Raven Guard Heavy Intercessors

[L30n1d4s]

While in the lore RG are all about stealthy/fast moving infantry that sneak up on their opponent and ambush them to devastating effect with close in shooting and melee, on the tabletop their (soon to be updated) rules really seem to really mesh well with slower, tougher, long-range infantry... infantry like the new Heavy Intercessors that GW just previewed.

 

Think about it: with the ability to put a 5 man, 15W/T5/3+ save squad on an objective in your own DZ and then, for free, give that squad Light Cover (so 2+ save), Dense Cover (-1 to hit), and 4 × S5 AP-2 Dmg2 shots and 2 x S5 AP-2 Dmg3 shots, all at 42" (so almost the whole Board in terms of coverage), plus have this squad be Objective Secured, you have an incredible little firebase/backfield objective camper.

 

On top of this, Turns 2 and 3, if those units can get a bead on an enemy Character who happens to slip outside the 3" Look Out, Sir! bubble, then that same squad gains +1 to Hit and +1 to Wound for their shooting, which is more than enough to bring down even tougher enemy Characters.

Edited September 13, 2020 by L30n1d4s

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

While in the lore RG are all about stealthy/fast moving infantry that sneak up on their opponent and ambush them to devastating effect with close in shooting and melee, on the tabletop their (soon to be updated) rules really seem to really mesh well with slower, tougher, long-range infantry... infantry like the new Heavy Intercessors that GW just previewed.

 

Think about it: with the ability to put a 5 man, 15W/T5/3+ save squad on an objective in your own DZ and then, for free, give that squad Light Cover (so 2+ save), Dense Cover (-1 to hit), and 4 × S5 AP-2 Dmg2 shots and 2 x S5 AP-2 Dmg3 shots, all at 42" (so almost the whole Board in terms of coverage), plus have this squad be Objective Secured, you have an incredible little firebase/backfield objective camper.

 

On top of this, Turns 2 and 3, if those units can get a bead on an enemy Character who happens to slip outside the 3" Look Out, Sir! bubble, then that same squad gains +1 to Hit and +1 to Wound for their shooting, which is more than enough to bring down even tougher enemy Characters.

SIgn me up.  Have you had any luck using google translate to decipher their loadout options?

[Dracos]

I'll be using Aggressors and/or Inceptors to strip away those units protecting the Characters. This is definitely a great backfield unit regardless of the weapon option chosen . . . depending on where the points fall.

[Espresso]

In general I have found that the Raven Guard is the best option for infantry heavy armies. The Heavy Intercessors are surely an interesting unit and could work well as a backfield unit. Though I think they need to be supplemented with the Infiltrators and the Incursors in order to play the objective game better.

 

Still it depends a lot on the cost of the new unit and of their loadouts. Considering that the board is now smaller, even 24'' weapons are now threatening. 

[MajorNese]

These guys are definitely interesting. Since in 9th you have to survive one enemy round on an objective to score, these guys will be worth it for backfield objective camping.

 

Even with the assault gun variant that's 30" range, which is useful since they may need to advance to get to an objective in the first place, and they can still fire at the enemy deployment zone. 42" for the heavy version seems excessive, but a single unit might be useful as counter-snipers, and it would be the only variant where the one-in-five support weapon upgrade would make sense.

 

Just in the midfield it's unclear for me if they are such a great idea. Regular intercessors are faster, cheaper and better in CC (more attacks per points, sergeant options), and Incursors can push forward without spending CP or abilities on them. Otherwise, a full unit redeployed into the midfield will hold an objective without too much hassle.

 

Now the question is, what options does the captain have? If it were possible to take the heavy gun variant and maybe drop the sword, then that would be a damn good choice for korvidari bolts. The resulting 48" range, ignoring LoS at S5 AP-2 3D would be a threat for any unshielded character on the board.

[L30n1d4s]

If the Heavy Intercessor Sgt can take a Executer HB, then you can give him Korvadari Bolts with the special Strat allowing Sgts to take selected Special Issue Wargear items... that means he can have the Heavy 2, 48" range (ignore LOS), S5 AP-2 Dmg 3 shots you describe, just at BS3+ vice BS2+ of a Captain.

[MajorNese]

If the Heavy Intercessor Sgt can take a Executer HB, then you can give him Korvadari Bolts with the special Strat allowing Sgts to take selected Special Issue Wargear items... that means he can have the Heavy 2, 48" range (ignore LOS), S5 AP-2 Dmg 3 shots you describe, just at BS3+ vice BS2+ of a Captain.

1. Korvidari bolts can only fire one shot, so he would lose half his shots.

2. Only Heavy Intercessor models can replace their gun, not Heavy Intercessor Sergeant. Those are two different profiles and names in the datasheet. So while the sarge may get korvidari bolts, he doesn't get the support weapon.

