FW Book 9 "Crusade": Fluff Discussion

[b1soul]

Presumably Gramarye may still be around in the 42nd millennium...just with no significance to the modern DA chapter?

[MegaVolt87]

Presumably Gramarye may still be around in the 42nd millennium...just with no significance to the modern DA chapter?

The Consecrators successor chapter seems to have a lot of OG legion stuff. Maybe it's their job to look after this other fort/ toybox of fun stuff ?

[b1soul]

Yes, their Fortress Monastery is a battle barge so Gramarye could be a secret cache they keep an eye on

[WrathOfTheLion]

I thought I had seen Gramarye somewhere in 40k before, but maybe I am misremembering.

 

I would not be surprised if we see it creep back up however. I think we might see quite a few changes now that we have book 9 out.

Edited September 17, 2020 by WrathOfTheLion

[Robbienw]

One thing I found slightly confusing about the DA fluff was when they mention Orders.

 

Its clear when they refer to the Orders of the Hekatonystika (the Orders Militant), by the name of the Order.

 

But they also refer to Orders with a number and not a Hekatonystika type name sometimes, like they are referring to a large set formation rather than the specialised Orders, like if its a number for a Chapter, or sub-Chapter level grouping of Companies or something like that.  

 

For example, you have Marduk Sedras, who is referred to as Lord of the 23rd Order, and also as Preceptor of the Shattered Sceptre (which would be an Order of the Hekatonystika, given Preceptor is a Hekatonystika rank).  

 

I feel like i have missed something. 

[Marshal Rohr]

The numbered orders are chapters. The Orders of the Adjective Nouns are Hekatonitsyka Edited September 17, 2020 by Marshal Rohr

[Gederas]

Yeah, what Marshal Rohr said. "NUMBER Order" is the Dark Angels companies.

 

So Marduk Sedras is the commander of the 23rd Company of Dark Angels.

[SchultzChaos]

Like... Guys. Come on. You got the book! 

Any new info on the Night Lords? What has happened to them since after Isstvan?

[Marshal Rohr]

Nothing really. The legion is fracturing, they like torturing people, and they suck at being a legion. Lore wise it’s more of the same.

[Marshal Loss]

A big part of their arc in Crusade is about how the Legion's soul is split in two, and how - tragically - Curze damns his Legion with his own awakening right at the climax of the conflict. So while there isn't a lot of new material or grand revelations per se, beyond the different inter-Legion factions being elaborated upon in greater detail and given their own figureheads, it certainly frames the Night Lords in a slightly different fashion. I liked it.

[SkimaskMohawk]

The book goes into the allegiances of worlds sworn to the night lords and how it allowed them to both flood thramas with chaf-bodies and even stay supplied during the crusade as they got material sanctions for their extravagance.

 

But the whole shtick is "you guys aren't compliant and don't want to change/are too mutated and would be subject to death, but we'll keep you a secret if you submit to us, the night lords" . And that rings counter to how Curze followed law; break it and be punished, positivism is all that matters. "The law is the law".

[Sandlemad]

Like... Guys. Come on. You got the book! 

Any new info on the Night Lords? What has happened to them since after Isstvan?

 

 

Anything specific? The main thread is the fracturing into two broad ideologies throughout the Thramas crusade: those who wanted to stick to at least some of the older ideals of the legion and cared about the traitor cause at least a bit (most but not all of whom wanted Curze as a strong leader), and those who saw unbridled freedom to make their own petty empires as the goal (most but not all of whom saw that it's in their interest for Curze to stay isolated and less in contact with his legion).

 

Neither group were that unified. These were more trends than clearly outlined factions, though the former tended to include Terran and older Nostramoan veterans (including but not limited to Sevatar), and the latter the more recent recruits from Nostramo and the surrounding industrial worlds. The newbies took the 'cross of bone' symbol and the veterans sort of adopted the red hand of Sevatar as theirs, on the basis that it was a semi-ironic symbol of devotion to Curze's order. It's sort of an elaboration of what we knew from the BL books and older NL background but with more nitty-gritty and names involved. Like Nakrid Thole, who was a prominent dude among the cross of bone ideology.

