Fighting Doctrine of Primaris only Chapters

[GreyCrow]

In the fluff, there are several Primaris only Chapters. I was curious if you guys knew what were their specific fighting doctrines ?

 

Mostly regarding the battleline squads, where I feel that the Intercessors would not be effective with the current mono weapon setup.

Do they replicate Tactical squads but with Primaris only Marines rather than having standard Intercessor squads ?

They are just not “flexible” enough due to the limited weapon options and the inability to bring anti tank heavy weapons.

 

From my tabletop experience, I’ve had great results with Primaris as a support of Firstborn units, especially Tacticals as core Troops. It’s only going to get more obvious once Tacticals are bumped to 2W.

 

So, curious to know if anybody had some insights on how Primaris only Chapters are organized in fighting.

 

Thanks !

[Lord_Caerolion]

We can look at how the old Legions operated, given they had the same single-weapon squad load-outs. In short, much more combined-arms, a core of bolt-weapon armed Battleline squads supported by anti-tank heavy weapon squads, and anti-infantry assault squads.

[Dracos]

Problem is that those combination of units didn’t exist until recently and we don’t know if they will work for Primaris on the table top. While the Indomitus box has brought us closer, I’m fairly certain any competitive player will agree that units of three don’t have the durability to be anything much more than a glass cannon in the current meta.

[GreyCrow]

But the Primaris don’t really have Anti Tank heavy weapons squads really (the Hellblasters are mostly anti heavy Infantry)

[Dumah]

Eradicators would count, no?

[Lord_Caerolion]

Problem is that those combination of units didn’t exist until recently and we don’t know if they will work for Primaris on the table top. While the Indomitus box has brought us closer, I’m fairly certain any competitive player will agree that units of three don’t have the durability to be anything much more than a glass cannon in the current meta.

 

Oh, I understand entirely. Still, this is how they're meant to work in the fluff, even if that doesn't translate to being effective on the table-top. 

[N1SB]

So, curious to know if anybody had some insights on how Primaris only Chapters are organized in fighting.

 

Brother, I know you were asking from a tabletop perspective, but despite that or because of it, I think you nailed on the most interesting question for any post-Indomitus army, for Liber write-ups, for Crusade narrative armies, for Black Library novels about custom Chapters, pure-Primaris or otherwise.

 

My favourite moments in ADB's Spears of the Emperor deal with, not just his custom Chapter's characteristics, but how they got to be that way.  Very minor spoiler:

 

Their 1st Primaris Marine would make a point that he's not their 1st Primaris, he's their 1st surviving Primaris, while all the previous attempts rest in a place of sadness, not shame.  God, I love that bit, because it shows there was a lot of growing to do, both physically and figuratively.  It's not about combat doctrines per se, but it's about how they transition.

 

But Imma answer your question to the best of my ability!  In 1 (albeit slightly broadly generalised) sentence:

 

The Primaris-only Chapters probably started fighting like Horus Heresy-era Legions, BUT only as the Techpriest Belisarius Cawl understood them.

 

I don't know if this is a controversial point or not, but I don't think it is as it's not surprising, that everything related to the Primaris (i.e. has the <Primaris> Keyword) came from this 1 very specific, pretty eccentric Techpriest who didn't spend much time with Marines when he got the gig.  He literally inherited the job AND the knowledge (it's a spoiler to explain how, but the answers are in Guy Haley's The Great Work).  Which explains a lot.

 

Like Hellblasters, for example.  As pointed out, 30k/HH/AoD Marines didn't just have Special Weapons, they had whole Special Weapon Squads, where everyone there would get Plasma Guns.  But Brother GreyCrow's spot on, so far we haven't seen a Heavy Weapons Squad or Anti-Tank equivalent among the Primaris.  Maybe they have yet to get those, like we just got Assault Intercessors now.

 

But it may also be because Belisarius Cawl didn't believe in Heavy Weapons Squads.  He might think Anti-Tank is best performed by other Tanks, thus his Repulsors, it might not even occur to him to give Primaris giant-sized Lascannons.  So much is so dependent on his designs when he got onboard The Great Work.  He's got his own way of doing things, famously so.