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

I think for me what will come down to them getting used is stratagems. I think it's likely we will get a reprint of Target Sighted (or whatever its called) that lets you shoot characters with Stalker Bolt Rifles. If the same stratagem is available to Executor Bolt Rifles (and their heavy variant) I think we could have a real winner for us. I think at the end of the day this unit is best suited camping an objective at a far distance, and plugging away at high value targets. As has already been mentioned, bigger groups of Intercessors are superior for controlling the midfield (and Incursors), Infiltrators are better for deterring the enemy and control.

 

It'll come down to stratagems and points cost. 

 

On a side note: I love the models, and I look forward to a future where we have a primaris analog land raider (bigger than the repulsor) or the Overlord, and it can transport 10 of these guys up the midfield to swamp a central objective.

[War of the Eagle]

Im rather looking forward to these new models for my Raptors. Not sure which gun choice I should take but im leaning tward the assault variant. With even the assault varients range I should be able to kite outside the coming 18" stealthy range.

[Debauchery101]

I play mostly infantry armies for raptors but i don't think that these will be very useful unless theyre under 30 points a model. Im mostly looking forward to vanguard vets. If you use Lias then its good to have some firstborns..5- 2 wound double astartes chainswords(sgt w/hammer/sword) jump infantry for 110 points that can redeploy and make an extra move prior to 1st turn dumps on a lot of options Edited September 15, 2020 by Debauchery101

[Alcyon]

Interesting that you guys are attracted to the Heavy options - I can see that being solid if Target Sighted comes down for them, but for my points the major strength of these guys is their T3 and 3W and that seems wasted in the backline.

 

I'll be bringing these guys onto an objective using Strike from the Shadows and running them with the Hellstorm variants all around (and one Hellstorm Heavy Bolter.) Like I said in the thread in the News forum, at 140pts 5x Heavy Intercessors net you 15 t5 wounds versus 7x Intercessors which net you 14 T4 wounds - I think that is the true strength of this squad, you essentially get the same number of wounds for the points and t5 for free, with comparable impact firing at range.

[Debauchery101]

Interesting that you guys are attracted to the Heavy options - I can see that being solid if Target Sighted comes down for them, but for my points the major strength of these guys is their T3 and 3W and that seems wasted in the backline.

 

I'll be bringing these guys onto an objective using Strike from the Shadows and running them with the Hellstorm variants all around (and one Hellstorm Heavy Bolter.) Like I said in the thread in the News forum, at 140pts 5x Heavy Intercessors net you 15 t5 wounds versus 7x Intercessors which net you 14 T4 wounds - I think that is the true strength of this squad, you essentially get the same number of wounds for the points and t5 for free, with comparable impact firing at range.

Maybe I missed it but..are they going to be troops or elites? Even with the beefier stats...no sgt weapon upgrade and theyre slower.

A unit of Eradicators could wipe them in 1 round.

For me my Intercessors play as my react troops not to mention being armed with stalkers i can use them to character hunt as well.

 

I think GW missed the opportunity to increase sales and the opportunity to give players options within 1 purchase.

 

They should make the heavy intercessors into a Gravis Squad. 5 to 10 models. Option to take a couple heavy weapons, take the gauntlet variants and the new rifles. Cuz now people either want them or they don't at all. I have over 30 aggressors from the dark imperium and tooth n claw, as well as 12 Eradicators.

[MajorNese]

Interesting that you guys are attracted to the Heavy options - I can see that being solid if Target Sighted comes down for them, but for my points the major strength of these guys is their T3 and 3W and that seems wasted in the backline.

The heavy version has one use that the others (including regular Intercessors) don't have, as resilient counter-snipers, while filling only a troops slot. Dislodging them requires AT weaponry, their range covers most of the board, and they have enough AP and damage to pick apart anything south of gravis marines, even in cover. There will be even more astartes armies out there in the future than there were already, that's the number one target we have to prepare for, and now marines have a more distinct profile due to 2W.

 

The hellstorm variant is the most useful when you are actually moving, that's clear. Just like regular Intercessors, higher number of shots compensates lack of D and AP, and 30" range with full number of shots and the option to advance and shoot just beats the other options when it comes to a non-backfield role.

[Jacques Corbin]

Am I crazy, or do we get the most mileage out of the stock Heavy Bolt Rifles? I mean, if I really wanted to be an :cuss-hole I would take a Primaris Apothecary, give him Hero of the Chapter, and the Master of Ambush trait, to plop him and a 10 man squad of Heavy Intercessors on a midfield objective, then Combat Squad the Heavy Intercessors.

 

A lot of people just say take a second squad, and that combat squad is niche. Well, if your opponent throws as much firepower as they can muster, then they can focus down 30 wounds of T5 and a 3+ save, but it is a gamble to try and devote just enough to shoot 15 wounds off that objective, and still have enough to sweep the other 15 away afterwards. Then, if they can't finish either squad, there is an Apothecary to revive and heal.

