Carcharodons in 9th edition?

[Bulwyf]

Are they a playable army in 9th? I seem to recall there was  a wait for FW rules to be converted by GW rules team. I seem to recall that a player can basically pick whatever successor they want to be since the Space Sharks are rumored to be Raven Guard or Night lords or a chimeric blend of the two. 

 

Just curious. A friend was wanting to try out Space Sharks after reading Red Tithe and wanted to proxy some of my Space Wolves for the experiment. He asked about what to pick for them in terms of traits and secondaries and I was a total loss. Appreciate any help.

 

[Gederas]

They're still playable, yes. We're currently waiting on new 9E rules for all Forge World units, but their Chapter Master's rules are in the FW Index for the Space Marines (if you can find it).

 

This is what Carcharodons Chapter Tactics were originally in 7th: all Space Marines models Fear, and allows Tactical marines to replace their bolters with a chainsword or keep it and buy an additional close combat weapon for 1pt each. In addition they gain Rage after destroying or forcing an infantry unit to fallback in close combat, however they must consolidate towards the nearest unit

 

For custom successor tactics: Whirlwind of Rage is an absolute must here. Great choices for your second Tactic include Hunger for Battle, to get into melee ASAP, or Tactical Withdrawal, to keep Shock Assault up and working for you. Fearsome Aspect is a fluffy, if not as brutal option as the others and emulates their original 7E tactics giving them Fear.

 

Ironically, despite being basically confirmed to be Raven Guard successors.... Running them as a White Scars successor is the best way for how they fight.

[redmapa]

They used to have rules for them in Imperial Armor and the PDFs that FW released to update those rules. In those their rules were Fear and every infantry squad could get a CCW for +1pt, so +1A, and after destroying a unit in close combat they gained Rage so another +1A (or two) on the charge. Personally I think the successor system is really good for these chapters and you can recreate the previous tactics or make one similar. 

 

They are a Raven Guard successor but their doctrine doesnt work particularly well for a close combat army but the other doctrine that does is White Scars, personally I would just use Raven Guard doctrine to pick off support characters before charging, its an interesting mix at least. As for the tactics probably Hungry for Battle and Whirlwind of Rage so they can get the most of deep striking units like Terminators. 

[Bulwyf]

Appreciate the help. The only specific model they have is the Chapter Master with the two lightning claws from FW? That sounds like a custom job since I would assume he would be Primaris at this point since it seems all named SM characters have made that conversion.

[zero88]

Appreciate the help. The only specific model they have is the Chapter Master with the two lightning claws from FW? That sounds like a custom job since I would assume he would be Primaris at this point since it seems all named SM characters have made that conversion.

They're more like Chainclaws :D ..their fluff IIRC is that they operate with extremely limited resupply so there's no indication that Tyberos would be primaritized yet. But yes, they are still Space Marines so no matter what traits or doctrines you use they will be playable and probably stronger than any non-SM army. That's just the state of 40k right now...

Edited September 4, 2020 by zero88

[Gederas]

Appreciate the help. The only specific model they have is the Chapter Master with the two lightning claws from FW? That sounds like a custom job since I would assume he would be Primaris at this point since it seems all named SM characters have made that conversion.

Tyberos has Lightning Chainfists. And no, he wouldn't be Primaris because we haven't had any lore on them set post-Primaris.

 

Also "it seems all named SM characters have made that conversion" uhhhhhhh...... There's a lot that haven't. Actually, the vast majority haven't.

 

[Bulwyf]

 

Appreciate the help. The only specific model they have is the Chapter Master with the two lightning claws from FW? That sounds like a custom job since I would assume he would be Primaris at this point since it seems all named SM characters have made that conversion.

Tyberos has Lightning Chainfists. And no, he wouldn't be Primaris because we haven't had any lore on them set post-Primaris.

 

Also "it seems all named SM characters have made that conversion" uhhhhhhh...... There's a lot that haven't. Actually, the vast majority haven't.

 

 

 

I remember in the books they got them from another Chapter or so they claimed. Interesting. I think it was the second one. It has been a minute since I read them so forgive me if I don't remember if it was lightning claws or lightning chainfists lol.

 

I don't want to sidetrack into an argument over Primaris named characters. If you don't think there's been a curious amount of named SM characters suddenly become Primaris over the last year or so then I'll say nothing else. 

