The Dreadknight is an OK design

[TrashMan]

I don't get why it's so hated.

Among many imperium designs, it's one of the few where form actually does follow function.

 

What is it's purpose? To fight greater demons. Not tau battlesuits, not tanks.

And what do you need to fight greater demons?

 

Well, they have the advantage in reach, so a suit with long legs and arms to hold weapons sounds about right.

They are strong, so having strength to match is a must. The things on the shoulder actually increase leverage and make for stronger swings, so they are legit a good idea.

Armor won't help you much against a demonic weapon and it will only slow you down - greater demons are fast, so heavily armoring a dreadknight would be counterproductive. Additionally, the pilot is already in Aegis teminator armor, is a pysker and there's also things like force fields, so he's pretty safe from anything that isn't anti-tank weaponry.

 

So no, the dreaknight isn't a bad design.

If anything, the new primaris combat walker is trash, that thing is supposed to fight against things with lots of dakka and has an exposed pilot in regular SM armor and no shielding.

[Skywrath]

I'll bite. I don't mind the design as well tbh, however there is an updated chassis which looks absolutely baller in an earlier thread on this forum. Perhaps you could look at that one as well.

[Captain Coolpants]

But.... Its ugly! Lmao

 

I don't think anyone cares about the practicality of the design.

Its just it's quite literally a baby carrier. And in a fantasy world with magic and demons, something a little cooler would have been.... Cooler

Edited September 9, 2020 by Captain Coolpants

[Corvus Fortis]

I am not a fan of NDK appearance either, but I rarely see a conversion which makes it better. Adding a dreadnought plate makes it look like a funny box with long legs. Recent 3d-printed upgrade with a giant knight head makes it look even more ridiculous. Probably the best way to improve it is to close only legs and arms of the pilot, while leaving shoulders and the head open. 

 

I don't hate them too, though. Not the best desing ever, not the worst either.

[Noserenda]

But.... Its ugly! Lmao

 

I don't think anyone cares about the practicality of the design.

Its just it's quite literally a baby carrier. And in a fantasy world with magic and demons, something a little cooler would have been.... Cooler

[Sandlemad]

 

^^This, but i think it also undermines one of the key images of the Grey knights, which is shining heroes standing up against giant monsters (Alone or in little groups) despite them being giant monsters and the knight being man sized.

 

Yeah, it's an important part of the GK's image. The approach that seems to have informed the dreadknight's development - "well, greater daemons are big and strong so we need something that's big and strong to fight them" - is just so tediously literal and sidesteps the more resonant symbolic aspect entirely. If "needs more big" was so important, focusing on some sort of contemptor variant would indeed have been better.

 

Also the point of it just looking dumb remains. That squat little terminator on the front like, yes, a baby carrier, legs dangling, crotch-plate like an armoured diaper. It also stinks of the hat-on-a-hat approach you see with the centurions: here's some of the best armour humanity's created with its famous and distinctive silhouette and appearance, now let's strap on a whole bunch of ungainly gubbins.

 

It's not completely unsalvageable, I like the big arcing piston things on top of the arms, gives it a sort of rough and ready dynamism when it's got two guns, but that doesn't make it less of a bad idea or more appropriate for the GK.

[Icosiel]

Dreadknights can look rad if you mix up their terribly static pose.

 

[Brother Lunkhead]

 

.... but i think it also undermines one of the key images of the Grey knights, which is shining heroes standing up against giant monsters (Alone or in little groups) despite them being giant monsters and the knight being man sized. 

 

I think this covers my feelings on the DK in a nutshell....that and the baby carrier image ( can never get the image out of my mind of a squealing GK baby who's missing his Nemesis Rattle). I've seen some good armor bits (to cover the pilot) that make it look better. But, ultimately it is not a good design. The body gives the impression that it is top heavy with an accompanying high center of gravity. The legs don't give the impression that they have enough mass or width to give the overall structure stability. I've always had this vision of a DK in battle: smaller daemons gather at the feet of a DK while a larger daemon sneaks up behind and tips it over......oops To me it has always looked like a quick build stop gap weapons carrier, something to fill a need until a more permanent and better weapons carrier can be fielded. I'd like to see the DK retired and replaced by a Grey Knight KNIGHT ......more mass, bigger weapons, more killy killiness 

 

This is all just my opinion. If you like the DK, that's cool. I can respect TrashMan's perspective. It's well thought out For what it's worth I have similar critical views of other fighting vehicles. All of them belonging to some version of Space Marines.

