FW Book 9 "Crusade": Fluff Discussion

[Lord_Caerolion]

It seems that that is definitely the case. 

[Brother-Captain Gilead]

I love the tidbit that the Dark Angels were the original Angels of Death because that was what they literally were. This ties in nicely with how over time this grim nature of their campaigns combined with their pride about being the First overtook their original role that was to mentor the younger legions and led them to isolate themselves. I also like the idea that even with all the horrible casualties they have endured and the devastating wars of attrition that they fought in, they still held on to an insanely experienced core of veterans that enabled them to function as flexibly and fluidly as they did with people transitiong from fighting as part of a tactical squad in a Stormwing deployment and then in the next engagement acting in a leadership role because the engagement seems to be one that could benefit from their leadership.

 

This paints a picture of a legion that has an interesting duality fueled by their insular nature. On one hand they are a legion that is really prideful when they interact with outsiders to the point of arrogance. I especially like the part where AK mentions that the Dark Angels were relatively unfazed by the rebellion because they were accustomed to ignoring Imperial military directives anyway, so the confusion that the official command structure felt at Horus rebelling had no impact on their operations. On the other hand this pride did not seem to factor into the internal workings of the legion, with command and control being assigned more or less on the fly depending on what type of leadership and knowledge would be the most useful in the engagement. This humbleness and neutrality towards useful knowledge no matter the source (as long as the source was a Dark Angel) makes an interesting contrast with their prideful attitude and is, I think, necessary to avoid painting the legion as being more arrogant than Fulgrim. I also like how this presents a rather interesting explanation as to why the warrior lodges never really took off with the Dark Angels, since first of all they didn't care much for ideas from the younger legions and second of all why would you need to setup a specific lodge for people to talk frankly with their officers, when the Dark Angels already had the wings and the orders that accomplished much of the same thing?

 

Final point: since so much of what made the Dark Angels such a capable fighting force in the Great Crusade was this core of veterans acting as a force multiplier when they led their younger brethren, imagine if somebody could fix the wound in the legion and bring in the repentant fallen back to the fold to act as that core again? I mean for the ones that have been the longest in realspace you are talking of millenia of experience that they could leverage, even if some of that experience has been made by being the biggest grox farmer on a forgotten agriworld somewhere. Probably not going to happen in the official timeline, but an interesting thought experiment.

[b1soul]

I think the era of First Legion preeminence is a super-interesting time during Imperial history...very unique and flavourful, really could be treated as its own setting.

 

How the First recaptured Sol and defended the system from sinister threats trying to slip in to snuff out humanity, the first baby-steps into the interstellar void...tonally it's so different from either the conclusion of Unity on Terra or the glorious mid/late GC.

 

The end of Unity is triumphant. Then humanity leaves its birthworld and realises even the Sol system itself is teeming with xenos infestations. By striking out from Terra into Sol and beyond, humanity takes a major risk of inviting species-ending blowback/retaliation, when the Imperium is perhaps only strong enough to dominate Terra but not much else.

 

We tend to have this impression that once Unity was achieved, the Imperial war-machine rolled out from Terra as an unstoppable juggernought. It seems to me the several decades was a time of supreme vulnerability, a massive gambit in light of the need to beat the Chaos countdown. A make-or-break period of the Imperium, when the Imperium's success or even survival was far from guaranteed. Only with the supreme efforts of the First (aided by much smaller numbers of other legions) did the Imperium transition from tenuous experiment to a truly established order. That new order grew yet stronger for a while before being brought to the brink of destruction by the Rangdans and teetering there. Ultimately, the Imperium prevailed at massive cost. This is a fantastic setting to nourish more fiction...I'd drink it up.

 

A few questions...

 

Does the roughly two-hundred year time-frame of the GC include the Sol campaigns? Sol seems to straddle both.

 

On a side note, why do the FW writers now use Imperium as an adjective and not Imperial anymore? Imperium territory, Imperium assets etc. Anyone else slightly irked?

[Marshal Rohr]

They’re using Imperium as a proper noun like China, Britain, etc. it irks me too, as it kind of goes against the universalist voice someone living in 40K would have.

