Core keyword for marines

[Khornestar]

Moved thread as so far it’s speculation and nothing forthcoming from GW.

[emperorpants]

So does anyone have the leaks for litanies and psychic powers by chance?

[WrathOfTheLion]

There's an article up on the core keyword on warhammer community now.

 

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/09/16/core-units-and-characters/

 

Should this thread be moved back to N&R since they are forthcoming about it now?

 

To add a summary:

Units, usually infantry, will gain the core keyword. This will include terminators, intercessors, bikes, etc., not include vehicles or characters, and most auras will be scoped to only affect core units. Characters won't buff each other with auras, as they are not core.

 

I assume there will be some outlier auras. I would assume the Talonmaster or Sammael for instance would still affect non-core landspeeders, but we'd have to see with the DA supplement.

Edited September 16, 2020 by WrathOfTheLion

[Ezekyle_Abaddon]

I like the changes that make it so aura abilities only affect infantry because that makes sense and is fluffy. What I don't like is characters not being affected by their own/other auras. I find that to be a tad bit stupid. I get why they're trying to do but like in warfare you have a command structure and the person at the top makes the decisions but they also take suggestions and advice from people under them.  

[SirJyo]

I like the changes, still feels like a ploy to sell the new techmarines however.

[Mandragola]

I like the changes that make it so aura abilities only affect infantry because that makes sense and is fluffy. What I don't like is characters not being affected by their own/other auras. I find that to be a tad bit stupid. I get why they're trying to do but like in warfare you have a command structure and the person at the top makes the decisions but they also take suggestions and advice from people under them.  

I broadly agree with this. However, it has the effect of slightly reducing the power of everyone's characters, and that's mainly a good thing. Stuff like Smash Captains will be less awesome.

 

It does probably throw up some slightly odd issues, more in other armies than with Marines. For example a Custodes captain is now going to be a lot less accurate than everyone around him and an Ork Warboss might not be affected by his own advance and charge aura.

 

For marines this could translate to things like Khan not benefitting from his own +1 to wound aura, or Pedro from +1 attack. Not the end of the world but, again, it would be strange for Characters to be worse than the normal guys nearby.

[TheNewman]

^^^ Overall I think it's a good change, but you make a valid point. There are some warlord traits like the Raven Guard "units within 6 inches may advance after charging" aura that would be very strange to have apply to units near the Captain but not to the Captain himself.

[War Angel]

They never said it was all abilities. Custodies ability might not target core units.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Exactly. Just because this mechanic has been introduced doesn't mean it's going to be used in every single ability. Some will probably remain "buff all units within 6 inches", others will only affect Core stuff.

[War Angel]

Exactly. Just because this mechanic has been introduced doesn't mean it's going to be used in every single ability. Some will probably remain "buff all units within 6 inches", others will only affect Core stuff.

Others will remain whatever they are (the demonic buffs for chaos machine things. I should pay more attention to what my opponents do)

[Umbros]

Having a greater ability to measure what auras will affect is only a good thing. It makes it easier to balance and cost the effects as well as allowing for greater variety in the design of the characters. All round a good change*

 

 

*execution to be seen

Edited September 17, 2020 by Umbros

[Riddlesworth]

Opens up design space so you can be rewarded for selecting in theme. Makes use of the existing keyword system better.

 

All for it*.

 

*Execution to be seen

[Dracos]

My hope is they make it very clear why a unit is or isn't Core. As long as there is a consistency to it then I can't overly complain too much. Considering they've said Terminators are Core I have hope (theres that word again) the same applies to Gravis

[WrathOfTheLion]

I would think it applies to gravis.

In my mind, I see it as 'who should the captain be leading?'

 

A captain would lead his gravis troops, his tactical marines, hellblasters, assault marines and inceptors, but not necessarily his tanks/armor or other characters. Perhaps would lead their dreadnoughts.

The captain of a 1st company would lead terminators, perhaps the captain of another, not familiar with the codex setup.

 

Sammael of the Dark Angels Ravenwing however has the Ravenwing keyword to work with there, so perhaps wouldn't interact with core, as you wouldn't give core to landspeeders for DA to have them affected by a normal Master. So I would think those sub-factions of a chapter, notably the Death Company, Ravenwing and Deathwing, would scope separately based on those in some manner outside of the 'core' word.

 

Don't really think in a discrete way as of yet until I get more information, but I do think there's some intuitive reasoning that can be done on what ends up going where.

 

In a way, I think that with this and the character targeting rules, GW is attempting to move 9E more towards some intermediate of the 7E and prior attaching characters to units and the 8E free for all there. So in the end with 9E, we'll be somewhere between 8E and how it was before, but not quite either one.

Edited September 25, 2020 by WrathOfTheLion

[War Angel]

I would think it applies to gravis.

In my mind, I see it as 'who should the captain be leading?'

 

A captain would lead his gravis troops, his tactical marines, hellblasters, assault marines and inceptors, but not necessarily his tanks/armor or other characters.

The captain of a 1st company would lead terminators, perhaps the captain of another, not familiar with the codex setup.

 

Sammael of the Dark Angels Ravenwing however has the Ravenwing keyword to work with there, so perhaps wouldn't interact with core, as you wouldn't give core to landspeeders for DA to have them affected by a normal Master. So I would think those sub-factions of a chapter, notably the Death Company, Ravenwing and Deathwing, would scope separately based on those in some manner outside of the 'core' word.