 

Here's a link to the DK 3D print mod. It looks pretty cool. There're more in the main DK thread here.

Edited September 9, 2020 by Brother Lunkhead

[TPS]

So no, the dreaknight isn't a bad design.

The leg attachment of the dreadknight is among the worst designs in the entire history of 40k. Because it can't possibly work.

 

I mean: I have a healthy suspension of disbelief - this is an universe where there's some sort of human that can go eye to eye with a mammoth (and probably knock it out if needed), where everyone lugs around more equipment than they weigh themselves, where Terminators have proportions that would permit them to apply for a job to ring bells in Notre Dame, but it's this leg attachment that makes my brain flip out and go 'WHYYYY?!'

 

The 'baby carrier' thing is actually totally ok next to those bloody legs.

[TrashMan]

>baby carrier

 

I see no problem. Unless it's a dreadnought, you got to have a pilot. And there's no better and more natural way to control a humanoid walker than having it mimic your own movements. That means you need good range of motion for your limbs, and unless the walker is truly gigantic (with enough space in it's chest), you just cannot armor it and have mobility.

Then again, the DK lore also states that the pilot is FULLY connected, so there would be no need for that to begin with. You COULD then, totally encase the pilot and get rid of the baby carrier aesthetic. But GW seems unclear on weather manual control is needed or not.

 

Yes, I would alter the design in a few places myself, but how much depends on clarifying the lore first.

 

 

@TPS

I'm not sure that the GK pilots  leg is attached to the NDK's one. OR are you referring to the upper(hip) joint connection to the rest of the body?

That said, I too think the legs could look a tad beefier and better.

 

 

@Skywrath:

you mean this one?

http://images.dakkadakka.com/gallery/2012/4/30/360467_md-Conversion%2C%20Dread%20Knight%2C%20Dreadknight%2C%20Grey%20Knights.jpg

 

 

On a somewhat related note - why do so many writers seem to forget that GK's are powerful psykers? So many writers just have them running around slashing, occasionaly shooting holy fire. Where's the rest of the awesome psyker powers?

Edited September 10, 2020 by TrashMan

[Waking Dreamer]

Then again, the DK lore also states that the pilot is FULLY connected, so there would be no need for that to begin with. You COULD then, totally encase the pilot and get rid of the baby carrier aesthetic. But GW seems unclear on weather manual control is needed or not.

 

On a somewhat related note - why do so many writers seem to forget that GK's are powerful psykers? So many writers just have them running around slashing, occasionaly shooting holy fire. Where's the rest of the awesome psyker powers?

 

Well, you need to be a powerful psyker just for the chance to turn the ignition for the dreadknight, so there stands to reason a lot of the psyker's powers are channeled into the dreadknight's combat potential. The pilot has to be psychically linked to the machine to give it better control and movement, but as shown in the design their is manual movement with the pilot's arms to also naturally simulate the close combat actions for the dreadknight's massive arms/weapons. That's fine, that minimizes the learning curve of having to learn corresponding joystick / control buttons to preform combo's for the dreadknight's fighting style. If the pilot himself trains constantly with the sword or hammer outside the dreadknight, after attuning himself psychically with the dreadknight, using his natural muscle memory and experience to fight with the dreadknight cuts down the learning curve drastically.