[b1soul]

It sounds very awkward to my ear...like saying Britain people, Britain beef. But yeah... started with Malevolence I think

[Alpharius902]

As far as I remember, the First Solar War, according to Crusade, is twofold now. First, the I Legion got shipped out to the outer reaches of the system during the last thirty or so years of the Unification Wars to essentially hold the line so the other Legions could have a chance to grow on Terra. Then, once the other Legions got involved post-Luna is when the Crusade “officially” started as the forces of Terra shipped out to individual planets while leaving a cursory force to complete Unification.

[b1soul]

You mean other planets in Sol, right?

[Alpharius902]

You mean other planets in Sol, right?

Yeah, Dark Angels in the Kuiper Belt is still the Unification Wars. The conquest of the rest of the planets later on is Great Crusade.

[Gederas]

I also like how this presents a rather interesting explanation as to why the warrior lodges never really took off with the Dark Angels, since first of all they didn't care much for ideas from the younger legions and second of all why would you need to setup a specific lodge for people to talk frankly with their officers, when the Dark Angels already had the wings and the orders that accomplished much of the same thing?

I mean, it also helped that the Warrior Lodges now simply look like cheap, amateur versions of the Dark Angels societies within the Legion, with the Wings and the Hekatonystika

Edited September 25, 2020 by Gederas

[bluntblade]

 

I also like how this presents a rather interesting explanation as to why the warrior lodges never really took off with the Dark Angels, since first of all they didn't care much for ideas from the younger legions and second of all why would you need to setup a specific lodge for people to talk frankly with their officers, when the Dark Angels already had the wings and the orders that accomplished much of the same thing?

I mean, it also helped that the Warrior Lodges now simply look like cheap, amateur versions of the Dark Angels societies within the Legion, with the Wings and the Hekatonystika

 

I'd say that they were quite different. The Lodges were, after all, just meant to be a space to hang out.

[Iron Hands Fanatic]

 

 

I also like how this presents a rather interesting explanation as to why the warrior lodges never really took off with the Dark Angels, since first of all they didn't care much for ideas from the younger legions and second of all why would you need to setup a specific lodge for people to talk frankly with their officers, when the Dark Angels already had the wings and the orders that accomplished much of the same thing?

I mean, it also helped that the Warrior Lodges now simply look like cheap, amateur versions of the Dark Angels societies within the Legion, with the Wings and the Hekatonystika

 

I'd say that they were quite different. The Lodges were, after all, just meant to be a space to hang out.

 

 

I kinda hope we get a closer look at how the lodges manifested in different Legions at some point, the potential for them spiralling off into different directions due to the different cultures of the Legions has some really interesting potential.

Edited September 25, 2020 by Iron Hands Fanatic

[jaxom]

It doesn’t, it’s a new creation unless it’s in some 1st Edition Space Marine lore no one has access to now

 

It means occult or mystical learning which fits with the tarot themes of the Hosts so I'm guessing it was created along with them.

 

1. I think the Rangda sections are deliberately misleading. I saw a lot of flack directed at these sections on Reddit. I think I can give the FW team some credit here...it's underwhelming on its face because AK is heavily glossing over the campaigns, especially the third one

 

2. I like the DA's Destroyer theme. Their early role was almost like a legion of Destroyer marines, armed with weapons of annihilation. If the SW are the Emperor's internal (supposed) "sanction" against rebels or insubordinates, the DA are the destroyers of terrible, inhuman external threats fit only to be obliterated utterly.

 

3. The flaw of the early First is that they perceived themselves as so elite that they should only assail the "hardest", most horrendous foes (many posing potential existential threats to the Imperium) and therefore suffered heavy attrition across multiple campaigns. They pushed themselves too hard. They overestimated their own abilities. They then lost their edge over other legions, leading them to push themselves even harder...resorting to costly stunts to snatch credit/victories from other legions, choosing, or perhaps compelled, to put on displays of tremendous "heart" at the expense of "brains" to conserve resources.

 

4. AK mentions primarchs forging legends resounding across the galaxy for thousands of years. If AK is writing not too long after The Scouring, this doesn't make sense? Perhaps this is intended to reflect the uncertain provenance of these texts? Or simply a FW oversight?

