they might be chimeric, but primarily RG geneseed, they're heavily implied to be the remnants of the Terran legionaires Corax half banishes to the outer edge of the galaxy as they're brutality reminds him too much of the slavers he fought against on his homeworld.

 

And that's the beauty of the unknown foundings, you have the room. Still salty about Death Spectres being hard locked as RG successors though in recent years, was better when they were an unknown founding. 

[Lord_Caerolion]

And as for the Sharks, they might be chimeric, but primarily RG geneseed, they're heavily implied to be the remnants of the Terran legionaires Corax half banishes to the outer edge of the galaxy as they're brutality reminds him too much of the slavers he fought against on his homeworld.

 

That's had a heavy amount of skepticism thrown on it by their Black Library novels. The Ashen Claws are still out there, and they're separate from the Carcharadons.

 

EDIT: I mean, they very well could have split off from them, but given the Carcharadons are supposed to not really know themselves who they've descended from (or at least are hiding it from the lower ranks, Inner Circle style), it doesn't really make sense that they're in constant contact with their "founders" who very much know who they came from.

Edited September 1, 2020 by Lord_Caerolion

[BrainFireBob]

I think the whole Indomitus Crusade is about Cawl being literalist.

 

Roboute commissioned him to create Primaris for all chapters. As there were new Foundings, he would hold off release until their Primaris were ready.

 

Roboute is angry about the lack of release, but it allowed the Crusade.

 

So in addition to the 9 gene lines, Cawl was conceivably creating custom Primaris for each chapter, allowing preservation of old mutations.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

It just struck me that the evidence of there having been some sort of process of assessing existing chapters' gene stocks for compatibility was present in the last SM codex. The White Templars learning that they aren't IF successors.

The only problem then is, how did they learn what they are not, without also learning what they are?

[Chaplain Mollusc]

Brother Adelard, based on my testing experience (computer, not bio) it would make sense for the first test or set of tests to be "Does this match the specifications we expect?" So they would know the chapter didn't match their expected progenitor before they knew which one it did match.  Which is not to say that the author planned it that way, but it makes sense to me. Telling them about the negative without waiting for the positive, though? That's a move.

 

This whole idea of loyalist chapters from traitor geneseed* and chimeric geneseed and so forth keeps making me laugh and shake my head. For so many years the guidance in DIY chapters here at B&C was to avoid either of those ridiculous tropes, and then GW did it themselves. Granted it's their universe, and they came up with a decently plausible justification, but I still haven't fully adjusted to the idea. Our grimdark toys and stories can be funny sometimes.

 

* Yes, yes: geneseed from legions that were later corrupted and went traitor, but it's a convenient shorthand.

[Snazzy]

It has been funny to watch GW's perspective on all of this change over the years.  I do remember a time when the accelerated process of Astartes production used during the Great Crusade was discarded out of concern that it caused degeneration of the geneseed and contributed to the Hersey.  That gives the impression that the Hersey was at least partially a function of genetics.

[Doghouse]

I'd imagine if they couldn't be certain they'd use geneseed from the Ultramarines like the majority of Chapters already use.

[Ishagu]

I think the whole Indomitus Crusade is about Cawl being literalist.

 

Roboute commissioned him to create Primaris for all chapters. As there were new Foundings, he would hold off release until their Primaris were ready.

 

Roboute is angry about the lack of release, but it allowed the Crusade.

 

So in addition to the 9 gene lines, Cawl was conceivably creating custom Primaris for each chapter, allowing preservation of old mutations.

 

People are making mistakes and assumptions about the lore. Here is clarification:

 

Cawl didn't create Primaris for all of the specific chapter initially. He created massive legion sized forces for each of the 9 Loyalist first-founding chapters only. These were called the un-numbered sons and were hundreds of thousands strong. He used the original Primarch gene-seed in the vaults on Terra to create perfect Astartes without degradation or un-intended mutations.