 

But back to the stock Heavy Bolt Rifles, they are just going to camp on that objective anyway, so they will double tap because of Bolter Discipline, and out to 36 inches. It makes me wonder if Heavy Bolters are even worth it for them.

Edited September 27, 2020 by Jacques Corbin

[Jaipii]

And if the Chief Apothecary upgrade is changed to be payed in points, you could go all in by making him your Warlord with Master of the Trifold Path. Giving him MoA and the Father of the Future warlord-traits and the Healer's Aegis relic. This would give the Heavy Intercessor units within 6" a 6+++ FNP save and 5++ invulnerable save to models within 1" of your Apothecary :) Just mayyybe too many eggs in the same basket ;)

[Dracos]

Lol yeah aces too many resources expended for too little return.

 

imo the best use of Heavy Intercessors is as backfield campers. As much as I like Grav it would seem like quite an investment for a position that doesn’t get challenged all that much with most of 9e action being midfield. All this will change of course if the sgt gets access to to the armory.

 

If I’m going to use these then I need to reconfigure my list to account for the point difference between these and two units of Stalkers or Eliminators that I have been using for backfield camping. I estimate that’s about a 40 to 45 point difference. That’s a pretty step cut for a list that’s running pure Primaris.

 

I honestly feel as we run this through the numbers and field test, that Heavy Intercessors might end up in the same spot as Reivers as far as needing those points spent in a different manner for the good of the army as a whole. It’s going to be fun finding out and regardless I imagine I’ll paint 10 because I love Gravis.

[Jacques Corbin]

See, my point WAS for the good of the army. 10, with no upgrades, and then the CP for Tactical Flexibility, with a Primaris Apothecary, CP for Hero of the Chapter, and Master of Ambush trait. Your opponent has to gamble on his shooting. He has to dedicate just enough to sweep 15 wounds of T5 and 3+ (remember to factor in cover and Chapter Tactics as applicable) and then do it again. How much shooting do you think he will have left for the rest of your army?

 

Tau will need to devote Marker Lights, which will really drive them bonkers. Otherwise they are 4+ to hit, and 4+ to wound with pulse Rifles and burst cannons, and then the HI get their full saves.

 

It is an unapologetic distraction unit. They draw the fire, hold out as long as they can, and the rest of your army does it's thing unmolested. Everybody can't be stealthy, it just doesn't work. If you try and play Hide & Seek, your opponent decides what to focus on, and you react with what he does not remove. I say keep his attention where you want it, and let him realize his folly too late.

 

Y'all (a conjunction of "you all" for you non-Americans) look at units in a vacuum, and do not take the intangible benefits into account.

[Debauchery101]

See, my point WAS for the good of the army. 10, with no upgrades, and then the CP for Tactical Flexibility, with a Primaris Apothecary, CP for Hero of the Chapter, and Master of Ambush trait. Your opponent has to gamble on his shooting. He has to dedicate just enough to sweep 15 wounds of T5 and 3+ (remember to factor in cover and Chapter Tactics as applicable) and then do it again. How much shooting do you think he will have left for the rest of your army?

 

Tau will need to devote Marker Lights, which will really drive them bonkers. Otherwise they are 4+ to hit, and 4+ to wound with pulse Rifles and burst cannons, and then the HI get their full saves.

 

It is an unapologetic distraction unit. They draw the fire, hold out as long as they can, and the rest of your army does it's thing unmolested. Everybody can't be stealthy, it just doesn't work. If you try and play Hide & Seek, your opponent decides what to focus on, and you react with what he does not remove. I say keep his attention where you want it, and let him realize his folly too late.

 

Y'all (a conjunction of "you all" for you non-Americans) look at units in a vacuum, and do not take the intangible benefits into account.

well while theoretically this could pose as a tough nut to crack i dont think it will end up being a good option. I still don't know the points of those guys. Can the sgt take a melee weapon? 10 definitely will cost more than 2 units of Eradicators, who could easily pop in from reserves and melt most of the unit in 1 round. Also id like to know what an Intangible benefit is pertaining to 40k. Even your army painted has tangible benefits in the game

 

There are quite a few better options. Regular aggressors will still do better using master of ambush. Another great option is a Judicar. Tri fold path him to have MOA and swift and deadly. He can bring in a unit blade guards, assault intercessors or vanguard veterans

Edited September 29, 2020 by Debauchery101

[Jacques Corbin]

Aggressors (regular or irregular), Blade Guard, and Vanguard Veterans are not troops, and therefore no objective secured. Assault Intercessors, while troops, are not T5.

 

The Judicar option is not bad, but counts on you going first. You will not get an alpha strike opportunity every game. It's poor planning to count on everything going your way all the time.

