Have GW painted themself into a corner. Deathwing.

[Grimdarkness]

Is the Deathwing done for with the new age of Primaris marines or well we see primaris terminators in the future.

[Marshal Loss]

Nobody knows. It's probable we'll see Primaris Terminator equivalents in some point in the future but all we can do is speculate.

 

Either way, the Deathwing aren't gone: Bladeguard Veterans are members of the Deathwing according to new GW lore. A controversial move but it is what it is

 

Edited September 12, 2020 by Marshal Loss

[Gederas]

The Space Wolf and Deathwatch codex supplement trailers clearly showed Terminators. Deathwing aren't done at all.

 

How about we, you know, wait and see?

[Angel of Solitude]

Is a company of chapter veterans done for? Absolutely not. We’ve had one glimpse of Primaris Deathwing Veterans in the form Bladeguard, and I see no reason why wouldn’t get any more in the future - perhaps a Gravis variant.

 

Are we going to see a Primaris equivalent of Firstborn terminator armour? No, not when you have so many variants of MkX armour. Want an immovable high-volume firebase? Aggressors. Need a tough close combat unit? Bladeguard.

 

The one thing I think is missing from the Primaris armoury is a teleportarium-based unit, which is one of the core strengths of the Deathwing Terminators. From a gameplay mechanic, Strategic Reserves is a compromise, albeit at a command point cost. But how easy would it be for the Dark Angels Techmarines to fit teleportation technology to a Bladeguard unit?

 

I get that for some, Deathwing = exclusively Bone white TDA, and that’s been discussed quite extensively on this board. For me, Deathwing = company veterans - both Primaris and Firstborn - inducted to the Deathwing Inner Circle. They can wear whatever variant of bone white armour they chose.

[Bryan Blaire]

If anything, GW has literally painted their way out of the corner on Deathwing... a little bit of lore tweak and some bone color on other armor types, and viola - no more corner.

[Berzul]

I think that it is clear, more and more, that what was discussed over a year ago has come to pass, and will continue to be so:

 

Deathwing are not, and will not again be, a Terminator company.

 

That era of the Deathwing is gone and done for. Deathwing are now a Veterans Company like any other. With Marines of various shapes and sizes, using different armor as the mission requires it.

 

Even if and when GW releases "Primaris Terminators", you will already have had non-terminator units in the company.

 

Its the end of a long standing tradition, and it may pain many of us, but that is just the way it is. We retain the flavour, lore and mission that our chapter background gives us, but we are not, and will not go back to be, a Terminator-only Company. Not for the time being, at least.

Edited September 12, 2020 by Berzul

[Fierce Bear]

I do see the Primaris and the enormous variants (98 datasheet or pages is it in the new codex?) as Gullimans retcon of his own Codex Astartes, I think the Lion would have a chuckle...

 

So I look at it as Deathwing is expanding back out from being Terminators only once more...

 

That's how I prefer to think about it...

[Bryan Blaire]

You can also just ignore it if the meta-story GW is developing isn't your thing - if you want the Deathwing to be TDA armored only, then just never paint anything else in bone for the company and ignore their lore or change it in your mind. They have no guns to anyone's head requiring acknowledgement of their writing.

[Berzul]

Yeah, pretty much. That is part of the beauty of it all.

[Joe]

... just build for a different era? You're entirely capable of saying your army is from an earlier millenium.

[shabbadoo]

The ultimate fate of the Deathwing has come up before. I think it is actually a promising sign for the Deathwing that the Dark Angels are not among the initial Codex Supplements. It could very well mean that the codex has been put off until Primaris "Terminators" (or whatever they may be called)  are released.  No other Chapter has such a thing with Terminators as Dark Angels do, and a new kit like this would be a marque release very appropriately highlighted as part of the Dark Angels Codex Supplement release. It would also be a good time to feature a Primaris Heavy Transport (a.k.a. the Land Raider replacement). Add in some Primarisized characters - Azrael, Belial, Sammael - and it would be a decent release. On more bit: Primaris "Devastators"  would be appropriate for a Dark Angels release too, considering their Chapter Tactics.