 

If my friend is going to jump into the deep end with Space Sharks I just want to give him accurate information. He asked if there was any other models specific to the chapter other than the hard to find FW model for Tyberos and I wanted to make sure he hadn't been updated since I last remembered to check. If the Red Wake is still a Firstborn that's fine. If they updated his model to be Primaris at some point it wouldn't surprise me. 

[Spinsanity]

If they updated his model to be Primaris at some point it wouldn't surprise me.

The chances that they ever do are very slim, actually. FW doesn’t just make rules and models out of the blue, the Carcharodon and Tyberius got rules because they featured in the Badab War series of books, and the Badab War is set a fair bit of time before the 13th Crusade and the apprarance of Primaris. He’s set in stone at that point in time and will remain so..

[Mandragola]

Space sharks are in a slightly odd place at the moment. We're told they like to use old equipment but I expect a lot of that would get edged out by new Primaris gear. Their aggressive fighting style sounds to me like it would result in quite high casualties, so you'd see a relatively fast replacement of firstborn units with Primaris, simply due to the old guys dying off. As with some other chapters in the fluff, that might result in a bit of a change in combat style.

 

It's debatable whether it makes sense to run them as Raven Guard successors in game. They aren't quite officially stated to be, and the rules don't particularly suit them. I've got a friend who runs them as space wolves so as to get access to melee weapons for grey hunters. There's less need for that now that assault intercessors have appeared. I think that basically leaves you free to use any rules you want.

 

As for Tyberos, we know he was Chapter Master during Badab. That's a long time before the current setting. Whether he's been upgraded to Primaris - or even survived at all - is up to your friend, not us. It's his army.

[Bulwyf]

Appreciate the feedback brothers. I know we already had the Primaris argument since the fluff states they like to use old gear but GW has stated multiple times all SM chapters have access to Primaris in the current timeline. With just how bloodthirsty the Carchardons are I have to agree that their casualty rate would be high enough to suggest Primaris reinforcement would already have taken place. 

[Gederas]

Appreciate the feedback brothers. I know we already had the Primaris argument since the fluff states they like to use old gear but GW has stated multiple times all SM chapters have access to Primaris in the current timeline. With just how bloodthirsty the Carchardons are I have to agree that their casualty rate would be high enough to suggest Primaris reinforcement would already have taken place. 

Imo, a good way to do it would be to look at the novel Spear of the Emperor. In that, the Emperor's Spears make utterly no distinction between Firstborn and Primaris. They're all Astartes.

 

That being said: Assault Intercessors and Auto-Bolt Rifle Intercessors are how I'd form the core of their force

[Bulwyf]

 

Appreciate the feedback brothers. I know we already had the Primaris argument since the fluff states they like to use old gear but GW has stated multiple times all SM chapters have access to Primaris in the current timeline. With just how bloodthirsty the Carchardons are I have to agree that their casualty rate would be high enough to suggest Primaris reinforcement would already have taken place. 

Imo, a good way to do it would be to look at the novel Spear of the Emperor. In that, the Emperor's Spears make utterly no distinction between Firstborn and Primaris. They're all Astartes.

 

That being said: Assault Intercessors and Auto-Bolt Rifle Intercessors are how I'd form the core of their force

 

 

With Red Wake and some assault termies tossed in there with some vehicles for anti armor? At least that's what my recommendations have been so far.

[Gederas]

Appreciate the feedback brothers. I know we already had the Primaris argument since the fluff states they like to use old gear but GW has stated multiple times all SM chapters have access to Primaris in the current timeline. With just how bloodthirsty the Carchardons are I have to agree that their casualty rate would be high enough to suggest Primaris reinforcement would already have taken place. 

Imo, a good way to do it would be to look at the novel Spear of the Emperor. In that, the Emperor's Spears make utterly no distinction between Firstborn and Primaris. They're all Astartes.

 

That being said: Assault Intercessors and Auto-Bolt Rifle Intercessors are how I'd form the core of their force

With Red Wake and some assault termies tossed in there with some vehicles for anti armor? At least that's what my recommendations have been so far.

Pretty much. Tyberos with some Assault Terminators (likely a mix of TH/SS and Lightning Claw) and Assault Intercessors is a nasty deathball.