 

1. Positing that the section was written to back up the rest of the Dark Angel themes, yes. See 2.

 

2. I think it's more along the lines that the Dark Angels were the destroyers of ideological threats; the sort whose mere existence creates ideas and concepts which threaten the foundations of the Imperium. The campaigns against Rangda will seem odd if in that light because then it's, "They were a really big threat because... reasons?" because letting anyone know the reasons brings the threat back.

 

3. If I had been presented with that view at the beginning I think I'd find it compelling. But, for me, by this point there's too many characters/factions who are living in "Only we are loyal/dutiful/pragmatic/whatever enough to accept what needs to be done, and that includes stupid casualties, to keep the wheels of conquest turning at full speed," for this to stand out as a First Legion thing.

 

4. I think its more like there's so much we don't get to see about the Imperium and its spread. Dispatches from the frontlines that take on a life of their own, political offices spreading propaganda, commanders spreading their reputations to get what they want in terms of resources, etc. We know that the legions had their gossip; there's the list of greatest fighters, for example.

 

I might be oversimplifying quite a bit.

 

The First had a bit of a dual purpose early on:

 

In the light, they were the First Legion...the prototype legion used to develop and test the Principia Bellicosa well before any Codex Astartes, a mighty jack (and semi-master) of all trades

 

In the dark (pun intended), the First functioned as the Destroyer Legion...exterminators of the direst threats so vile and potent that ancient proscribed weaponry was the only way to eradicate them. These threats appear mostly to have been now-eradicated xenos breeds but some may have been Warp-related. Indeed, First had even developed their own psychic warfare division which later helped to inspire Sanguinius, Magnus, and the Khan to push for a Librarius.

 

*SNIP*

 

The First also seemed to have cleared the Sol system of certain infestations or xenos colonies and warded off evils attempting to slip into Sol to prey upon the young Imperium. They also seemed to have an obsession with hunting down surviving Thunder Warriors, like how the modern chapter is obsessed with hunting down the The Fallen

 

Note that according to Crusade, it appears that TW replacement had started by the middle years of the Unification Wars. Meaning the force ultimately achieving full Unity and pacification of Terra was likely the First (numbering ten thousand plus or maybe low ten thousands) backed by the nascent legions of other genelines (each only a small fraction of the First's size).

 

I think this reinforces their roles as the ideological Destroyer Legion. We know other legions are involved at Luna and in the conflicts around the outer solar system. It seems like the First Legion ranged out ahead and took care of any threats that didn't fit in with the party line of the Imperial Truth; just like they were deployed against the TW to stop them before the truth of Ararat could be used to raise popular support for their cause.

 

Regarding that and the Unity timeline, from Valdor I got the impression that Ararat and the deployment of the First happened after the Emperor had secured the area around the Himalayas against immediate threat. His movement had secured a geographic local which was now safe enough to establish a government and move onto the more ideological conquests further afield. It was the turning point into the Emperor can't be stopped, but if he wants to achieve planetary conquest before the warp storms clear he still has to hurry. 

 

 

This paints a picture of a legion that has an interesting duality fueled by their insular nature. On one hand they are a legion that is really prideful when they interact with outsiders to the point of arrogance. I especially like the part where AK mentions that the Dark Angels were relatively unfazed by the rebellion because they were accustomed to ignoring Imperial military directives anyway, so the confusion that the official command structure felt at Horus rebelling had no impact on their operations. On the other hand this pride did not seem to factor into the internal workings of the legion, with command and control being assigned more or less on the fly depending on what type of leadership and knowledge would be the most useful in the engagement. This humbleness and neutrality towards useful knowledge no matter the source (as long as the source was a Dark Angel) makes an interesting contrast with their prideful attitude and is, I think, necessary to avoid painting the legion as being more arrogant than Fulgrim. I also like how this presents a rather interesting explanation as to why the warrior lodges never really took off with the Dark Angels, since first of all they didn't care much for ideas from the younger legions and second of all why would you need to setup a specific lodge for people to talk frankly with their officers, when the Dark Angels already had the wings and the orders that accomplished much of the same thing?