[WrathOfTheLion]

I don't think there will be primaris terminators, just terminators. So eventually they just rescale what is there.

 

The changes in the Deathwing I am fine with. To me, it looks like they are aligning it to be how it was in the HH Hexagrammaton.

[evilhomer]

Personal opinion: could've been avoided by a minor tweak in the background of company vets: have company vets as a rotating pool of veterans, where most are senior members of that company who are potential candidates for the Deathwing, as well as marines who have already served in the Deathwing but who have been rotated back into the company as they're being groomed for senior leadership positions. Those marines would then become Lieutenants and then Masters. In this scenario, Veteran Intercessors and Blade Guard would be the Primaris equivalents of company vets, and would therefore be painted green and not white.

 

Side note: would've preferred Dark Angels to have their own naming convention rather than stick with Lieutenant. Master Sergeant would've been a good candidate name in my book. 

 

Sort of related - in the video for the marine book, when the two GW staff were talking about all marines except Grey Knights having access to all the stuff in the book, did they mean the new Primaris stuff, or actually, all the marine stuff? Because that would also mean "Deathwing" Stern and Vanguard. If you like the idea of having Sternguard and Vanguard in your Dark Angels, but are reluctant to paint them white, you could make the thematic choice to have those units represent the company vets from the reserve companies. 

[WrathOfTheLion]

There will be units disallowed, they said that as well. This is already the case with Black Templars and Librarians.

[Berzul]

Which units do you think we will see being disallowed? Edited September 13, 2020 by Berzul

[WrathOfTheLion]

Sternguard, Vanguard and the Codex terminators, excluding cataphractii and tartaros, seem likely. Anything that our units replace.

[Angel of Solitude]

Sternguard, Vanguard and the Codex terminators, excluding cataphractii and tartaros, seem likely. Anything that our units replace.

Essentially anything we don't currently have access too...so add Centurions and Thunderfire cannons to that list too.

 

There is some conversation going on about what the CORE keyword means on some of the new Primaris data sheets, and I think the best explanation is exactly this - those that have CORE we get access to, in addition to the unique units that we get in our supplement.

[WrathOfTheLion]

The storm speeder doesn't have the core keyword however, but has all that wording for Ravenwing.

 

My guess is core means it bypasses rule of three, or you are required to take a certain number of core units, like compulsory troops in Horus Heresy.

[Aeri]

GW just made Deathwing Knights far worse and marked them as big winners of the updated storm shields...

golly gee.

[Berzul]

Nothing can be done... the whole game is gearing towards:

1) Making things more lethal
2) Making things die faster

3) Making killing enemies worth less overall, with focus being on surviving over objectives

 

We can expect DWKs to become much more fragile, just like everything else.

[Aeri]

Well, I actually don't mind the focus on objectives. I just hate how knights got kicked in the butt now.

If we get Deathwing Bladeguard knights with maces I may let this one slide.

[Berzul]

Well, ALL storm shield wielding units get the same treatement. At least it will be balanced.

[Aeri]

Except for a 2+ 3++ unit the Bonus armor is wasted and the invuln just got worse

[Berzul]

If you have a 2+ model with a +1 to a save, and a 4++ save, when it gets hit with an AP-1 weapon, you save on a 2+ (since a natural 1 always fails)

If you have a 2+ model with a 3++ save, when it gets hit with an AP-1 weapon, you save on a 3+, which is the same with regular or invulnerable save

 

In the end, the change DOES make the unit better against AP-1 weapons.

[solarisqc]

I don't think it will happen, but the best thing that can happen to Deathwing is to have the rules to give them objective secure.

 

In the background, it's how the deathwing work, they move to an objective and keep it safe until the objective is accomplish (sometime capturing a fallen, most of the time another task).

 

It's the only way to trully represent the DA on tabletop. Ravenwing are the scout, greenwing are the force staying on the backfield and protecting the backline or flank and the Deathwing are the force that go at the heart of battle to CAPTURE OBJECTIVE...