 

I'd also say try some Eradicators as well for anti-armour, as well as Devastators.

 

And Carchardons, while loving melee, aren't a bunch of maddened berserkers. They do combat tactically and smartly.... It's just once they get into melee well... RIP AND TEAR. UNTIL IT IS DONE :lol:

[Gederas]

Also, apologies for the double post, but I also have a recommendation:

If you or your friend can get a hold of him, Brother Sanyctus from the Space Marine Heroes Series 2 set is perfect for kitbashing with Tyberos' actual model:

 

The reason I make this recommendation is that the Tyberos model is old and is a bit weedy compared to most Terminators, but he's got a very distinct look.

 

However, it'd be easy to remove the torso of each and put Tyberos upper body on Sanyctus' lower body. Then it'd just be removing the Terminator Honours on Sanyctus' left leg and putting the bonding studs onto both legs.

 

If I had realized this before I assembled both those models, I would have done it myself.

Edited September 4, 2020 by Gederas

[Bulwyf]

Random question: do Carchardons normal Intercessors get chainswords? I know my Space Wolf ones do in addition to their rifle. I'm trying to help build a 2k list for my friend and I can see the sarge can take one but what about the other 4 guys in the squad?

[Closet Skeleton]

Random question: do Carchardons normal Intercessors get chainswords? I know my Space Wolf ones do in addition to their rifle. I'm trying to help build a 2k list for my friend and I can see the sarge can take one but what about the other 4 guys in the squad?

 

Primaris Marines are just Primaris Marines no matter the chapter with the slight exception of Death Watch getting mixed squads.

 

Its only Intecessor Sergeants/Pack Leaders who have a chainsword option.

 

Grey Hunters have bolt guns, bolt pistols, grenades and a chainsword option. Intercessors are not Grey Hunters but can get an extra attack from the veteran stratagem (no idea how this will work past october).

 

Grey Hunters are still the only troops choice to get a chainsword and a rapid fire weapon.

[Bulwyf]

Thanks for the answer. I know you could take chainswords on Intercessors in 8th because it was an option for SW at least. I've played SW since they were a legal army so I know all about Grey Hunters!

 

Back to Space Sharks: he's got the indomitus box. He has a redemptor dred. The question he's asking is it worth it to get a Repulsor to carry the 10 assault marines and have some anti tank or go with 3 Impulsors for 10 assault marines and the bladeguard guys plus characters. I have no idea. I don't hate Repulsors like many do but their lack of an invuln save just like Land Raiders means they are usually dead turn 1. Looking for advise. 

[Dracos]

For 9e MSU is king for marines and smaller more numerous squads give you options one big squad doesn’t. It hurts when burning CP but that’s a good trade off in most peoples opinion

[Bulwyf]

For 9e MSU is king for marines and smaller more numerous squads give you options one big squad doesn’t. It hurts when burning CP but that’s a good trade off in most peoples opinion

 

yes, the 10 assault marines in the indomtius box are two squads of 10 I believe so the Repulsor would have 2 squads in it or 3 impulsors one squad in each plus the bladegaurd vets and characters from indomitus box set. Not sure which is better.

[Bulwyf]

Hammered out a 2k list. All this could change with the upcoming codex but it feels Carcharodon to me.

 

 

++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Imperium - Adeptus Astartes - White Scars) [98 PL, 12CP, 1,999pts] ++

 

+ Configuration +

 

**Chapter Selection**: Carcharodons, Hungry for Battle, Whirlwind of Rage, White Scars Successor

 

Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points) 

 

Detachment CP

 

+ HQ +

 

Primaris Captain (Indomitus) [5 PL, 105pts]

 

Primaris Chaplain [5 PL, 85pts]: 6. Canticle of Hate, Litany of Hate, Strike off the Head, The Honor Vehement

 

Tyberos the Red Wake [9 PL, 175pts]: The Imperium's Sword, Warlord

 

+ Troops +

 

Assault Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 100pts]

. 4x Assault Intercessor: 4x Astartes Chainsword, 4x Frag & Krak grenades, 4x Heavy Bolt Pistol

. Assault Intercessor Sgt: Plasma Pistol

 

Assault Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 100pts]

. 4x Assault Intercessor: 4x Astartes Chainsword, 4x Frag & Krak grenades, 4x Heavy Bolt Pistol