 

Around that time, even Roboute Guilliman himself was already re-thinking the whole approach to Space Marine warfare because he found the old Legion ways made them too predictable, especially to Traitor Astartes who had used the same playbook.  There's a great short story where Guilliman is actually working on an early manuscript of the Codex Astartes, and he's brainstorming aloud and drops the word "tactical" into the conversation, like he was coming up with the Tactical Squad on the spot.  But despite the Primaris being dubbed "The Primarch's Gift", they're really "Cawl's Great Work", and even if Guilliman had told Cawl what to do...Cawl's a really stubborn guy, and he outright doesn't listen to Guilliman a lot of times.

 

So it's like a Techpriest who's not a Space Marine designing how Space Marines should fight...at 1st.

 

In Guy Haley's Dark Imperium, one of the major Primaris characters, Decimus Felix, reflects on how that kinda didn't work.  "Mistakes were made" was his line of thinking, but the Primaris did learn, they did adapt.  It took time...and many lives...to make those changes, but imho it's very interesting and defining for a Chapter.  So clearly the Primaris are learning, but there's a lot of stuff very ingrained, Cawl was like playing combat training videos to them in their cryo sleep.

 

I'm actually a little bit burnt out on Warhammer with this huge build-up (happened to me before 8th as well), but this whole idea of the growing pains of the Primaris is so fascinating to me.  GW's game design studio and Black Library are like Belisarius Cawl, designing how they think things should be in a bubble, but you guys will be like the Primaris, learning how to adapt those tools on the actual playing field.  And that's going to be more fun to watch.

[UnkyHamHam]

 

 

So, curious to know if anybody had some insights on how Primaris only Chapters are organized in fighting.

Brother, I know you were asking from a tabletop perspective, but despite that or because of it, I think you nailed on the most interesting question for any post-Indomitus army, for Liber write-ups, for Crusade narrative armies, for Black Library novels about custom Chapters, pure-Primaris or otherwise.

 

My favourite moments in ADB's Spears of the Emperor deal with, not just his custom Chapter's characteristics, but how they got to be that way. Very minor spoiler:

 

Their 1st Primaris Marine would make a point that he's not their 1st Primaris, he's their 1st surviving Primaris, while all the previous attempts rest in a place of sadness, not shame. God, I love that bit, because it shows there was a lot of growing to do, both physically and figuratively. It's not about combat doctrines per se, but it's about how they transition.

 

But Imma answer your question to the best of my ability! In 1 (albeit slightly broadly generalised) sentence:

 

The Primaris-only Chapters probably started fighting like Horus Heresy-era Legions, BUT only as the Techpriest Belisarius Cawl understood them.

 

I don't know if this is a controversial point or not, but I don't think it is as it's not surprising, that everything related to the Primaris (i.e. has the <Primaris> Keyword) came from this 1 very specific, pretty eccentric Techpriest who didn't spend much time with Marines when he got the gig. He literally inherited the job AND the knowledge (it's a spoiler to explain how, but the answers are in Guy Haley's The Great Work). Which explains a lot.

 

Like Hellblasters, for example. As pointed out, 30k/HH/AoD Marines didn't just have Special Weapons, they had whole Special Weapon Squads, where everyone there would get Plasma Guns. But Brother GreyCrow's spot on, so far we haven't seen a Heavy Weapons Squad or Anti-Tank equivalent among the Primaris. Maybe they have yet to get those, like we just got Assault Intercessors now.

 

But it may also be because Belisarius Cawl didn't believe in Heavy Weapons Squads. He might think Anti-Tank is best performed by other Tanks, thus his Repulsors, it might not even occur to him to give Primaris giant-sized Lascannons. So much is so dependent on his designs when he got onboard The Great Work. He's got his own way of doing things, famously so.

 

Around that time, even Roboute Guilliman himself was already re-thinking the whole approach to Space Marine warfare because he found the old Legion ways made them too predictable, especially to Traitor Astartes who had used the same playbook. There's a great short story where Guilliman is actually working on an early manuscript of the Codex Astartes, and he's brainstorming aloud and drops the word "tactical" into the conversation, like he was coming up with the Tactical Squad on the spot. But despite the Primaris being dubbed "The Primarch's Gift", they're really "Cawl's Great Work", and even if Guilliman had told Cawl what to do...Cawl's a really stubborn guy, and he outright doesn't listen to Guilliman a lot of times.

 

So it's like a Techpriest who's not a Space Marine designing how Space Marines should fight...at 1st.

