Can Surgeon Acolyte Take Relics?

[Doom Herald]

While getting my official army list put together for an upcoming tournament I found that the Surgeon Acolyte has the CHARACTER keyword. Does this mean by RAW that I can give him a relic or does he count as a named character? The rules say Bile may take up to 1 Surgeon Acolyte, which certainly adds to the feel that he is not a unique and "named" character. On a related note, would killing him count as killing a character for my opponent or does the whole unit (Acolyte + Bile) have to be slain?

 

I might ask my TO (mostly out of curiosity) on his take, but I doubt I would actually try it unless the general consensus is that the Acolyte can take relics.

Edited September 10, 2020 by Doom Herald

[MegaVolt87]

Out of interest if you could end up doing it, what would you give the Acolyte? Surely you would bring at least another HQ besides bile that could make better use of a relic? 

[Doom Herald]

Helm of All-seeing.

 

In that he is paired with Bile, a support relic would be the go to. Aside from the Living Carapace (which would be seriously waisted on him), I'm pretty sure that it's actually the only one he could take anyway. All other relics replace weapons or require a <MARK OF CHAOS> or <LEGION> other than CREATIONS OF BILE. Since Bile has to be my warlord, adding to his unit a CP regenerator seems like a decent decision.

[MasterDeath]

I would say: No, he cant. Reason is, the Acolythe is part of the Datasheet called "Fabius Bile". And Fabius Bile is excluded from taking Relics.

[Doom Herald]

I would say: No, he cant. Reason is, the Acolythe is part of the Datasheet called "Fabius Bile". And Fabius Bile is excluded from taking Relics.

I can definitely see that angle, but the Surgeon Acolyte is also a character in his own right. If you look at the datasheet, it has a keyword list for Bile and a separate list for the Surgeon Acolyte, both of which contain the CHARACTER keyword. What is your take on destroying it counting as destroying a Character? It is a part of Bile's datasheet, but I would assume if the Surgeon Acolyte were destroyed it would count as your opponent destroying a Character, despite the fact that Bile is still alive.

[MasterDeath]

What is your take on destroying it counting as destroying a Character? It is a part of Bile's datasheet, but I would assume if the Surgeon Acolyte were destroyed it would count as your opponent destroying a Character, despite the fact that Bile is still alive.

 

 

This has nothing to do with the relic question. If you would have a target "Destroy Fabius Bile" then yes, but not in the cases I know of. A better angle to challenge my rule interpretation would be "Kill the warlord". Is "Fabius Bile must be your warlord" dependant on killing the model or the unit called Fabius Bile? Probably the model. I just wanted to throw in my first interpretation, but I am not into rules lawyering. In the end, could be one or the other.

 

Edit: Some more things. The "no relic for Fabius Bile" is not written bold, so its not refereing to a keyword. So no hint if model or unit is meant there. Also even if it hinted at the model, what if the surgeon acolythe is also a named character? Whats makes a character named? That he has a name? What about "Murderfang" or "Shadowsun", does not sound much different to something like a "Riptide" so thats hardly a prove. The only thing we surely have is the "You can only include one of this unit..." and the surgeon Acolythe falls under this rules bit.

Edited September 10, 2020 by MasterDeath

[Doom Herald]

My question regarding whether the Acolyte counts as a character if destroyed was not meant to challenge your interpretation; it was a secondary question asked in my original post. I do appreciate you sharing your interpretation.

 

I wasn't even thinking about the relics portion of the Creations of Bile rules, I had just looked at the Codex relic rules. That definitely puts things more in the realm of no relic for the Acolyte, though it still feels ambiguous due to the fact that the same rules say to give it to a character model, meaning it's the model "Surgeon Acolyte" and not the unit "Fabius Bile" that the relic is applied to. It also says that, in part, the reason they can't be given relics is that they already have one, which the Acolyte likely does not.

 

As far as destroying the Warlord, your Warlord is a model according to rules, so destroying the model "Fabius Bile" would achieve that. What I was mentioning was objectives that would reward you for killing characters.

 

It's dubious enough that I really wouldn't try it anyway. I really am just looking for takes on whether it could be done and why/why not. So, again, thanks for your reply. Vague language has been an ongoing source of rule ambiguity such as what is a "named" character. I imagine Bile and the Acolyte are not alone in this regard are they? Are there any others like this unit? The Dark Apostle/Disciples use a different type of rule.

Edited September 10, 2020 by Doom Herald

[MegaVolt87]

My question regarding whether the Acolyte counts as a character if destroyed was not meant to challenge your interpretation; it was a secondary question asked in my original post. I do appreciate you sharing your interpretation.

I wasn't even thinking about the relics portion of the Creations of Bile rules, I had just looked at the Codex relic rules. That definitely puts things more in the realm of no relic for the Acolyte, though it still feels ambiguous due to the fact that the same rules say to give it to a character model, meaning it's the model "Surgeon Acolyte" and not the unit "Fabius Bile" that the relic is applied to. It also says that, in part, the reason they can't be given relics is that they already have one, which the Acolyte likely does not.

As far as destroying the Warlord, your Warlord is a model according to rules, so destroying the model "Fabius Bile" would achieve that. What I was mentioning was objectives that would reward you for killing characters.

It's dubious enough that I really wouldn't try it anyway. I really am just looking for takes on whether it could be done and why/why not. So, again, thanks for your reply. Vague language has been an ongoing source of rule ambiguity such as what is a "named" character. I imagine Bile and the Acolyte are not alone in this regard are they? Are there any others like this unit? The Dark Apostle/Disciples use a different type of rule.

The DA and acolytes are quite clear in how they work. I think Ghaz and Makari are relatively clear. Should be a more universal standard in other instances.

[MasterDeath]

My question regarding whether the Acolyte counts as a character if destroyed was not meant to challenge your interpretation; it was a secondary question asked in my original post. I do appreciate you sharing your interpretation.

 

I wasn't even thinking about the relics portion of the Creations of Bile rules, I had just looked at the Codex relic rules. That definitely puts things more in the realm of no relic for the Acolyte, though it still feels ambiguous due to the fact that the same rules say to give it to a character model, meaning it's the model "Surgeon Acolyte" and not the unit "Fabius Bile" that the relic is applied to. It also says that, in part, the reason they can't be given relics is that they already have one, which the Acolyte likely does not.

 

As far as destroying the Warlord, your Warlord is a model according to rules, so destroying the model "Fabius Bile" would achieve that. What I was mentioning was objectives that would reward you for killing characters.

 

It's dubious enough that I really wouldn't try it anyway. I really am just looking for takes on whether it could be done and why/why not. So, again, thanks for your reply. Vague language has been an ongoing source of rule ambiguity such as what is a "named" character. I imagine Bile and the Acolyte are not alone in this regard are they? Are there any others like this unit? The Dark Apostle/Disciples use a different type of rule.

I see it the same way. Its a big grey area. On tourney level it would have to be cleared up in advance. Da/DD are two seperate units so there is no question in that regard, although I think they will be turned into a character unit. And as Megavolt said, there is a standard needed for such units. Would I allow this in a casual game? Sure, why not? Its not game breakingly strong. I would even say its rather weak. If you want to protect your relic, you have to put wounds on Fabius. And as soon as you do this, the acolythe cant shield the incoming meltershot.

Generally I think that only the "leader" of a character unit (maybe defined by "name matches datasheet") should be able to take a relic.

Edited September 11, 2020 by MasterDeath