 

I think I'm more cynical. I saw it as a false humility; that each group is so self-assured that they're the ones trusted with "The Secret" about a "True Threat" that it created the same sort of arrogance and divisions within the legion.

[b1soul]

I didn't get the sense that they were "ideological" destroyers, more the sense they were given remit to deploy the ancient terrors of the Dark Age and Old Night against foes so vile and difficult to eradicate...only these extreme measures would suffice.

 

Where did you get the ideological angle?

[StrangerOrders]

So... I took time to read over and process the book as a whole now and I wanted to share my thoughts, I admit that some folks will not like what I have to say on this and I want to preface with the fact that on the whole this was a worthwhile book and I agree with a number of the retcons (and we all know that this setting isnt even necessarily solid enough that 'retcon' as a phrase can even be said the same).

 

1. I generally liked Thramas as a story, I thought that it did good enough credit to both of the starring Legions and was quite happy with the inclusion of the Scars besides. I'll be honest and say that I think I tend to diverge in that I don't generally give much of a thought to these sections in the books. They are usually good but I would be lying if I said I considered them much more than an afterthought. We have all been on the Heresy train for a long time and I am honest enough to admit that I view these as more of a wordcount tax than value per say, I want to know of the history and of the generally more interesting Unity and Crusade periods. 

 

2. I really like how the Thramas section was structured and it gave me Conquest vibes in the best way, it is always enjoyable to see the setting fleshed out with distinctive worlds and departures from the oppressive monoliths we usually have to deal with (Deathworld #1532 and the latest knockoff of Necromunda). Its great fuel and I hope we see more of these sections moving forwards.

 

3. The expansion of the Unity is a generally good thing in my book, if mostly because I feel like BL has a bad habit of forgetting that 200 =/= an old marine (and they often fail at making said marines feel old in practice anyhow). Expanding it by as much as two centuries allows for alot more breathing room with properly 'ancient' marines to give credence to the idea of immortality that they somehow already cloak themselves in across the HH, which was previously somewhat hard to take seriously with the number of 200 yrs old humans running around left and right. 

 

4. The DA... oh boy, I did not like this section on the whole. At all. Which leaves me incredulous since this is supposedly the same team that did Malevolence which I think had some of the funnest ideas and concepts with the Vth and especially the IXth (I still give the Revenant Legion the proverbial 'chef's kiss').

 

The DA were, and I hate to say this, essentially the meme of the UMs brought into unironic extremes. The TS perfected combat psykers? Nah man the DA were doing it much earlier and only failed due to tragedy (but didnt suffer a crippling blight in exchange). The IF had the largest fleet? Nah man, the DA had dozens of Glorianas and still dwarfed the IF fleet in vessel count. The UM had the most marines? Nah man, the DA could tank the Rangda and still be one of the largest Legions while the Wolves were shattered and UM had to work their butts off for that number. 

 

I always liked the idea that the DA were privileged in having a repertoire of esoteric constructs, that they were the first generalist Legion and were generally excellent by virtue of being a fair hand at everything. 

 

But here? Come on, they are literally better at every other Legion's gimmick than those Legions while usually having none of the consequences said Legion suffered from.

 

There pride costing them? Sure they had all of a few hard campaigns but it didnt seem to meaningfully stick with them compared to the other Legions that suffered from their egos. The Fourth, Third and Fifteenth could only wish for that minimal a cost to their pride. 

 

And its all so inexplicable to me, where every previous Black Book has worked hard to give pros and cons to each Legion, while also explaining how they facilitated it. The DA just seem to have everything on a platter with minimal costs (since saying a Space Marines flaw is 'pride inducing horrendous attrition' is alot like noting a specific elephant's flaw is its inability to fit through most doorways, its a valid point but its applicable to all elephants and is sort of offset by what you get out of it). 

 

Idk, I've never come out of a Legion Appendix actively irritated before and this one just seems to be getting me more annoyed the more I dwell on it. 

 

I know this is obviously an unpopular opinion and I can respect that, but I honestly think its sort of insane that alot of other Legions (Wolves, UMs, etc) get memed on for their snow flake-y tendencies while this is flying under the radar. Its sort of egregious. 

 

Again, I respect that others might think differently but I am very mixed on this one. And thats a first for me since I have never actually been bothered by a Legion Appendix before.