. Assault Intercessor Sgt: Plasma Pistol

 

Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 100pts]: Bolt rifle

. 4x Intercessor: 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Frag & Krak grenades

. Intercessor Sergeant: Chainsword

 

+ Elites +

 

Bladeguard Ancient [5 PL, 85pts]

 

Bladeguard Veteran Squad [5 PL, 105pts]: Bladeguard Veteran Sgt

. 2x Bladeguard Veteran: 2x Frag & Krak grenades, 2x Heavy Bolt Pistol, 2x Master-crafted Power Sword, 2x Storm Shield

 

Judiciar [4 PL, 85pts]

 

Redemptor Dreadnought [9 PL, 186pts]: 2x Storm Bolters, Heavy Onslaught Gatling Cannon, Icarus Rocket Pod, Onslaught Gatling Cannon

 

Terminator Assault Squad [9 PL, 210pts]

. Terminator Sergeant

. . Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield: Storm shield, Thunder hammer

. 4x Terminator w/THSS: 4x Storm shield, 4x Thunder hammer

 

+ Fast Attack +

 

Outrider Squad [6 PL, 135pts]: Outrider Sgt

. 2x Outrider: 2x Astartes Chainsword, 2x Frag & Krak grenades, 2x Heavy Bolt Pistol, 2x Twin Bolt rifle

 

+ Heavy Support +

 

Eradicator Squad [5 PL, 120pts]: Eradicator Sgt

. 2x Eradicator: 2x Bolt pistol, 2x Melta rifle

 

+ Dedicated Transport +

 

Impulsor [7 PL, 136pts]: 2x Storm Bolters, Ironhail Heavy Stubber, Shield Dome

 

Impulsor [7 PL, 136pts]: 2x Storm Bolters, Ironhail Heavy Stubber, Shield Dome

 

Impulsor [7 PL, 136pts]: 2x Storm Bolters, Ironhail Heavy Stubber, Shield Dome

 

++ Total: [98 PL, 12CP, 1,999pts] ++

 

Created with BattleScribe

[Bulwyf]

Appreciate any feedback or comments on above army list. I'm not saying it is the best but it is all the models the guy has or can get his hands on currently.

[Bulwyf]

I am 2-0 with the above list so far. Is there no way for Carcharodons to sneak in the Eradicators off the board edge like I can with them in Space Wolves? The 24 inch range on their guns and no ability to drop them in close to a vehicles means they just get focused and shot before they can really do much I'm finding.

[varchilde]

I am 2-0 with the above list so far. Is there no way for Carcharodons to sneak in the Eradicators off the board edge like I can with them in Space Wolves? The 24 inch range on their guns and no ability to drop them in close to a vehicles means they just get focused and shot before they can really do much I'm finding.

 

Strategic Reserves from the 9th ed missions allow you to Outflank units by paying CPs.

 

I run my Carcharodons as Raven Guard Successors so have access to Strike from the Shadows (deep strike deploy) and various other re-deploy tricks.

[Claws and Effect]

Figured I'd throw this out there since GW hasn't said anything one way or another: They've said that all Marine Chapters have access to Primaris. But that sort of implies all Chapters that are actively supported by the Imperium. 

 

The Carcharodons hang out basically outside the galaxy and it's not clear on whether the Imperium even knows where to find them to give them supplies if they wanted to. Combined with the fact that they are the closest thing to being Excomminicate Traitorus you can get without actually crossing that line and you have a scenario where it is questionable whether the Carcharodons would have Primaris at all. 

[Waking Dreamer]

Figured I'd throw this out there since GW hasn't said anything one way or another: They've said that all Marine Chapters have access to Primaris. But that sort of implies all Chapters that are actively supported by the Imperium. 

 

The Carcharodons hang out basically outside the galaxy and it's not clear on whether the Imperium even knows where to find them to give them supplies if they wanted to. Combined with the fact that they are the closest thing to being Excomminicate Traitorus you can get without actually crossing that line and you have a scenario where it is questionable whether the Carcharodons would have Primaris at all.

 

Wasn't their recent artwork of FW chapters featuring Primaris units? If I recall this Chapter was included (showing an Aggressor in its colours), so while not explicitly expressed in words, that is the next best thing.