Yeah, I think they plan to use it as a way of building the image of the battle. 3rd edition codex cover art, the crimson fist in that hill fighting on all sides. There’s a captain, and then the h it’s around him fighting to the last. The units that GW thinks would be around the captain (gaining the benifits of his rerolls) are core. They said vehicles also, and I think that might be the dreadnaught, because it’s also “walking” up the table with them.

 

But, what’s not core? We already know executioners, so if we assume all tanks then we can be pleasantly surprised when it turns out one or two of them are core. But for infantry? Maybe it’s the back line guys. Devastator squads, eliminator squads, maybe suppressors because of how they can drop in by themselves with a long range cannon? Core units will look different across all factions, maybe a core marine infantry unit is one that can be taken in 5-10 man squads? Another option could be to use our company structure as a guideline. Anyone who’s in squad 1-10. Not really sure who that excludes aside from characters, except maybe the command squad. Unless the reserve companies are not core units. (Would mean scouts aren’t core, which could make sense, inspired as they might be, they don’t have the experience to preform any better than they already do.)

 

We will know soon though. Very soon.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I think is possible heavy support in general won’t be core.

[Rik Lightstar]

I think the core units will be most of the standard squads plus bikes and non-forgeworld dreadnoughts. It's probably easier to say what I think would be excluded:

 

-All Characters

-All "Tanks"

-All "Flyers"

-All "Transports"

-All the Speeder Variants

-Death Company

-Servitors

-Fenrisian Wolves

-Lone Wolves if they're still a thing

 

There's nothing else jumping to mind.

 

Rik

[Lord_Caerolion]

I wouldn't be too surprised if the "support" characters like the Ancients and Apothecaries get Core as well, given they're not technically leaders.

[Dr. Clock]

I think is possible heavy support in general won’t be core.

This would be somewhat odd given that the 'core' of a Marine chapter is a battle company, which specifically includes both 'fast attack' and 'heavy support' squads. Thus, while it's understandable that a captain on foot can't improve the functioning of a tank crew, for instance, a unit of hellblasters is pretty much just as 'core' to the general organization of Marines than is a unit of Intercessors, or indeed Heavy Intercessors.

 

I also would not be surprised if there are some mechanics that can make some things 'core' that otherwise would not be... or just some auras that affect 'non-core' units of different kinds. This would be a 'lite' version of the older idea of 'moving some things to Troops' based on who you've put in the HQ slots... Techmarines would be an obvious pick for buffing vehicles, for instance, but I could also foresee a world in which including a Phobos Lieutenant simply 'adds Core Keyword' to Phobos units in general, or like a Terminator Captain making all Terminators in the list core as well.

 

Cheers,

 

The Good Doctor.

[MegaVolt87]

I wouldn't be too surprised if the "support" characters like the Ancients and Apothecaries get Core as well, given they're not technically leaders.

If support characters are not core, they can be stronger on an individual level because there will be no possibility for wonky interactions with aura abilities, so easily balanced for non HQ characters.

[crazyterran]

I can see anything that makes/can make up a standard battle company being Core sans characters, plus a few ‘iconic’ extras ie, scouts and Veterans, since we know Termies are getting it

 

So, I could see things like Eliminators not getting Core, while maybe the old boxes and Redemptor Dreads will. Anything with a BS2+ might not get it either, though there isn’t much with that in the main book.

 

I don’t think lacking Core would make me change from a Leviathan to a Redemptor barring some heavy Leviathan nerfs, even lacking core.

[MegaVolt87]

I can see anything that makes/can make up a standard battle company being Core sans characters, plus a few ‘iconic’ extras ie, scouts and Veterans, since we know Termies are getting it

So, I could see things like Eliminators not getting Core, while maybe the old boxes and Redemptor Dreads will. Anything with a BS2+ might not get it either, though there isn’t much with that in the main book.

I don’t think lacking Core would make me change from a Leviathan to a Redemptor barring some heavy Leviathan nerfs, even lacking core.

Levi not being core immediately shuts down any potential busted interactions that can happen with aura abilities. FW stuff further has limited interactions with quite a few strategems also, far easier to balance and less likely not to tip the needle to busted on the power scales making it an auto include or best in slot.

[crazyterran]

Yeah I don’t think any of the FW dreads will be getting Core, or if they do, they nerf the BS to 3+ to match the new codex Contemptor. I also think the new book will be the death of the Chaplain Dread.

 

It will be a little sad for my Contemptors but on the other hand they look awesome, so...

[MegaVolt87]

I would rather see less core and strategem interaction for FW stuff in 9th ed and a return to a more self contained unit sheet that has what each unit needs independently. Old tech is superior in 40k, that design philosophy should reflect that in comparison to codex SM/CSM etc units which should have more core/aura + strategem interaction and more simplified unit entries in comparison. It would be a good balance. 

[Lord_Caerolion]

Eh, if things are Stratagems then keep them Stratagems for FW stuff, there's no point making smoke grenades work completely differently for FW Predator variants than GW Predators, for example. If it's a Stratagem that affects a particular unit type, then sure, don't necessarily have that carry over to FW stuff, but there's no reason to reinvent the wheel. The smoke launchers on a Predator Infernus work the same as a Predator Annihilator.