Flow aid/improver vs gloss varnish.

[Suspira Mortis]

Hi all,

 

Would flow aid/improver as a wash additive produce similar results to washing after gloss varnishing? And if so, what ratios would you recommend? I understand that I could probably get optimal results using both but I'd like to save time where possible. Accordingly, I don't want to have to apply a subsequent matt varnish in order for later paint layers to adhere better.

 

I'd appreciate your views on this!

[NiceGuyAdi]

Flow aid is something I'm starting to wonder if I've misunderstood for a few years. Because it decreases surface tension, it should tend to spread out more, which you don't want from your wash if it's supposed to be going into the crevices. But it also reduces adhesion to the miniature, so will tend to pull back together as it slides off the surface you're painting over, which I think would be a good thing. So there are two contradictory effects in play. Sorry I think I'm just adding to your confusion, there.

 

To get more informed/confused, read this

 

One thing I did find when I tried gloss varnishing marines before washing was that if you think you can use it as a shortcut to just slap wash all over the minuature and not expect nasty pooling or tide marks you're probably going to be disappointed. I think I found thinning washes with Lahmian Medium worked better than flow aid.

 

[edit, found pictures of my attempts with gloss varnishing and washing...]

 

So these are from my experiments for my home-brew chapter. Annoyingly I did this a year ago and didn't write anything down, but from memory they were primed, sprayed with Winsor and Newton gloss varnish and then washed with 1:1 Citadel wash:Lahmian Medium. No flow aid.

 

Edited September 4, 2020 by NiceGuyAdi

[Firedrake Cordova]

Les Bursley used flow aid, matte medium, water, and ink to make washes - the recipe's here: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/261541.page

 

I believe these were commercialised as the Secret Weapon wash line, but I could be wrong.

[tychobi]

The varnish gives a smooth surface to aid in moving the wash around. It allows you to use a dark wash that hugs the recesses and leaves your high points alone. Thinning your wash will make it lighter but will not make it more mobile if the under surface is not smooth ie shiny. Matte paint is matte because it dries to a rougher surface. Super easy to hit it with matte varnish afterward to kill the shine but I suspect your thinned wash on a matte surface may not give you the same effect.

[Lovecraft0110]

Hi all,

 

Would flow aid/improver as a wash additive produce similar results to washing after gloss varnishing? And if so, what ratios would you recommend? I understand that I could probably get optimal results using both but I'd like to save time where possible. Accordingly, I don't want to have to apply a subsequent matt varnish in order for later paint layers to adhere better.

 

I'd appreciate your views on this!

Hi,

 

I understand I am not answering your question, but I would really encourage you to try a gloss varnish followed by an enamel or oil wash. Not only will the results be like dark magic by comparison, but the ability to move the wash around or remove it from unwanted areas afterwards makes an enormous difference. Just a few bucks in terms of gear.

[Tyberos the Red Wake]

I think I found thinning washes with Lahmian Medium worked better than flow aid.

 

One top tip I found was replacing Lahmian Medium with Contrast Medium with washes. This lets you slop Nuln Oil or Agrax Earthshade all over the model with very minimal staining of surfaces, and the wash flows into the crevices by itself. The panel lining effect is also less dark since the wash's color is diluted by the Contrast Medium.

 

Still won't beat a gloss varnish followed by careful Nuln Oil Gloss application or an oil pin-wash, but it's as close to "slap the wash on without any issues" as you can get without doing a gloss varnish step.

[Suspira Mortis]

Flow aid is something I'm starting to wonder if I've misunderstood for a few years. Because it decreases surface tension, it should tend to spread out more, which you don't want from your wash if it's supposed to be going into the crevices. But it also reduces adhesion to the miniature, so will tend to pull back together as it slides off the surface you're painting over, which I think would be a good thing. So there are two contradictory effects in play. Sorry I think I'm just adding to your confusion, there.

 

To get more informed/confused, read this

 

One thing I did find when I tried gloss varnishing marines before washing was that if you think you can use it as a shortcut to just slap wash all over the minuature and not expect nasty pooling or tide marks you're probably going to be disappointed. I think I found thinning washes with Lahmian Medium worked better than flow aid.

 

[edit, found pictures of my attempts with gloss varnishing and washing...]

 

So these are from my experiments for my home-brew chapter. Annoyingly I did this a year ago and didn't write anything down, but from memory they were primed, sprayed with Winsor and Newton gloss varnish and then washed with 1:1 Citadel wash:Lahmian Medium. No flow aid.

 

 

 

I think I found thinning washes with Lahmian Medium worked better than flow aid.

 

One top tip I found was replacing Lahmian Medium with Contrast Medium with washes. This lets you slop Nuln Oil or Agrax Earthshade all over the model with very minimal staining of surfaces, and the wash flows into the crevices by itself. The panel lining effect is also less dark since the wash's color is diluted by the Contrast Medium.

 

Still won't beat a gloss varnish followed by careful Nuln Oil Gloss application or an oil pin-wash, but it's as close to "slap the wash on without any issues" as you can get without doing a gloss varnish step.

 

Thank you for these comments. I think you both hit on an essential point that there's no silver bullet here, just techniques that make the task easier. I should say for context that I am a brand new painter and haven't a single complete model yet. Perhaps I need to accept that each method has it's challenges, and choose one to get started. At some level I think my desire to save time is actually a desire for easy results!

 

Bearing in mind that I'm starting with Custodes, would an allover wash followed by layering and highlighting (i.e., the classic GW method) be a good place to start? I may just have to accept that I'll be a slow painter to start with. On the other hand, oil/enamel washes do give nice effects. Do you think they would suit a novice painter?