 

In Guy Haley's Dark Imperium, one of the major Primaris characters, Decimus Felix, reflects on how that kinda didn't work. "Mistakes were made" was his line of thinking, but the Primaris did learn, they did adapt. It took time...and many lives...to make those changes, but imho it's very interesting and defining for a Chapter. So clearly the Primaris are learning, but there's a lot of stuff very ingrained, Cawl was like playing combat training videos to them in their cryo sleep.

 

I'm actually a little bit burnt out on Warhammer with this huge build-up (happened to me before 8th as well), but this whole idea of the growing pains of the Primaris is so fascinating to me. GW's game design studio and Black Library are like Belisarius Cawl, designing how they think things should be in a bubble, but you guys will be like the Primaris, learning how to adapt those tools on the actual playing field. And that's going to be more fun to watch.

Single most compelling description and reasoning behind the many Primaris plot related issues I've ever heard.

 

It actually almost makes me think GW is/was clever for creating Cawl as a proxy to hide their mistakes behind. Bravo on all of this.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

In the fluff, there are several Primaris only Chapters. I was curious if you guys knew what were their specific fighting doctrines ?

 

Mostly regarding the battleline squads, where I feel that the Intercessors would not be effective with the current mono weapon setup.

Do they replicate Tactical squads but with Primaris only Marines rather than having standard Intercessor squads ?

They are just not “flexible” enough due to the limited weapon options and the inability to bring anti tank heavy weapons.

 

From my tabletop experience, I’ve had great results with Primaris as a support of Firstborn units, especially Tacticals as core Troops. It’s only going to get more obvious once Tacticals are bumped to 2W.

 

So, curious to know if anybody had some insights on how Primaris only Chapters are organized in fighting.

 

Thanks !

The problem with answering this question is that alot of the new releases are probably going to be described fluffwise as being part of primaris forces from the start. So it's going to be a bit of a moving target. For example anti tank has been been a hole in the range but eradicators, new land speeders, and gladiators will shore that up in hurry.

 

Hopefully the new codex breaks down an ultima founding chapter.

Edited September 6, 2020 by Jorin Helm-splitter

[Mandragola]

It’s an interesting idea that the Primaris line has been designed by an engineer. You could argue that the core principle behind the Primaris line is “you had one job!”

 

That is to say, each unit is Intended to do a single function. They’re designed very much like components of a machine. Each unit has one function that it can perform very werll, but they’re unable to perform other functions at all.

 

That’s a clear difference with the idea of a “tactical” squad. The point of that unit is to be able to do anything reasonably well, not one job very well. It’s a unit set up to take part in smalle engagements, quite possibly alone, whereas the Primaris units are all designed to function as part of a larger battlegroup.

 

This starts to make less sense for the vanguard Primaris units. Real special forces units tend to be very well equipped- more so than tactical squads - so they can handle anything. Sending out a unit of something like reivers armed with just pistols and knives doesn’t make sense in any context I can think of, perhaps unless the enemy are all asleep.

[Spaced Hulk]

My head-canon for the evolution of Tactical squads, from the large squads of bolter armed troops of the Great Crusade to the smaller, more flexible 40k version, is that it was simply a reaction to the necessities of the times. During the Great Crusade, the Space Marine Legions were immense armies with many thousands of warriors. They could afford to have large blocks of basic infantry supported by specialist units because there were so many of them, and they operated in far larger formations.

 

After the Heresy, the number of loyal Space Marines was greatly reduced. The division of the Legions into Chapters was necessary not just to limit their power and the potential consequences of that power, but also because the surviving Space Marines had to be spread thinly across the entire Imperium. They transformed from aggressive, crusading war hosts designed to conquer territory, to smaller, reactive strike forces that focused on defending that territory. And in that role, it made sense to have the majority of their warriors function as well equipped generalists, as much of the time they would be operating on their own and without support. If you think about it, even Devastators are just a more heavily armed version of a Tactical Squad, compared to the highly specialised Heavy Support squads of the 30k era.

 

Similarly, I see the introduction of Primaris, lore-wise, as a reinforcement, not as a replacement, to the existing Space Marine forces. Intercessors are dedicated riflemen, designed to supplement Tactical squads, rather than completely replace them.