 

Intangible benefits are those that are not obvious, and not able to be math hammered. The ability to make your opponent play your game, and not his. To focus his attention where you want it, and not where it should be if he wants to win.

[Alcyon]

So far I've found the Judiciar to be pretty weak in general but I've only been running him with Intercessors so there's that. He hasn't made it into combat once so far, they whittle down the squad and/or snipe him off because they're so scared of combat with him. I think it's a real drawback that he doesn't have any aura abilities beyond the Tempormortis but I will try running him with some Aggressors next game and see how it goes.

 

I think he's far stronger as a charge deterrent/counter charge unit than an offensive one. The Tempormortis doesn't do anything on the charge unless the enemy has some kind of fight-first ability of their own, and if you're charging with multiple units, after the first one fights the Tempormortis can be overridden by the Counter-Offensive stratagem. So he's much better on the defence where you can force the charging unit to fight after your defending units. However I'm not sure that ability is really better than an Apothecary's defensive buffs or a Captain/CM's offensive ones since your opponent can more easily play around him, and if you're using MoA you only really get to pick one.

 

Anyway, this thread isn't about Judiciars. Having played my first GT pack game I see the utility of the Heavy variant a lot more. Having a fairly cheap squad of T5 guys with long range weapons makes them the perfect backline objective holders. They don't have camo cloaks which are often useless since objectives can't be on terrain, so you don't waste points on those, and they have inherent T5 and 3w which combos well with the cover-without-cover bonuses of our CT. They're much more attractive than Devastators or other long-range units and can be buffed without a Captain using Bolter Fusillades, which might be a more defensible CT now that Master Artisans and Stealthy are being nerfed.

[Debauchery101]

Aggressors (regular or irregular), Blade Guard, and Vanguard Veterans are not troops, and therefore no objective secured. Assault Intercessors, while troops, are not T5.

 

The Judicar option is not bad, but counts on you going first. You will not get an alpha strike opportunity every game. It's poor planning to count on everything going your way all the time.

 

Intangible benefits are those that are not obvious, and not able to be math hammered. The ability to make your opponent play your game, and not his. To focus his attention where you want it, and not where it should be if he wants to win.

Well I feel strategic positioning, target saturation, alpha strike, counter charge tactics produce tangible results. Because your opponent as well as you are math hammering the threat potential of how you're deploying, moving and attacking. But ill concede that we just define those aspects differently.

 

My main reason for countering your opinion on making a push with the heavy intercessors at the start is that I dont think they will be as effective as a front line unit. They just don't seem to, as of right now...have any decent punching. Yes they're tough as nails but its not hard to wipe a unit like that. I think other chapters might be able to do it better with that unit. I think I'd end up playing into an opponents hand trying to take them out while they sit way back and screen their deployment zone. Give them some support like a jump pack chaplain or captain. Maybe a Tempest or 2. With stealthy and in cover..they will take a considerable amount of maneuvering and power to remove. While being able to hammer on light and medium targets with ease. The chaplain buffs or captain rerolls and the Tempests finishing off or softening targets with them. That's how I play with my stalker intercessors in my death watch and these hvy intercessors will be even better at it.

 

A big factor still is if they get sgt melee weapons in the codex and what their point cost is. Those 2 things will be a huge factor

 

As for the alpha strike judicar and a unit of blade guards. Its under 170 points. If I don't get 1st turn...well I can still move them to protect them or support something else. The reason why i like the judicar is because of harlequins and death guard. the Judicar can punch way above his weight. As well as the BGvets.

 

I run incursors as well as a phobos captain. If I get a first turn im going to redeploy via MOA and LOD as many things as possible bumrush something important with advancing and charging...with a bonus if i have Lias near me as well...

 

if i don't get 1st turn...well I will be deploying in a way to deny you of as much area as possible..then I fall back to cover and get ready to counter. This can also be used to help line up all your eliminators that your opponent had hidden from.

Edited September 30, 2020 by Debauchery101

[GreyCrow]

Saw the Codex in French, no Target Sighted stratagem, but all Intercessor Tactical Squads get access to the double shoot for 2CPs.

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

Saw the Codex in French, no Target Sighted stratagem, but all Intercessor Tactical Squads get access to the double shoot for 2CPs.

Seems pretty good with ABRs.  

[GreyCrow]

Yeah, that stratagem is really good on ABR !

 

Even with Stalkers, if the core of the list is based on Stalker Intercessors. I tend to run 4 full Intercessor squads at 2000 points (Ultramarines for my Primaris Chapter, Raven Guard is Old Marines for me !

[Alcyon]

That stratagem allows ALL squads to shoot twice or just one squad? Because Stalkers are still 1 shot each as far as I know, and 10 shots twice is only 20...