Boycotting Heavy Intercessor lists

[Lucerne]

In the plausible scenario where these are undercosted and overeffective for what they bring and don't have enough meaningful counters, how many of you would politely refuse to play against lists and players that include them until GW fixes the pricing in about a year or so, as they've done before with the "new hotness" once they've sold enough?

 

Players that claim to like the models could just run them as regular Intercessors.

 

Obviously official events are a lost cause, but if enough people collectively said they weren't comfortable playing against people that exploited intentionally bad pricing by GW to make the usual rush for the new toys less appealing, would that make a meaningful difference in the toxic effect they'd have on gameplay?

 

Food for thought.

Edited September 13, 2020 by Lucerne

[Scribe]

Are they that busted?

[Blindhamster]

no, they aren't that busted, assuming they're costed at at least 30ppm

[Lucerne]

Are they that busted?

Magic 8 ball says "maybe"- this is a hypothetical.

 

Consider it a thought experiment, though. GW releases broken unit rules in a blatant cash grab for the latest release with the implication that it'll get rebalanced once sales are exhausted like they usually do. How does the community, collectively, handle That One Broken Unit and the people that spam it in the meantime?

 

no, they aren't that busted, assuming they're costed at at least 30ppm

Assuming. And even then it shouldn't exist in the first place tbh.

Edited September 13, 2020 by Lucerne

[Klod]

I loved my Space Marines when they were one of the weakest factions in the game.

[Gederas]

I'm expecting this thread to get locked very quickly. Holy knee-jerk reaction Batman!

 

Players that claim to like the models could just run them as regular Intercessors.

Or, you know.... You can just let people play with their toys how they want and not make them run their toys as not what their toys are?
 

[mughi3]

Well i don't play 9th, only 5th ed with some house rules or epic scale via 8th ed rules. at epic scale the latter isn't really an issue since there is so much stuff happening and so many units.....and they were not that broken in index 8th. 

[General Strike]

They're one PL less than custodes, who have better melee, access to better invulns, and a 2+ armor save versus the 3+ of the heavy intercessors. It really seems like jumping the gun...

[Lucerne]

I'm expecting this thread to get locked very quickly. Holy knee-jerk reaction Batman!

 

Players that claim to like the models could just run them as regular Intercessors.

Or, you know.... You can just let people play with their toys how they want and not make them run their toys as not what their toys are?

 

They're not playing with themselves. Hence the issue. Playing against someone is a two way street and the question is "Is intentionally bringing a broken unit like Heavy Intercessors may end up being an act done in bad faith"?

 

Edited September 13, 2020 by Lucerne

[Scribe]

Assuming they are really busted, and assuming people are playing in person (covid yo) and assuming there are official events that demonstrate them as busted, would they ever just hotfix them with a FAQ?

[Lucerne]

Assuming they are really busted, and assuming people are playing in person (covid yo) and assuming there are official events that demonstrate them as busted, would they ever just hotfix them with a FAQ?

Why would they? The busting would be intentional in that scenario and of course all the people that buy buckets of them would be in denial that there's a problem.

 

The scenario being described is:

a)Heavy Intercessors are intentionally too good for their drawbacks

b)GW lets things carry on until they've sold enough of them

c)eventually adjusts rules a year or so down the line, maybe with a FAQ as you describe

 

This has happened before and my question is "in this scenario, why should anyone else indulge the people that rush out to buy Gravis knowing- and because- the rules won't be balanced until GW meets a sales quota?"

 

Isn't that a major violation of the implicit agreement between both players?

Edited September 13, 2020 by Lucerne

[Tyriks]

This seems really premature.  Might as well make a similar thread for every unit yet to come out, since any of them could be an issue.

[Lucerne]

This seems really premature.  Might as well make a similar thread for every unit yet to come out, since any of them could be an issue.

I mean what we've seen of the Heavy Intercessor doesn't look promising, but feel free to insert [New Space Marine release X] here if it helps? The point is that Heavy Intercessors seem purpose built to cheat and disrupt faction balancing.