[Leif Bearclaw]

I also like how this presents a rather interesting explanation as to why the warrior lodges never really took off with the Dark Angels, since first of all they didn't care much for ideas from the younger legions and second of all why would you need to setup a specific lodge for people to talk frankly with their officers, when the Dark Angels already had the wings and the orders that accomplished much of the same thing?

 

Eh, that really didn't work to me. But that might just be because I far preferred the Horus Rising presentation of the Lodges, where they were an extant institution subverted after Horus fell on Davin rather than the 'Lodges = Always Chaos' they seem to have become. But this also means the reason the Lodges didn't take off in the DA is 'they already had them, only better'. Which adds to the aura of 'Marines +1' that the DAs seem to have been given now.

 

 

Final point: since so much of what made the Dark Angels such a capable fighting force in the Great Crusade was this core of veterans acting as a force multiplier when they led their younger brethren, imagine if somebody could fix the wound in the legion and bring in the repentant fallen back to the fold to act as that core again? I mean for the ones that have been the longest in realspace you are talking of millenia of experience that they could leverage, even if some of that experience has been made by being the biggest grox farmer on a forgotten agriworld somewhere. Probably not going to happen in the official timeline, but an interesting thought experiment.

Now this really bothered me, because it doesn't actually make sense. This idea that the DAs were somehow 'more veteran' than the other Legions just doesn't add up. They weren't operating alone for that long in the grand scheme of things (even with the extended timeline of Unification, most Legions seem to have been deployed during the Unification Wars). Then everyone spent 200 odd years conquering the galaxy, which would've provided plenty of veterans for all Legions. Add to that the heavy casualties the First took at various points, culminating in 90% of the Legion KIA during the 2nd Rangdan War, and the idea that the DAs were somehow more 'veteran' than the rest just rings hollow (or again, 'Marines+1').

 

The DA were, and I hate to say this, essentially the meme of the UMs brought into unironic extremes. The TS perfected combat psykers? Nah man the DA were doing it much earlier and only failed due to tragedy (but didnt suffer a crippling blight in exchange). The IF had the largest fleet? Nah man, the DA had dozens of Glorianas and still dwarfed the IF fleet in vessel count. The UM had the most marines? Nah man, the DA could tank the Rangda and still be one of the largest Legions while the Wolves were shattered and UM had to work their butts off for that number. 

 

I always liked the idea that the DA were privileged in having a repertoire of esoteric constructs, that they were the first generalist Legion and were generally excellent by virtue of being a fair hand at everything. 

 

But here? Come on, they are literally better at every other Legion's gimmick than those Legions while usually having none of the consequences said Legion suffered from.

 

There pride costing them? Sure they had all of a few hard campaigns but it didnt seem to meaningfully stick with them compared to the other Legions that suffered from their egos. The Fourth, Third and Fifteenth could only wish for that minimal a cost to their pride. 

 

And its all so inexplicable to me, where every previous Black Book has worked hard to give pros and cons to each Legion, while also explaining how they facilitated it. The DA just seem to have everything on a platter with minimal costs (since saying a Space Marines flaw is 'pride inducing horrendous attrition' is alot like noting a specific elephant's flaw is its inability to fit through most doorways, its a valid point but its applicable to all elephants and is sort of offset by what you get out of it). 

 

Idk, I've never come out of a Legion Appendix actively irritated before and this one just seems to be getting me more annoyed the more I dwell on it. 

 

I know this is obviously an unpopular opinion and I can respect that, but I honestly think its sort of insane that alot of other Legions (Wolves, UMs, etc) get memed on for their snow flake-y tendencies while this is flying under the radar. Its sort of egregious. 

 

Again, I respect that others might think differently but I am very mixed on this one. And thats a first for me since I have never actually been bothered by a Legion Appendix before.