 

From a gaming point of view, I think it's important to remember that GW doesn't distinguish between Firstborn and Primaris anywhere near as much as the player base does, and probably consider them all as simply Space Marines to be used as combined forces. The Primaris only Chapters of the Ultima Founding are in a bit of a weird place, because until the Primaris range is fully fleshed out, they're obviously going to seem limited and tactically inflexible. But that's a problem which is going to decrease more and more, because GW is obviously going to continue releasing Primaris units indefinitely. The introduction of Primaris, in my opinion, is not just about rescaling and refreshing the Marine range, but also about opening up design space for GW's best selling product line.

 

One last point: I honestly can't see GW abandoning the concepts of Tactical, Assault, Devastator and Terminator squads. They just seem too iconic and integral to the Space Marine range. If Firstborn, or classic marines, or whatever you want to call them do eventually get retired (assuming we don't simply get a rescaled version like the Chaos range, which is also a possibility), I think it's highly likely we'll see new Primaris versions of those classic units to replace them. In terms of the lore, GW could even explain it as the Chapters adapting their stockpiles of weapons and armour to equip the new generations of Space Marines. Considering the relic nature of almost all Astartes wargear, and the desperate times the Imperium now finds itself in, it seems highly unlikely that such valuable equipment would be discarded or left to gather dust. In fact, you could use that argument for the continued production of Firstborn marines, as existing Chapters (not Ultima Founding ones obviously) would have geneseed repositories that may not be able to be converted to the Second Generation, and why would such valuable genetic material be allowed to go to waste?

 

Only time will tell

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

Around that time, even Roboute Guilliman himself was already re-thinking the whole approach to Space Marine warfare because he found the old Legion ways made them too predictable, especially to Traitor Astartes who had used the same playbook.  There's a great short story where Guilliman is actually working on an early manuscript of the Codex Astartes, and he's brainstorming aloud and drops the word "tactical" into the conversation, like he was coming up with the Tactical Squad on the spot.  B

 

That actually somewhat frustrating, and suggests whoever wrote that story about Gulliman didn't actually know the Heresy era Legion organisational fluff that well. There's nothing revolutionary about Gulliman using the word 'tactical' because the Legions already had a Tactical Squad. That's what they called the 10-20 man bolter squads. They also already had a form what we recognise as the '40k Tac Squad' (ie. mostly basic bolter dudes plus a couple of special/heavy weapons) in the Legion Veteran squad. So Gulliman didn't actually create the Tac squad with the Codex, he just took what had been a niche set up and applied it more universally.

[jaxom]

Don’t forget that lore and tabletop don’t mesh as well nowadays regarding plasma as an antitank weapon. In HH games a squad of 5 plasmaguns has a good chance of wrecking light and medium vehicles.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

Yeah plasma is fluff wise an anti-tank weapon. I do think with this wave that will have a pretty good ideal of how they are organized, because I don't really see another big wave coming after it. That and the codex may spotlight an ultima chapter which would help alot.

[jaxom]

Bell of Lost Souls had an interesting article about how the author would approach the organization of a Codex all Primaris Chapter.

 

https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2019/08/warhammer-40k-organization-of-a-primaris-chapter-prime-bonus.html

 

It's before the latest wave of releases and I think the Gladiator, Eridaticators, and Outrides would change some stuff up.

[FelipeFlops]

The book Blade Oath by Andy Clark following the Silver Templars has multiple occasions of mixed squads even to the point of having Gravis and Intercessors in the same 'teams'. 

 

A lot of the conflicts depicted in the book also show that squads if Intercessors, Hellblasters and Aggressors were always working together in a Combined Arms style operation, so while a specific squad might not have the right weapon for the job, you can bet someone in their task force did. 

[GreyCrow]

Thanks very much guys ! Great topics so far, and food for thought !

 

The thought came after a game I had with a friend where I fielded my OG Marines after several years and was struck by how effective the Tacticals are.

 

From your comments and your quotes from the book, it’s very interesting to see that multiple squad types operate in close proximity to one another. Personal expérience with the Primaris (where I used to focus on 1 type of squad supported by large battleline squads) wasn’t like this and in effect it didn’t work well.

 

Perhaps I should be trying more variety, as someone mentioned, it’s sure to have THE effective tool that is needed for the job at any given time, and see more “downtime” during the rest of the battle.

 

It’s an interesting take on the Marines army. I’m currently revamping my Primaris force, so thanks very much for all the tips and advice here !