 

These were eventually split and assigned to chapters of their gene-lines, or used to create new chapters. So literally a bunch of Primaris from the Legion sized ultramarine force eventually have their armour re-painted and are assigned to the Nova Marines, Silver Templars, Sons of Orar, etc. Same happens with the Imperial Fist legion force, the Salamanders Legion force, etc.

 

Eventually all the chapters gain the technology to make new Primaris directly. This is distributed by Tech-Priests of the Mechanicus and data bursts or other means. Not all chapters receive existing Primaris re-enforcements, some just get the tech. At that point they can make Primaris even if the gene-seed origins are unknown. Chapters like the Minotaurs, Blood Ravens, etc can now field Primaris Marines without the truth of their gene-seed being revealed.

Edited September 2, 2020 by Ishagu

[Marshal Reinhard]

A legion sized force divided up among the legion successors of the ultramarines is fine and dandy but where would a legion of space wolves go? Or other chapters with rather few successors?

[Ishagu]

A legion sized force divided up among the legion successors of the ultramarines is fine and dandy but where would a legion of space wolves go? Or other chapters with rather few successors?

New chapter foundings.

 

For example, in the Dark Imperium novel they literally create a brand new Space Wolf successor chapter called "The Wolf Spears." And this was only one of many examples throughout the crusade.

 

Chapters that were unique examples like the Space Wolves and Salamanders now have dozens of successors across the galaxy.

Edited September 2, 2020 by Ishagu

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Brother Adelard, based on my testing experience (computer, not bio) it would make sense for the first test or set of tests to be "Does this match the specifications we expect?" So they would know the chapter didn't match their expected progenitor before they knew which one it did match. Which is not to say that the author planned it that way, but it makes sense to me. Telling them about the negative without waiting for the positive, though? That's a move.

Yeah, it's not as if there are an infinite number of alternative options kicking about! At most 19, realistically 8. You'd think if they have a test which tells them they're not 7th, there would be one to tell them they're not any of the others as well!

 

That's what you get for buying the trial version of the home testing kit I suppose.

 

A legion sized force divided up among the legion successors of the ultramarines is fine and dandy but where would a legion of space wolves go? Or other chapters with rather few successors?

New chapter foundings.

 

For example, in the Dark Imperium novel they literally create a brand new Space Wolf successor chapter called "The Wolf Spears." And this was only one of many examples throughout the crusade.

 

Chapters that were unique examples like the Space Wolves and Salamanders now have dozens of successors across the galaxy.

I felt really sorry for that Space Wolf who was allocated to the Wolf Spears. All he wanted was to see Fenris, and he got left on a god forsaken world in the middle of a warp storm.

[roryokane]

I reckon Cawl knows exactly whose is whose. Even *IF* he used tithed geneseed (or frankly, geneseed pinched from battlefields if he thought he could get away with it), there’s no way he’d resist looking into various chapters that piqued his interest.

I reckon he’d be thrilled finding loyalist chapters derived from traitor legions - because then he’d get to have a muck around without technically breaking Guilliman’s injunction about using traitor gene stock - so he’d be more than happy to make Blood Raven Primaris and, if found out, be like “I was only using the geneseed provided! How was I to know it was from the Thousand Sons?!”

Ditto for chapters with Chimeric geneseed. In fact it’s my pet theory that a few of the newer chapters are in fact mixtures - Sons of the Phoenix (IF/EC geneseed) and the Covenant of Fire (Salamanders/Word Bearers), for example. Enough loyalist DNA to make the tithes pass for what they’re supposed to be and correct some of the “flaws” in the traitor legion, but enough of the “good bits” of the traitor genestock

 

I’d love to know where people got the info on the Silver Skulls, sons of Orar and the like from! I always thought they were Guilliman’s boys through and through!

[durdle-durdle]

The blood ravens struggle for a long time to figure out who their primogenitor is.

Cawl *sends primaris reinforcements*

their chapter master "well, in doing all this genetic tinkering, surely, you figured out who the primogenitor is?  You had to match the gene seed up against something, right?"

Cawl "lmao get fethed loser.  Take your marines and go lose another homeworld or whatever it is you do."

Edited October 27, 2020 by durdle-durdle