What if Sanguinary Guard don't get 3 wounds?

[Paikis]

I think if they do go to 3W, then it becomes a complete no-brainer to take them, so I'm not going to worry too much about that. The difference between 2W and 3W is massive, requiring either anti-vehicle weapons or almost double the amount of 2W shots to be put into them.

I'm more interested in what people think will happen if they stay at 2W? At that point, Death Company and VanVets look like the way to go at 2W. More wounds tends to increase the value of Invuln saves, and 2W Stormshield VanVets look like they'll be very tough to get rid of and they're not going to be any less killy.

DC again have the built-in invuln save that really didn't do anything against 2W damage, only saving 1 out of every 12 dead marines... now with 2W it will save 1 out of every 4 marines! DC are (I think) going to be the biggest beneficiary of 2W marines out of all the codexes, and I actually think they will replace SG completely if SG don't get 2W, even with VanVets becoming incredibly hard to move.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

 

EDIT: Updated title to more accurately relate to thread content.

Edited August 31, 2020 by Paikis
Title edit

[Silverson]

It all comes down to points cost, if death company with jump pack and two wounds goes up to 25-28 points then I think it’s close with sanguinary guard as they are now.

 

Problem is then the units seems be a bit to similar, as your volume of attacks becomes closer to the sanguinary guard for the same points. And a thunder hammer on a 25-28 point marine with a 3+ 6++ is a lot of points.

 

TLDR the units we expect to be good are only good if they aren’t pointed out of the imperium

[Karhedron]

2W Sanguinary Guard seem obsolete to me. VanVets with a Storm Shield will also get a 2+ save and a 4++ (assuming the new Storm Shield rules from Indomitus are rolled out across the whole SM range).

 

DC will be a bit more brittle but a 6+++ will indeed go a lot further on 2W models and the stratagem to boost them to a 5+++ will be seriously worth using. That is approaching Death Guard levels of durability on a fast, hitty melee unit.

 

Whether SG get 3W and what the final points costs work out to be will crucial. I have just finished painting my 10-man SG squad so I fully expect them to be nerfed into the ground.

[Spagunk]

I mean, before 9th the one thing that was endearing to SG was the extra wound and 2+. If they leave it at 2w, there's not much going for them other than having their small set of strats. It just would be in poor taste, especially because they received a hike AND their weapons were normalize vs. power fist.

I think it's highly likely to be 3w but I would be very sad if it stayed 2w.

[Indefragable]

What everyone else said above.

 

Personally, I would like to see SG become far more defensive in nature, with Heirs to Azkaelion providing re-rolls to saving throws instead of To Hit and Death Masks providing a 5++. They are the hard to kill contrast to the balls-to-the-wall DC. VV are the middle option with a balance of both. Just my take. 

[Morticon]

If GW use the precedent they set in the crusade rules for Master Crafted armour - in this case master crafted artificer armour- these guys will be perfect at 2W !! 

 

Lets hope they have that foresight!!!  

 

(For info, if you're unaware,  MCA gives +1 to the armour save roll - meaning they have an effective 1+ save - making them very, very good against small-medium arms fire.)

[SnorriSnorrison]

Hey Mort, not sure that MC armour does that right now, does it? SG simply have a 2+ armour save and the MCA relic provides a 2+ save and a 5++ invulnerable save...you might be thinking about the new shield rules if I haven’t missed anything! And that’s possible. :)

[Morticon]

Hey Mort, not sure that MC armour does that right now, does it? SG simply have a 2+ armour save and the MCA relic provides a 2+ save and a 5++ invulnerable save...you might be thinking about the new shield rules if I haven’t missed anything! And that’s possible.

 

That's Artificer Armour ^_^ 

 

Master Crafted Armour is a relic/ability in the Crusade rule-set. 

 

MCAA would be sick, tbh.  2+/5++, +1save. 

[SnorriSnorrison]

 

 

Hey Mort, not sure that MC armour does that right now, does it? SG simply have a 2+ armour save and the MCA relic provides a 2+ save and a 5++ invulnerable save...you might be thinking about the new shield rules if I haven’t missed anything! And that’s possible.

That's Artificer Armour ^_^

 

Master Crafted Armour is a relic/ability in the Crusade rule-set.

 

MCAA would be sick, tbh. 2+/5++, +1save.

Oh snap! Good catch. :D

 

Artificer/Master Crafted armour was used synonymously in the past, if I remember correctly. ^^

 

Crusade is the new narrative system though, right?

[Morticon]

yessir!

[FormelyKnownAsSmashyPants]

If they actually end up with artificer armour like that which is available in the relic section of BoB with 2+ 5++ rather than simply 2+, that very well could become their niche. Van Vets would be the all rounders, being able to be tailored to tuff multi wound enemies, anti horde, or a mix there of, with the option of survivability if you take shields. Death Coy would be anti horde with the 6+++ which makes the potentially save against mortal wounds. And Sang Guard could be tanky and good at taking on tuff multi wound stuff.