While I wasn't quite as disappointed as you, I do agree there's something off with the fluff here, and the feeling has grown since I read the book for the first time. There's a definite sense of 'Legion creep' with the DAs in Crusade, most strikingly with stuff like their numbers. Taking 90% KIA to the Rangda but still managing to be the 2nd largest Legion by the time of the Heresy (at least officially, I know the WB and AL had undocumented forces)? Just silly. They bounced back from a beating comparable (and worse in absolute numbers) to that any Legion took at Istvaan and it didn't seem to phase them. Their numbers grew to the point that you wouldn't even have known it had happened (2nd largest Legion doesn't exactly scream 'was nearly wiped out'), they still seem to have plenty of their relic ships (despite Advex-mors showing the Rangda were entirely capable of devastating Imperial forces in space, even in defeat). It's like the 'history' and 'war disposition' sections were written by different authors who weren't on speaking terms (or the team just forgot about how attrition is meant to work). I've already laid out my issue with the 'most veteran' Legion shtick.

 

Then there's stuff like the fight in the Rangda Chapter keep, where a dozen DAs (who have been guarding the dead world of the Rangda, so who knows when they last saw real action) wipe out an entire company of Justaerin (so much for the elite of the Warmaster's own Legion I guess...) and then the survivors destroy 4 waves of the best the SoH can throw at them, described as 'the most skilled and vicious of their number...all storied warriors and veterans' and still aren't wiped out. Reducing the SoH to mooks of this level is just disappointing.

[Brother-Captain Gilead]

 

 

 

*snip*

 

I think I'm more cynical. I saw it as a false humility; that each group is so self-assured that they're the ones trusted with "The Secret" about a "True Threat" that it created the same sort of arrogance and divisions within the legion.

 

 

You definitely have a point here, I mean in the book we learn that Malcador himself had to take action to prevent this factionalism from tearing the legion apart. I still stand by what I say though, since apparently after the Lion returned to the legion he was able to mitigate this problem. Part of the mitigation comes naturally, since the factions were no longer vying for who should be the leader of the Legion and instead were trying to do their best to impress the Lion and partly he was smart enough to make sure he didn't play favorites to maintain a balance. As an aside this makes me think that he was probably uniquely suitable to lead this type of legion since he already had experience of leading the armed forces of a world that all consisted of a bunch of different knightly orders, all with their own doctrine and traditions.

 

In this light it makes a lot more sense that he had his seneschal Corswain not be part of any of the factions and not show any symbols or other identifiers of these factions, further communicating to the legion that each tool should be considered in isolation to figure out the right tools for the right job rather than trying to solve every problem with the hammer. Whether he succeeded in it and whether the other commanders of the disparate Dark Angel forces across the galaxy succeeded in it can be debated.

[jaxom]

I didn't get the sense that they were "ideological" destroyers, more the sense they were given remit to deploy the ancient terrors of the Dark Age and Old Night against foes so vile and difficult to eradicate...only these extreme measures would suffice.

 

Where did you get the ideological angle?

 

Two places. One was their role using weapons that were antithetical to the Imperium's normal codes of conduct. It not only puts face to the lie that the Imperium is about moving beyond the Dark Age and Old Night, it goes against one of the main principles of the Imperial Truth: " We are mighty because we are right, Garviel. We are not right because we are mighty. Vile the hour when that reversal becomes our credo." Valdor goes into a bit more detail regarding the Imperium as a tool, but one that works best if no one knows they are part of a tool rather than a part of what the tool is supposed to make. The First Legion know the ideology of the Imperial Truth is flawed and their role is to absolutely erase any evidence, in the form of competing ideologies, beyond any trace.

 

The second is the Imperial Heralds/Word Bringers and the Firewing. The Firewing's Interrogator-Chaplains were responsible for sussing out issues within supposedly complaint populations or for assessing if a world was too far gone for even razing-and-resettlement. Yet, they were also the assassins: they'd make people disappear. Extend the concept of the First as proto-legion to all (or Legion+1 as some have said here) and we see this behavior mimicked by the 17th Legion (particularly what would become the Ashen Circle under Lorgar). The First Legion's suppossed place of trust, however, means they get to deal with actual ideological threats (like, say, anything beyond high-school level of philosophy and ethics) instead of things like, "The sun is not a god, let me tell you about the Imperial Truth."

 

 

 

 

 

*snip*

 

I think I'm more cynical. I saw it as a false humility; that each group is so self-assured that they're the ones trusted with "The Secret" about a "True Threat" that it created the same sort of arrogance and divisions within the legion.

