Successors and the New Codex

[Cpt_Reaper]

Ahoy denizens of The Rock,

 

I was discussing plans for my Chapter with the upcoming Codex and Supplement and a thought occurred. Perhaps those of us playing Successors might get access to the Chapter Master, Chief Librarian, Chief Apothecary, Master of Sanctity and, dare I say, Master of the Forge stratagems.

 

Additionally, we may also get access to the Trait System but I am not familiar with how Traits work when Supplements are involved. As I understand it you can take Scions of the primarch to get all benefits of the First Founding Chapter, but so far I am uncertain if this extends to unique units as well.

 

What are the thoughts on this? Likely to occur or will Successors of the Dark Angels remain as we are, without these characters and having to play "Dark Angels that aren't green"?

[aura_enchanted]

I think a likely scenario is that we won't get access to stuff like master of the forge and master of sanctity and we will be instead directed to just run a new asmodai or notezekiel.

 

And that the master of the forge simply won't be made available due to the master of the rock being ya know.. hard wired to the rock

 

A curious thing is that we are getting Centurions out of this more then likely. A subtle change to the webstore has added Centurions to our list

Edited September 3, 2020 by aura_enchanted

[Bryan Blaire]

If your Keyword isn't whatever the requirement for the unit is, then you can't take it, period - so it will still be that if you want a DA specific character, you'll have to play DA Keyword. The units themselves may be more open, but if there's any actual DA specific units defined and keyword locked, then you would still have to play DA Keyword to take them. There's nothing about the Trait system that changes any of that.

[Cpt_Reaper]

So in theory I could lose Deathwing and Ravenwing by running a Successor?

[Bryan Blaire]

So in theory I could lose Deathwing and Ravenwing by running a Successor?

Depends on how it is set up in the Supplement - I doubt they will do that.

 

But let's say that there is some special Deathwing unit, take maybe the Deathwing Knights, that GW says "The following unit cannot have its Keyword replaced to a Successor Keyword" (similar to what they say for the named Characters) - then no, you wouldn't have access to that unit unless you used the DA Keyword.

 

Low likelihood, but still possible. It all depends on how GW wants to word/write things.

[Cpt_Reaper]

Then fingers crossed they give, rather than take.

[Bryan Blaire]

Yes, if they are going to do something like that, then I would hope it would be for a totally new unit type they made up for the new Supplement, rather than something people likely already have a squad or two painted up in their army.

[Closet Skeleton]

Currently loyalist marine chapters are in two boats.

 

1. Codex Space Marines + Chapter Supplement + PA: Faith and Fury

 

2. Grey Knights/Blood Angels/Dark Angels/Space Wolves/Deathwatch + PA: Ritual of the Damned/Blood of Baal/Saga of the Beast/White Dwarf

 

Released information is that Grey Knights will be left alone in the second boat while the first one gets bigger.

 

There are only 5 non-unique units that exist in the first category. Cenobyte Servitors, Crusader Squads, Biker Khans, Tyranic War Veterans and Honour Guard. The first two are BT only and the Khan isn't available to White Scars successors which seems like an oversight rather than something we can draw a conclusion from. The last two are from the Ultramarine book which I've never read.

 

Currently first category Successors get custom traits from Codex Space Marines and then all warlord traits, stratagems, psychic powers, super doctrine, half the relics and none of the units from a supplement. One of the custom traits is Inheritors of the Primarch which gives a non-custom trait and makes you the parent chapter but worse but still not in as bad a way as second category successors.

 

Dark/Blood Angels successors are in a garbage category where they're almost unplayable due to having no real relic choice. It would be weird if you were able to make a custom trait Blood Angels successor without Red Thirst and even weirder if you were able to get +1 to wound in first turn of melee with a Dark Angels or Imperial Fist successor so I don't know what to expect. I can't see Dark/Blood Angels keeping their large relic lists and getting full access to core book relics but would be very happy for my Blood Angels Successors to get core book relics.

 

I think a likely scenario is that we won't get access to stuff like master of the forge and master of sanctity and we will be instead directed to just run a new asmodai or notezekiel.

 

Ultramarines and others can use those stratagems despite having overlapping special characters so if DA work the same way then you'll be able to make any Librarian a Chief Librarian as long as Ezekiel is absent from the army. Only exception right now is Black Templars can't take Chapter Champions. Ultramarines have been able to take non-Marneus Chapter Masters since practically the start of 8th.

Edited September 3, 2020 by Closet Skeleton

[jaxom]

Successors will be like successors for any other Chapter. I think the only larger issue will be how DW and RW are done; then, how successors fit into that.