Edited September 13, 2020 by Lucerne

[Scribe]

 

Assuming they are really busted, and assuming people are playing in person (covid yo) and assuming there are official events that demonstrate them as busted, would they ever just hotfix them with a FAQ?

Why would they? The busting would be intentional in that scenario and of course all the people that buy buckets of them would be in denial that there's a problem.

 

The scenario being described is:

a)Heavy Intercessors are intentionally too good for their drawbacks

b)GW lets things carry on until they've sold enough of them

c)eventually adjusts rules a year or so down the line, maybe with a FAQ as you describe

 

This has happened before and my question is "in this scenario, why should anyone else indulge the people that rush out to buy Gravis knowing- and because- the rules won't be balanced until GW meets a sales quota?"

 

Isn't that a major violation of the implicit agreement between both players?

 

 

I mean....there are some assumptions being made here that I'm not experienced enough in the current game play and design integrity (as in honesty) to really weigh in on I guess.

 

We know from past interviews that Sales would lead to some units being pushed to a comical degree and left in that busted state.

 

Is that still taking place? If so, then...yeah they will be left in that state.

 

If you are a competitive gamer, you'll either run them, or you will run things to counter them by warping your list building. If that CANNOT happen, then they will eventually be nerfed, assuming there are official events to demonstrate that they are busted, and that GW cares enough about the game side (competitive) to balance it.

[Blindhamster]

 

Assuming they are really busted, and assuming people are playing in person (covid yo) and assuming there are official events that demonstrate them as busted, would they ever just hotfix them with a FAQ?

Why would they? The busting would be intentional in that scenario and of course all the people that buy buckets of them would be in denial that there's a problem.

 

The scenario being described is:

a)Heavy Intercessors are intentionally too good for their drawbacks

b)GW lets things carry on until they've sold enough of them

c)eventually adjusts rules a year or so down the line, maybe with a FAQ as you describe

 

This has happened before and my question is "in this scenario, why should anyone else indulge the people that rush out to buy Gravis knowing- and because- the rules won't be balanced?"

 

Isn't that a major violation of the implicit agreement between both players?

 

no, because most people will buy them because they like the models, they'd need to be very cheap to be broken, i really can't see them being less than 30ppm though, the squads rules seem good but not horrific.

 

really does feel like a huge kneejerk reaction

[Tyriks]

 

This seems really premature.  Might as well make a similar thread for every unit yet to come out, since any of them could be an issue.

I mean what we've seen of the Heavy Intercessor doesn't look promising, but feel free to insert [New Space Marine release X] here if it helps? The point is that Heavy Intercessors seem purpose built to cheat and disrupt faction balancing.

Cheat?  How is any of this about cheating?  

Edited September 13, 2020 by Nemesor Tyriks

[Klod]

[deleted original message]

 

I'm just gona stop reading B&C for a week, like I did with reddit. My sanity is shattering.

Edited September 13, 2020 by Klod

[Lucerne]

In what way is using official rules cheating?  

 

 

This seems really premature.  Might as well make a similar thread for every unit yet to come out, since any of them could be an issue.

I mean what we've seen of the Heavy Intercessor doesn't look promising, but feel free to insert [New Space Marine release X] here if it helps? The point is that Heavy Intercessors seem purpose built to cheat and disrupt faction balancing.

Cheat?  How is any of this about cheating?  

If you brought heavy intercessors in this hypothetical knowing that GW intentionally made their points values undercosted, then I'd consider that cheating, officially sanctioned or otherwise. Someone saying they "just like the models" is pretty much a fig leaf for that once they start saturating official games...because it's not the modelling shelf that'd be reason for concern, is it?

Edited September 13, 2020 by Lucerne

[Scribe]

Its not cheating. Its competitive play. Cheating, is breaking rules. No rules are broken in taking a poorly balanced unit.

[Doghouse]

I mean all this respectfully but It wouldn't achieve anything what so ever.

 

I'd wait till the codex drops before worrying. I for one would never refuse an opponent because I didn't approve of a unit and there is no way in the warp there would be a mass boycott, it's just not feasible and will never happen.