 

 

You definitely have a point here, I mean in the book we learn that Malcador himself had to take action to prevent this factionalism from tearing the legion apart. I still stand by what I say though, since apparently after the Lion returned to the legion he was able to mitigate this problem. Part of the mitigation comes naturally, since the factions were no longer vying for who should be the leader of the Legion and instead were trying to do their best to impress the Lion and partly he was smart enough to make sure he didn't play favorites to maintain a balance. As an aside this makes me think that he was probably uniquely suitable to lead this type of legion since he already had experience of leading the armed forces of a world that all consisted of a bunch of different knightly orders, all with their own doctrine and traditions.

 

In this light it makes a lot more sense that he had his seneschal Corswain not be part of any of the factions and not show any symbols or other identifiers of these factions, further communicating to the legion that each tool should be considered in isolation to figure out the right tools for the right job rather than trying to solve every problem with the hammer. Whether he succeeded in it and whether the other commanders of the disparate Dark Angel forces across the galaxy succeeded in it can be debated.

 

 

Yes, and that's what I wish there were more of; particularly how Caliban and its knights could have been used as foil to the squabbling of the First Legion. It would also have upped the tragedy level that the supposed cure to factionalism was later the source of the greatest schism.

[bluntblade]

I feel like they gave the DA about 1.5 as many Cool Things as they should've. In some ways this feels like a subtler but more pervasive recurrence of my issue with Malevolence's treatment of the BA: the hype comes at the expense of other Legions.

 

Especially the Sons of Horus. It's like FW have forgotten that Horus needs to be impressive.

Edited September 29, 2020 by bluntblade

[StrangerOrders]

I feel like they gave the DA about 1.5 as many Cool Things as they should've. In some ways this feels like a subtler but more pervasive recurrence of my issue with Malevolence's treatment of the BA: the hype comes at the expense of other Legions.

Yeah, its a bit bothersome across the board really. I'd actually really liked the BA in Malevolence (ymmv of course) because it balanced their strengths with playing their flaws to the hilt and giving everything a sort of fragile cast (as well as thankfully giving Sangi some nuance beyond 'the blood made me do it').

 

But here?

 

III: 'Our Gimmick is that we are second best at most everything, despite being crippled by super-cancer and our gimmick is the result of a deeply toxic culture thats a strong gust away from dooming us!'

• Nah man, the DA are actually the best or equal at everything, so I guess the EC were driven to the abyss achieving the Bronze medal?

XIII: 'We might be unlikable bureaucrats with extreme authoritarian tendencies, but through hardwork and careful management of our campaigns and avoiding risky battles, we have achieved an enormous number of marines with good gear!'

• Nah man, the DA can Leeroy jenkins from battle to battle and, despite specifically disliking recruiting outside of Terra, Ars-Goetia-Reference and Caliban and having the median Gene-Seed, we can literally bounce back from 90% losses at a heartbeat. As well as somehow still be equipped to the gills in a seemingly infinite supply of archaeotech.

IV & VII: 'Through our careful building of resources and keen adaption of our siege skills and empire we have built the largest fleet among the Legions and are master fortress makers! Although this has come at grievous losses and humiliations in one case and having to heavily consolidate in the other. The IW might not have as large a fleet but we have suffered greatly to establish impressive supply lines and used our strong gene-seed to accept horrendous losses.'

• Yo dog, I see your big fleets and supply lines. And I raise you Gloriana lead battle groups and a world which can somehow match Macragge, the Inwit Cluster and the Empire of Iron while also somehow producing Archaeotech and esoterica which was supposed to be either lost or catastrophically dangerous to build.

VI: 'We are deeply favored by the Emp (and spited Horus in the process) and have all of these cool supplies and treasures while being very proud. This has predictably meant that we are regularly mind-wiped, are iffy on our own history, are so widely hated that everyone literally thinks we are idiots and that weathering the ire of charisma incarnate for two centuries has predictably screwed us.'

• Nah man, everyone loves our edginess and despite our victories being too awesome for your normy minds we can weather it just fine and actually have cool mini temples everywhere to honor our awesomeness. Also, Horus disliking us for centuries has had literally no consequence and we are widely beloved despite literally being team-killers and purposely being creepy.