[Berzul]

Maybe GW will just stick to what they have done until now.

 

That is, Successors just change the keyword, but for all intents and purposes are the same Chapter as the DA, save that they can't take relics other than the Heavenfall Blade, and can't take named characters.

[JJD]

It never sat well that if you play a key word successor you can’t take the names characters but also have no way to make your own. I hope that it is looked at so people can properly make there own successor ary and not just DA in a different paint scheme.

[Berzul]

What has always made little sense to me, about successors (and I even play a custom one, not even an official one), is that we are just DA with another color. In the sense that, we still have Deathwing and Ravenwing units.

 

As far as I see it and understand it, although successors might follow up on the training and battle doctrines of the progenitor chapter, the Deathwing and the Ravenwing are very much unique formations to the Dark Angels themselves. Created by virtue of their history and culture; with histories and cultures being different chapter to chapter, even along the same genetic lineage.

 

With these units being "unique" or "special" units to a specific chapter, their successors having them in the same abundance, is something that feels weird to me. We are not talking about the standard array of units and weapons that the armories of every chapter provides, but rather the legendary, unique, special, kind of one of a kind units that make that chapter what it is, at least in part.

[Bryan Blaire]

I don't think that GW is going to somehow screw over Unforgiven players by taking away any current DW or RW analogs those Successors would have, that would be silly and counter to how the Unforgiven operate. So I think that doesn't even need to be speculated over (and wasn't what I was trying to say either).

 

I think with the Supplement method, the Unforgiven Successors will likely be subject to the same CP upgrade characters (from the main SM Codex and Faith and Fury) as any other Successors, and those named characters will be locked with their Keywords already to prevent you from trying to have multiple upgrade types if you are playing Dark Angels - no dual Chapter Masters (well, Supreme Grand Masters), Masters of Sanctity (if they give the DA Sapphon), etc. Unforgiven Successors should be able to get their own Masters of the Forge - theirs aren't tied to the Rock.

 

However, we will have to wait and see how GW logic works in all of this. There's no way to know for sure exactly what the situation will look like, short of someone massively leaking a copy of the Supplement.

[WrathOfTheLion]

The Deathwing and Ravenwing were core formations to the 1st Legion, so it would entirely make sense that elements of those wings of the Hexagrammaton would have made their way into all of the 2nd founding successor chapters. Others following would be trained in those formations.

 

I do not think that those units will be taken away from the Unforgiven successors. However, of interest to me is how will the Primaris successors be organized?

It seems straightforward that they will have Bladeguard stuff for their Deathwing/1st Company, but who will lead their Ravenwing/2nd Company?

Edited September 3, 2020 by WrathOfTheLion

[Berzul]

I do not expect them to be taken away either, but it certainly makes for a weird situation for the successors for the DA. Again, we are just DAs in another color. This actually has an impact in game, where successors honestly do not play as successors, but as DA.

 

It is my case... I have not-Azrael leading not-Deathwing and not-Ravenwing, in a not-Dark Angels force, all the time.

[WrathOfTheLion]

The way I would see them operating is:

* Unique datasheets, like interrogator-chaplains, deathwing knights, talonmasters, etc. are available to all successors

* Characters are not available to successors, so no Sammael, etc.

* All those characters upgrade strategems are available to successors, and possibly even to DA for things like techmarine or I guess Master of the Sanctity while there is no Sapphon.

* Maybe some new datasheets, like a Ravenwing master on bike that are available to successors, but not to DA proper. Although I would like to see the ability to have a generic one for DA to be able to represent the chapter in M36 or something.

 

According to the DA codex, all successors should be organized with the specialist companies, as it even puts in the timeline when the Angels of Absolution and other 2nd founding chapters had done so. That can be altered in your fluff, but I think crunch-wise they will adhere to such and even show how the Primaris successors are now organized with those formations.

 

I think the main thing that successors are missing is the ability to just field their chapter master, equivalent Ravenwing master, etc. Which hopefully will be addressed. But if the rules for successors are based on the current Codex Space Marines rules, I would think they would have to address this.

Edited September 3, 2020 by WrathOfTheLion

[UtariOnzo]

I expect it to work much the same as the current SM codex and suppliments does, with a generic DA trait one can select along with generic successor choices in the main codex (for non-Unforgiven descendants) and then the suppliment provides for specific Unforgiven formations, DA/Unforgiven traits and doctrine and DA characters (maybe even alternative trait to a select official successor/successors). The Character upgrades to me could also represent historical or potential/alternative leaders for the first founding chapters, for if you plan to have a force based anywhere in the 40k timeline, just as much as being tools for competitive players Edited September 3, 2020 by UtariOnzo