 

Edit: could be mistaken, but I believe when playing Crusade, Crusade relics can't be applied to wargear that already has relic status. So armour can only be articicer armour or master crafted armour, and not both. Perhaps someone else could chime in and let us know if this is incorrect.

Edited September 1, 2020 by Captain Smashy Pants

[SnorriSnorrison]

To the topic at hand, if SG do not gain the extra wound on top of their 2W statline, I'd personally find it hard to justify them in a 2W marine environment. They’re surprisingly fragile for a unit that wants to get up close even with 2+ armour. Vanguard Veterans have better utility and can delete tougher units and survive, while DC really just delete any target turn 1. The price increase hasn’t been too kind on them, and without the 3rd wound I’d not be sure if they’ll see much use.

 

Actually, my preference would be to give all of them 4 wounds and reduce their squad size to 4 or 5, from 2. No Primaris treatment and why would they, but they’d get the actual feel of being heroes of the chapter with stat lines closer to characters than other marines. Also, 3 attacks base, in this case.

 

Unless you’re running Wrath of Baal and a 10 -men blob down the field, I’d rather they had pistols instead of assault bolters so they could fire while in combat. Or, another thought, extend range of the Angelus Boltgun to 18”. If a heavy bolt pistol can have that, so should an actual boltgun.

[Vermintide]

They still wouldn't have an invuln, they'd still be T4, and they'd probably end up costing similar to Assault Terminators for the privilege. They'll still have the banner thing but you have to build around that, and it's going to become much more of a point sink if so. They might be better off staying at 2W and being a little bit cheaper, methinks.

 

The more I think about it the more I kinda feel like DC will be the better choice at 2W even if SG get 3W. I feel like a case might even be made for Assault Terminators deep striking near/onto objectives to clear them out, and then being a serious pain to remove, will prove to be more valuable than either in a lot of cases.

[The Unseen]

If they get 3 wounds and stay around their current price they'll be good.

Similar output as terminators, similar price, trading the invuln for a jump pack is a wash more or less, they both have decent unique strats but nothing crazy, they do get descent of angels making SG the best for a reserve drop straight into combat.

 

If they get any pricier and/or stay at 2 wounds they'll have to he absurdly cheap to compete against DC, Vanguard Vets, and Termies.

Vanguard will be rocking stormshields, DC have volume of attacks and the best strats, and termies will be significantly more durable.

[Indefragable]

Best case scenario and we're spoilt for choice with 3W SG and 3W Terminators, et al.... The trade-off will always be the mobility and in-built re-rolls of the SG. SG--as is in 8th+ -- are meant to be the pseudo-Death Star unit surrounding your WL smashing in the chin. 

 

I'm a broken record, but the biggest downside for SG (and Meph...) is the lack of native invuln. For units that want to take on the enemy's scariest stuff their surprisingly fragile. Even just think of a match up of them--the ELITE of the Chapter, hand-picked, etc--vs Bladeguard and who would you put your money on? 

[Karhedron]

The question then becomes what level of Invuln would you like to see the SG get? Terminators only get a 5++ stock so it would be difficult to justify giving the SG more. That in turn means that a 5++ would only kick again when gacing AP-4 or better. That is Melta, Hellblasters and maybe one or two other weapons. Even against Lascannons or regular plasma, SG still get a 5+ save (or 4+ if you have managed to get them into cover).

 

If you really want a 5++ there is always "Shield of Sanguinius". To be honest, I think they are generally better with the Standard of Sacrifice. However I would not be entirely surprised to see this relic either nerfed or toned down in 9th edition simply because everyone always take it.

[momerathe]

Without 3W they'll be DOA. With 3W I think they'll still be good - there's going to be a lot more flat 2D weaponry going around; I think people will find the new 2W marines to have much less of a survivability boost that it might seem at first (and numarines will see a step down). 

 

Problem with Bladeguard is that they need a transport. Also the fixed 3-man squad size to be a bit awkward, but that may change. 

[Vermintide]

I think people are getting the wrong end of the stick with Bladeguard, they're scary good stat-wise so I don't expect their unit sizes to go up, and I strongly suspect they'll get a wound-intercepting bodyguard type rule. On paper they are hard as nails but I doubt we'll see people seriously using blobs of them to charge up field in transports, and just in general, running assault units from transports is frankly never as good as it sounds in theory.

 

My money is on every army in the game getting some sort of shield drone-type thing for HQs, but that's just pure speculation based on the rules and detachment changes making HQs both rarer and yet more vulnerable. Which brings us back around to the Sanguinary Guard, because that's what they started life as, essentially, as a BA specific command squad.