XV: 'Our power and knowledge of the aetheric has literally doomed us from the beginning, our secrecy has made climbing out of this pit we dug ourselves into a two century long humiliation and our warp-tech is about two seconds away from going insane.

• Dude, I totally feel for you. We literally lost our first commander and like a company and it was really sucky. We only had two of those over three centuries until the Lion but still. We even invented comba psyker Astartes (You welcome bro) but they made this one fight kind of hard so we just resorted to our magic closet of super-reliable archaeotech that has somehow never backfired. Although needing two centuries to recover from near-complete destruction is kind of weak man.

It really just carries on like that, like you start questioning if Magnus got a raw deal and if the Lion somehow struck a bargain with the Chaos God of Author Fiat.

 

Idk, its weird because I came into this one really hyped to finally see the DA in all of their glory and its just... idk. 

 

Like, how are you admired and envied while simultaneously being super mysterious, deleting the records of most of your campaigns and scaring your allies due to regularly killing them and purposely scaring them? Thats like wanting to behave like Night Lords and getting a Salamander Rep somehow.

Edited September 29, 2020 by StrangerOrders

[bluntblade]

It is kinda comical how many of the exemplary battles involve them losing those priceless relic-ships, when the text mentions them being cross about the Imperial Fists amassing an awesome fleet.

[Scribe]

Massive yikes. It seems FW has utterly lost the plot.

[jaxom]

Massive yikes. It seems FW has utterly lost the plot.

 

I prefer to think the best about any author's approach to their work (I like to focus on the good), but I'd love an honest overview of how the Dark Angel narrative got brainstormed, decided on, and spun forward from start to where we are now.

[StrangerOrders]

 

Massive yikes. It seems FW has utterly lost the plot.

 

I prefer to think the best about any author's approach to their work (I like to focus on the good), but I'd love an honest overview of how the Dark Angel narrative got brainstormed, decided on, and spun forward from start to where we are now.

 

I want to agree with you here, and I would certainly welcome any sort of commentary.

 

But I think the appendix is still a strike for me when it comes down to it, its a good book in alot of ways as I said above, but when it comes down to it the appendix is what I came here for.

 

Sort of like how a good appetizer and dessert dont make up for a really poor main dish, especially an expensive one you have spent a long time salivating over.

 

That is not to say I am not buying the next one or that I suddenly think the team is horrid. I really liked Malevolence and have defended it too often to be anything but a base hypocrite if I suddenly decided they were the worst team ever.

 

So, a good one and a bad one for me. Two good legions and a bad one. 

 

My end impression on the team is neutral leaning on positive after this after learning both books have the same one because I came out really liking Malevolence still and I am flabbergasted at what a departure this is.

 

But I do think an author does have the right to make mistakes and explain themselves and just because I have a poor opinion does not mean I am going to be jeering them on the digital streets (I can and probably will jeer the work a bit, but I do think thats different from attacking the writer). I would want to see their reasoning though and at least the admission to the possibility that not all of their choices were necessarily the best ones here.

 

Heck, alot of HH books make alot more sense or are much better when you factor in after-the-fact comments and afterwards. Although I know some have different opinions on that score and I do respect the stance.

 

And again, more power to those that loved this appendix and I welcome you to rebut my points if you want to, since I think I have done a decent-ish job of expanding on what exactly my issues were (if admittedly in a bit of a tongue-in-cheek manner). Just please lets be nice about it eh? 

Edited September 29, 2020 by StrangerOrders

[Lord_Caerolion]

I think they just oversold how awesome they remained. They were the trailblazers, so had to specialize in everything, so ended up good at everything. However, it made them hidebound and inflexible, they eventually got outclassed by the "specialist" Legions, and they would have ended up destroying themselves if things had continued as they did.

[WrathOfTheLion]

They did perhaps go a bit far on it, but they had already set that this was how they operated, that they could do just about everything from being the 1st Legion. The reason perhaps they could go a bit farther is the same reason they could make Sanguinius much better than his brethren, we know Sanguinius dies. Similarly, we know the first legion goes down in flames but a few years after the end of the heresy.