 

Other notes... It's stated that while the NL were effective outriders and terror weapons at the start of the heresy, Horus could see that they were beginning to become something of a liability to the wider war effort through their growing lack of discipline and Curze's erratic behaviour, e.g. indiscriminately wrecking worlds the traitors needed for the march to Terra. So in a sense they were sent to Thramas in a mildly way to how the DA or BA were sent to remote regions: to get them out of Horus's hair as well as serving a purpose of holding up the DA and bringing the region into the fold.

 

There's also a note on Curze's attack on Dorn during the great crusade, addressing the old question of why Curze was summoned to be part of the fleet to attack Istvaan V when he was practically a renegade. It's more or less as fans had already figured, Curze was still doing effective work for the crusade 'out there', just as he always had, but beyond that: "The great and the wise places a higher value on the unity of the Emperor's crusade across the stars than on the open punishment of a warlord that had erred, perhaps even feared what they might unleash should they force Konrad Curze's hand." So instead supplies to NL-held sectors were restricted and the NL were not to be considered part of the crusade's vanguard. By the time Horus showed his hand, there was a feeling that Curze had been out in the cold for long enough.

 

Smaller cool detail but there's also brief discussion of the Jadhek biker clans of old Nostramo, some of the very last of the gangs and syndicates to bend the knee to Curze. Their old reaving traditions never went away entirely among the recruits and started coming out as the legion fractured. In-game this is where you get the NL 'Swift Blade' unique RoW.

 

EDIT: one other cool thing that isn't strictly about the NL themselves but is still great: the Midnight Treaties, basically a series of secret alliances Curze had made with creeps and weirdoes at the fringes of the great crusade, some semi-compliant worlds hidden from the imperium but also bands of pirates, reavers and abhumans. The mobile predator forge world of Ulan Hŭda has been mentioned but there was also Tohruk, relatives of ogryns from a some long-dead empire bred as shock troops, "cannibal legions from Glabro", "battle-psykers from the lost moons of Thex" and others. Feels like there's great background for an interesting milita/army of dark compliance list there.

Edited September 17, 2020 by Sandlemad

[Robbienw]

The numbered orders are chapters. The Orders of the Adjective Nouns are Hekatonitsyka

 

That makes sense.  I think it just confused me slightly because Chapters are referred to at some points as Chapters as well.

[Marshal Rohr]

I think chapters are essentially what the term unit is in real life. A catch all phrase people just use in general. So far I think only the Ultramarine use Chapter as an actual designation. The Fists call them regiments or chapters but they fight as companies first and foremost and chapters/regiments aren’t permanent. Iron Hands have Clan Companies and Orders. Death Guards have grand battalions.

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

The numbered orders are chapters. The Orders of the Adjective Nouns are Hekatonitsyka

 

That makes sense.  I think it just confused me slightly because Chapters are referred to at some points as Chapters as well.

 

Given that the text explicitly claims that the DAs still call the units in their 'official' hierarchy Chapters (which makes some sense, as they're meant to have been major contributors to the Principia Bellicosa (Spelling? The standard Legion playbook everybody drifted further from as the GC progressed)) I think this a just another sad result of FW's lack of editing their books. Having 2 elements of the triple hierarchy of the Legion both call their top level 'Order' is just bizarre and reeks of 'the Chapters were called Orders in Draft A, then we introduced the Hekatonitsyka orders, and renamed the numbered orders to Chapters to avoid confusion, but we forgot to edit the text boxes and picture legends'.

[Iron Hands Fanatic]

 

 

The numbered orders are chapters. The Orders of the Adjective Nouns are Hekatonitsyka

 

That makes sense.  I think it just confused me slightly because Chapters are referred to at some points as Chapters as well.

 

Given that the text explicitly claims that the DAs still call the units in their 'official' hierarchy Chapters (which makes some sense, as they're meant to have been major contributors to the Principia Bellicosa (Spelling? The standard Legion playbook everybody drifted further from as the GC progressed)) I think this a just another sad result of FW's lack of editing their books. Having 2 elements of the triple hierarchy of the Legion both call their top level 'Order' is just bizarre and reeks of 'the Chapters were called Orders in Draft A, then we introduced the Hekatonitsyka orders, and renamed the numbered orders to Chapters to avoid confusion, but we forgot to edit the text boxes and picture legends'.