 

Even if they are over powered right now no one has the foresight to say this is not in response to even bigger threats further down the line because right now you have nothing other than Death Guard and Necrons to compare it with.

 

And what happens if my opponent has a model in their army I don't approve of, do I refuse to play them because I don't like them? Ulitmately that just leads to lists of pre-approved armies. Who then decides what what people can use? See what I mean?

 

The problem with pricing is GW know people will pay their prices, it's been the same for years and won't change ever.

 

Now you want to agree with your friends not to use them then that is completely fair enough, that is entirely up to you. But I for one will be buying them.

[Lucerne]

Its not cheating. Its competitive play. Cheating, is breaking rules. No rules are broken in taking a poorly balanced unit.

 

No written rules, hence it'd be officially sanctioned cheating. It's certainly dishonest (the implicit assumption of a level playing field) and unfair, so I'd feel comfortable saying players that do it would be cheats in that hypothetical.

 

I mean all this respectfully but It wouldn't achieve anything what so ever.

 

I'd wait till the codex drops before worrying. I for one would never refuse an opponent because I didn't approve of a unit and there is no way in the warp there would be a mass boycott, it's just not feasible and will never happen.

 

Even if they are over powered right now no one has the foresight to say this is not in response to even bigger threats further down the line because right now you have nothing other than Death Guard and Necrons to compare it with.

 

And what happens if my opponent has a model in their army I don't approve of, do I refuse to play them because I don't like them? Ulitmately that just leads to lists of pre-approved armies. Who then decides what what people can use? See what I mean?

 

The problem with pricing is GW know people will pay their prices, it's been the same for years and won't change ever.

 

Now you want to agree with your friends not to use them then that is completely fair enough, that is entirely up to you. But I for one will be buying them.

I mean, that's sort of making my point- why should anyone play something that doesn't have its counters released yet? Logically, it makes more sense to push for a collective agreement not to bring Gravis until those counters actually come out.

 

And, well, yes? Playing games is a two way street, so the idea of pushback against Gravis should be on the table- and bringing these units in this hypothetical is pretty much a violation of the agreement for fair play.

 

As for effectiveness, if enough players refused to play against Heavy Intercessors, you'd see fewer of them being brought. Peer pressure is pretty much the only efficient way to discourage bad faith list building.

Edited September 13, 2020 by Lucerne

[Marshal Reinhard]

 

If you brought heavy intercessors in this hypothetical knowing that GW intentionally made their points values undercosted, then I'd consider that cheating, officially sanctioned or otherwise. Someone saying they "just like the models" is pretty much a fig leaf for that.

 

I mean, this sort of attitude would ensure I would be the one declining any potential game.

[Tyriks]

Someone using official rules in the way they are intended isn't cheating, regardless of how you may feel about it.  And we don't even know that they will be an issue.  And on top of that some people actually do just play models they like.  

[Marshal Loss]

Even if they're broken as all hell, I'm not going to turn down a friendly game against somebody just because they're using them, just as I would expect people not to turn down games against me if (e.g.) EC come out and turn out to be broken as hell

Edited September 13, 2020 by Marshal Loss

[Lucerne]

 

 

If you brought heavy intercessors in this hypothetical knowing that GW intentionally made their points values undercosted, then I'd consider that cheating, officially sanctioned or otherwise. Someone saying they "just like the models" is pretty much a fig leaf for that.

 

I mean, this sort of attitude would ensure I would be the one declining any potential game.

 

I mean, that'd honestly be your right- and frankly, if you brought heavy intercessors in that hypothetical, I think we'd both rather not play each other in the first place?

 

Even if they're broken as all hell, I'm not going to turn down a friendly game against somebody just because they're using them, just as I would expect people not to turn down games against me if (e.g.) EC come out and turn out to be broken as hell

Let's be honest: we're not talking a what-if for EC, we're talking That One EC Unit with Ridiculous Rules and suspiciously priced to go with it, right after the wave is released and with the expectation that it'll be fixed a year later. But that's your call, I suppose.

 

Edited September 13, 2020 by Lucerne