 

 

 

Hi all,

 

Would flow aid/improver as a wash additive produce similar results to washing after gloss varnishing? And if so, what ratios would you recommend? I understand that I could probably get optimal results using both but I'd like to save time where possible. Accordingly, I don't want to have to apply a subsequent matt varnish in order for later paint layers to adhere better.

 

I'd appreciate your views on this!

Hi,

 

I understand I am not answering your question, but I would really encourage you to try a gloss varnish followed by an enamel or oil wash. Not only will the results be like dark magic by comparison, but the ability to move the wash around or remove it from unwanted areas afterwards makes an enormous difference. Just a few bucks in terms of gear.

Hi Lovecraft, I'm a big fan of your channel. Although your channel makes a great case for them, I have a couple of barriers with enamels/oils. The first is that I haven't got the best ventilation where I'll be painting (in combination with having a cat and others living with me). Secondly, I fear that the gloss varnish will complicate highlighting or painting other details due to poor paint adhesion. Am I worrying too much?

Edited September 5, 2020 by Suspira Mortis

[tychobi]

Painting over gloss finish is no problem. I have actually switched to gloss primer. Looks a bit odd early on but the paint sticks and the finish is up to the final layers.

[Lovecraft0110]

 

Flow aid is something I'm starting to wonder if I've misunderstood for a few years. Because it decreases surface tension, it should tend to spread out more, which you don't want from your wash if it's supposed to be going into the crevices. But it also reduces adhesion to the miniature, so will tend to pull back together as it slides off the surface you're painting over, which I think would be a good thing. So there are two contradictory effects in play. Sorry I think I'm just adding to your confusion, there.

 

To get more informed/confused, read this

 

One thing I did find when I tried gloss varnishing marines before washing was that if you think you can use it as a shortcut to just slap wash all over the minuature and not expect nasty pooling or tide marks you're probably going to be disappointed. I think I found thinning washes with Lahmian Medium worked better than flow aid.

 

[edit, found pictures of my attempts with gloss varnishing and washing...]

 

So these are from my experiments for my home-brew chapter. Annoyingly I did this a year ago and didn't write anything down, but from memory they were primed, sprayed with Winsor and Newton gloss varnish and then washed with 1:1 Citadel wash:Lahmian Medium. No flow aid.

 

 

 

I think I found thinning washes with Lahmian Medium worked better than flow aid.

 

One top tip I found was replacing Lahmian Medium with Contrast Medium with washes. This lets you slop Nuln Oil or Agrax Earthshade all over the model with very minimal staining of surfaces, and the wash flows into the crevices by itself. The panel lining effect is also less dark since the wash's color is diluted by the Contrast Medium.

 

Still won't beat a gloss varnish followed by careful Nuln Oil Gloss application or an oil pin-wash, but it's as close to "slap the wash on without any issues" as you can get without doing a gloss varnish step.

 

Thank you for these comments. I think you both hit on an essential point that there's no silver bullet here, just techniques that make the task easier. I should say for context that I am a brand new painter and haven't a single complete model yet. Perhaps I need to accept that each method has it's challenges, and choose one to get started. At some level I think my desire to save time is actually a desire for easy results!

 

Bearing in mind that I'm starting with Custodes, would an allover wash followed by layering and highlighting (i.e., the classic GW method) be a good place to start? I may just have to accept that I'll be a slow painter to start with. On the other hand, oil/enamel washes do give nice effects. Do you think they would suit a novice painter?

 

 

 

Hi all,

 

Would flow aid/improver as a wash additive produce similar results to washing after gloss varnishing? And if so, what ratios would you recommend? I understand that I could probably get optimal results using both but I'd like to save time where possible. Accordingly, I don't want to have to apply a subsequent matt varnish in order for later paint layers to adhere better.

 

I'd appreciate your views on this!

Hi,

 

I understand I am not answering your question, but I would really encourage you to try a gloss varnish followed by an enamel or oil wash. Not only will the results be like dark magic by comparison, but the ability to move the wash around or remove it from unwanted areas afterwards makes an enormous difference. Just a few bucks in terms of gear.

Hi Lovecraft, I'm a big fan of your channel. Although your channel makes a great case for them, I have a couple of barriers with enamels/oils. The first is that I haven't got the best ventilation where I'll be painting (in combination with having a cat and others living with me). Secondly, I fear that the gloss varnish will complicate highlighting or painting other details due to poor paint adhesion. Am I worrying too much?

 

 

Thank you, Suspira Mortis!

 

If you don't airbrush the enamels, you're totally fine ventilation-wise (and I am very cautious about these things). As for later stages of painting, I would also not worry at all. First of all, I am pretty sure you can paint over gloss varnish with no issues, but secondly, it is pretty normal to do a matt varnish after the enamel wash to help seal it in. Therefore, I would say give it a try, and worry not! Let me know how it goes, and thank you for the kind words!

[Suspira Mortis]

Painting over gloss finish is no problem. I have actually switched to gloss primer. Looks a bit odd early on but the paint sticks and the finish is up to the final layers.

 

Thank you, Suspira Mortis!

 

If you don't airbrush the enamels, you're totally fine ventilation-wise (and I am very cautious about these things). As for later stages of painting, I would also not worry at all. First of all, I am pretty sure you can paint over gloss varnish with no issues, but secondly, it is pretty normal to do a matt varnish after the enamel wash to help seal it in. Therefore, I would say give it a try, and worry not! Let me know how it goes, and thank you for the kind words!

Thank you both for clearing this up, and for everyone who has given advice in this thread. I think I'll give the oil/enamel method a try! Now to decide whether to use oils or enamels...

Edited September 6, 2020 by Suspira Mortis