 

 

I think it may be more to do with still conforming to the organisational Titles laid down in the Black Library books - the Novella The Lion, published in 2012, had a passage where the number of Dark Angels in the Lion's fleet was described by the number of Orders accompanying him. It's also been standard practice in all the Black Books to use the Principia Bellicosa divsions of Chapter/Battalion/Company alongside specific Legions' own terminology for said divisions pretty interchangeably.

[Marshal Rohr]

 

 

 

 

The numbered orders are chapters. The Orders of the Adjective Nouns are Hekatonitsyka

That makes sense. I think it just confused me slightly because Chapters are referred to at some points as Chapters as well.

Given that the text explicitly claims that the DAs still call the units in their 'official' hierarchy Chapters (which makes some sense, as they're meant to have been major contributors to the Principia Bellicosa (Spelling? The standard Legion playbook everybody drifted further from as the GC progressed)) I think this a just another sad result of FW's lack of editing their books. Having 2 elements of the triple hierarchy of the Legion both call their top level 'Order' is just bizarre and reeks of 'the Chapters were called Orders in Draft A, then we introduced the Hekatonitsyka orders, and renamed the numbered orders to Chapters to avoid confusion, but we forgot to edit the text boxes and picture legends'.

That’s not what happened.

[Sandlemad]

Any Titan Legions (except Victorum and Solaria) mentioned?

 

I'd meant to reply to this but you have Legio Adamantus of Gulghorad, the Unbroken', taking massive casualties fighting the Night Lords and Legio Victorum, though not retreating. They fought alongside "elements of the loyal Legios Atrox and Saevus" early in the war. There's also brief mention of Legio Phasma, "long bound to the Night Lords".

 

As an aside, one bit of background I'm a little surprised hasn't prompted more discussion is the Ikaros Contingency. Essentially the Emperor's backup plan/contingency against the Mechanicum, building on some of the stuff already present in previous FW books and the Leviathan Dreadnought's background, where Mars saw its development as a quiet provocation or anti-battle automata weapon.

 

First allowed for the DA to keep certain old DAoT/Age of Strife technologies/weapons that were sufficiently different from the Mechanicum's base as to be resistant to their hacking or cybertheurgy, presumably stuff like the Excindio. In addition:

 

The second clause, had it become common knowledge, would have been cause enough to start the war the Emperor sought to avoid, for it empowered Lion El’Jonson and his warriors to conduct pre-emptive combat operations to neutralise elements of the Mechanicum deemed to have become ‘contrary to the needs of the Imperium’. This final clause is known to have been invoked eight times in the history of the Imperium, though details of most of these incidents remain sealed within the vaults of the Dark Angels, with the encounter at Triplex the only openly acknowledged occurrence at this time.

 

The DA's role as low-key keepers of anti-Mechanicum weapons of Terran origin isn't new but stating that they'd actually fought (and presumably wiped out) some Mechanium elements - factions? fleets? forges? - during the great crusade feels like a moderately big deal.

Edited September 17, 2020 by Sandlemad

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

 

 

The numbered orders are chapters. The Orders of the Adjective Nouns are Hekatonitsyka

That makes sense. I think it just confused me slightly because Chapters are referred to at some points as Chapters as well.

Given that the text explicitly claims that the DAs still call the units in their 'official' hierarchy Chapters (which makes some sense, as they're meant to have been major contributors to the Principia Bellicosa (Spelling? The standard Legion playbook everybody drifted further from as the GC progressed)) I think this a just another sad result of FW's lack of editing their books. Having 2 elements of the triple hierarchy of the Legion both call their top level 'Order' is just bizarre and reeks of 'the Chapters were called Orders in Draft A, then we introduced the Hekatonitsyka orders, and renamed the numbered orders to Chapters to avoid confusion, but we forgot to edit the text boxes and picture legends'.

That’s not what happened.