 

Model-wise, I think the design brief for the dreadknight was as you say, to increase the melee range and strength of an individual Grey Knight so as to go toe-to-toe against the greater daemons 1v1, but it was also to maintain a visual sense of a man-size hero / knight still going up against larger than life daemons and monsters. For example the image below is one of the better conversions but totally ignores the second part of the intended imagery, "that of the smaller but brave and heroic knight fighting against gigantic monsters".

you mean this one?

http://images.dakkad...rey Knights.jpg

^ I don't think the GW design team wanted the dreadknight to visually be an up-scaled GK Terminator. For all we know with that conversion - visually, is that the NDK could be completely robotic inside, and not have a fully-able pilot in there at all. A clearly defined cockpit of some kind needs to be part of the design/conversion for me, and that's why many cool conversions which completely remove the pilot aspects...falls short of actually "improving" the initial dreadknight design concept.

 

Don't get me wrong, I really admire the effort and time people put into their conversions, it's just I feel many conversions (intentional or not), shift towards trying to create a GK version of something like the Custodes Telemon dreadnought (they're actually very close in height, width, arm/leg length - just with no visual pilot) :

 

 

which is an amazing (the best imo) dreadnought model to me, but that means the conversion strays away from actually being a better GK version of, "Ripley in her Power Loader vs. the Alien Queen" (which is one of the very clear sources of inspiration for the original NDK design).

 

So if you want the NDK to look like various, totally enclosed Contemptor-style Dreadnoughts, there are conversions that can make them look very much so. But if you want NDKs to keep their original, "man-sized warrior piloting an exo-suit to increase his odds, but could still very much get a greater daemon axe to the face, if he lacks the skill / bravery - underdog imagery"....there hasn't been a conversion that gets any better than what you see on the box-cover (highly suggest keeping the helmet on though, to minimize "baby carrier" inclinations), which in the end I actually like.

Edited September 11, 2020 by Waking Dreamer

[TrashMan]

I was talking about GK psyker power uses in general, not just related to dradknights, but OK.

 

But Dreadknights are confusing. If they are powered by a fusion reactor, why does a GK need to expend his psychic might to move it? Should he only need to channel it into his nemesis blade?

If a GK is neurally connected, the manual arm/leg movement system would be unnecessary. If they want a power-loaded feel, then a neural connection is unnecessary.

 

As for the NDK size - greater demons can be even bigger in some cases. Going a gaint a gigantic beast is heroic, but kinda stupid if you have somethin to even the odds.

[Waking Dreamer]

The power plant on the NDK generates the energy to allow movement for the machine's limbs, but the psychic powers from the psyker provides the greater control needed to fight in combat against greater daemons...whom could have many centuries of fighting experience.

 

The psyker pilot is connected psychically (which I suppose is similar to be neurally connected) to the NDK, but that doesn't have to mean merely thinking about moving the NDK is enough to control it. For example, Jaeger pilots from the Pacific Rim franchise, are both neurally connected to their machines, yet still preform physical/manual movements to control their Jaegers...the two systems don't have to be mutually exclusive of one another. A simple explanation is that the current technology requires the two forms of input to maximize the control of the NDK. It's technology is just not yet advanced enough to either allow a psyker to fully control the NDK by merely thinking about it, nor have a non-psyker control it completely with manual controls - and achieve sufficient response times to fight a Greater Daemon 1v1.

 

The power loader feel, which comes from the control harness design, isn't actually about the neural/psychic control systems - it's from the bare bones structure surrounding the pilot. No seat, standing up position, visually exposed face, shoulders and limbs...maintaining a relative "sense of danger" for the pilot imo. Thus, keeping the certain underdog feel similar to how a lone or group of infantry GKs going up against a hulking daemon evoke...which at least a couple posters here feel is suppose to intrinsically be associated with Grey Knight imagery.

 

I find I have to appreciate GW's design goal of producing a NDK model which has a bigger sword and bigger guns to rival Greater Daemons, yet you will never forget at the center of the design, it's still just one of your regular man-sized GKs ready to put in work. It's never supposed to be a Tau Riptide...which is a giant Crisis Suit, nor a Wraithlord...which is a giant Wraithblade. It's still one of your regular-sized GK Terminators...which now simply has access to some bigger/better weapons... 

Edited September 11, 2020 by Waking Dreamer