 

And yet at no point in the main body of the DA Legion fluff does it say they called their Chapters "Orders", like other Legions with alternate names for their Chapter-level units (if I missed it, please point me at the right page). It's always Chapter, Wing/Host and Order, never Numbered Order, Wing/Host and Order of. The numbered Orders are only referenced in the special characters rules (when it lists the titles of Corswain and Sedras) and in the smaller text sections attached to the pictures (like the 'Battle for Kenrac' section on p114-115 and 'Zediel Ardaral' on p100). The point is it's weird that numbered orders are only mentioned there and not in the main 'organisation of the Legion' bits. I can't recall FW doing that with any of the other 17 Legions across the other 8 books (they usually got it wrong the other way, establishing that Legion X called their Chapter-level units something else in the main text but still listing "Xth Chapter" for the picture annotations). Which is why I suspect an editing failure, as it's such a strange decision to make deliberately.

[MegaVolt87]

The book goes into the allegiances of worlds sworn to the night lords and how it allowed them to both flood thramas with chaf-bodies and even stay supplied during the crusade as they got material sanctions for their extravagance.

But the whole shtick is "you guys aren't compliant and don't want to change/are too mutated and would be subject to death, but we'll keep you a secret if you submit to us, the night lords" . And that rings counter to how Curze followed law; break it and be punished, positivism is all that matters. "The law is the law".

Heh Konrad inspired by Perty on having an independent supply line, except of having a fort of doom with enough WMD's to destroy the planet 100x over to enforce it, you get the privilage of waking up in tne morning and not seeing the faces of your loved ones nailed to your bedroom ceiling.

[bluntblade]

I think chapters are essentially what the term unit is in real life. A catch all phrase people just use in general. So far I think only the Ultramarine use Chapter as an actual designation. The Fists call them regiments or chapters but they fight as companies first and foremost and chapters/regiments aren’t permanent. Iron Hands have Clan Companies and Orders. Death Guards have grand battalions.

Word Bearers have Chapters, SoH used to and in Wolf King a DA character talks about new Chapters being raised by Luther.

[Marshal Rohr]

Ah, forgot about the Word Bearers. Ironic that really only they and the Ultramarines use chapter as a formal designation.

[bluntblade]

Ah, forgot about the Word Bearers. Ironic that really only they and the Ultramarines use chapter as a formal designation.

I feel like there's another - possibly within the Realms of the Salamanders? Cos there were seven of those which could be pretty unwieldy.

[Sandlemad]

 

Ah, forgot about the Word Bearers. Ironic that really only they and the Ultramarines use chapter as a formal designation.

I feel like there's another - possibly within the Realms of the Salamanders? Cos there were seven of those which could be pretty unwieldy.

 

 

The Pyre Guard are referred to as 'chapter masters' on occasion but given that there's only seven dudes, I think this is meant to refer to the Realms. Otherwise it seems to jump right from Realms of 12k+ to companies of 120 warriors, which does come off as pretty unwieldy.

 

Night Lords used chapters though, a least nominally. Structurally they weren't as formal as the WB or UM or even legions which used the form under other names - "Unlike many others, the Night Lords used battalions and chapters as semi-permanent groupings of companies, rather than a universal structure favouring their own divisions." - but that's more than you see with e.g. the SoH. They do seem to have used the specific term 'chapter' rather than 'great company' or 'host' or similar, and it's this chapter level organisation that gets the attention in Crusade.

[Brother-Captain Gilead]

Regarding Night Lords I think the book strikes a fine balance of making it clear that the Legion was irrecovably on the road to destruction and splintering as long as Curze was there, while still making it clear that they are not just a bunch of cowards, which is something of an issue I find with fiction surrounding them. Sure they might be more inclined to self-preservation than some other legionnaires, but they are still 7 to 8 feet tall superhuman warriors wearing absurdly advanced armor and weaponry, they don't run away when someone makes a loud noise. Sure they might be a bit more inclined to terrifying the non-combatants, but they were still fighting in the Great Crusade which means that even the less experienced legionnaires had fought and killed opponents that were perfectly capable of killing them, they are more than apt at killing their brother Astartes. They even get a couple of great last stands / sacrifice plays where some of them give their life for the benefit of the legion as a whole, illustrating that they still bore some resemblance to the legion of old / that even if they had been filling their legion with ex-gangers, some of the gangers remembered the sense of loyalty that you have for the gang.

 

My only complaint would be that in my opinion some of the lengths to which the saner / more altruistic & honorable members of the legion have to go to put up with Curze is a bit weird and maybe goes a bit overboard, but I guess it just highlights how deep the bond that Astartes have to their primarch is.