Top non-Primarch Duellist discussion

[Indefragable]

Well, maybe the FW team considered that Corswain's legendary ability for swordfighting (hence his WS7) already takes into consideration the DA predisposition for it? It's a bit like the LA rules not applying to Primarchs, their rules are already an embodiment of the Legion spirit.

 

Who else has WS7 other than some Primarchs? I would argue that at the level were WS7 fighters duel each other, one could expect the fight to be as even as possible (well, there's Sigismund, but I think we have discussed about him enough and it's a bit offtopic, and then again they should never be fighting each other because, you know, they are both loyalists ).

 

Breaking off this discussion into its own thread since it kept pulling us all back in a different one.

 

 

Tier 0:

• Sigismund

 

Tier 1:

• Sevatar 2.0
• Nemean Reaver
• Abaddon
• Raldoron
• Corswain

 

Tier 2

• Eidolon
• Qin Xa
• Khârn
• Salamanders Praetor with Mantle of Drake, Cataphractii, Drakescale Shield (EW and 3++), and Thunder Hammer

 

Brief Breakdown as to what makes each so good:

Hidden Content

 

Tier 0:

• Sigismund: he has it all. Primarch-class WS7, re-roll 1's To Hit in melee from Legion rules, Instant Death on S+2 AP2 sword, forces enemies to re-roll successful invuln saves, and the incredibly useful Eternal Warrior

 

Tier 1:

• Sevatar 2.0: now with 2+/4++ saves and AP2-at-Initiative-6, Instant Death, and a chance to get Precognition and WS7. Though it's harder to compare for 1:1 purposes Legion rule Talent For Murder is huge if it can apply to a combat he is in
• Corswain: WS7, Instant Death AP2-at-I5 Sword, and 3++ save. What a combo. 
• Nemean Reaver: ok stats but is -1 To Hit to enemies in combat and has Eternal Warrior. That combo alone puts him near the top
• Abaddon: WS7.....that's about all he's got going for him at the moment. 
• Raldoron: WS7, S+1 or S+2 on charge AP2 at I5-possibly-I6-with-DoR-RoW Murderous Strike, Shred, Master-Crafted sword. Also hugely benefits from Legion rule Encarmine Fury

 

Tier 2:

• Eidolon: he can swing a Thunder Hammer at I7 (!!!) on the charge. That right there gives him a chance to one-shot anyone without EW before they even have time to blink
• Khârn: WS8(!) in a Challenge, re-rolling 1's To Wound. S+1 AP2 if taking Angron's axe, and can get up to 9A if conditions met (Rage, Rampage)
• Qin Xa: I6 S+2 AP2 Master Crafted on the charge, or can go S8 AP2 Unwieldy on the charge (with Furious Charge for both). Counter-Attack, so is 6A in first turn whether charging or charged. 2+/4++ with Iron Halo in Tartaros. 
• Salamanders Praetor: a generic character that can hold his own against all of the above...how he does this is the ability to get Eternal Warrior and 3++ from wargear, and also the ability to get a Master-Crafted Thunder Hammer. What this means is that unless his opponent gets lucky rolls, he is most likely to survive to I1 to swing his hammer, thus Instant Death-ing (doubling out) most opponents on this list or dropping to I1 (Concussive) anyone he somehow can't kill, thus improving his chances even more for the second round. 

 

 

Feel free to comment on others to add, where to add them, and why. 

 

Italicized names are ones that are debatable as to where they rank, or they "should" be there but perhaps their crunch does not quite make it work (see point 2 below).

 

Discussion points:

1. Accuracy/friendly debate about the above
2. How to fix characters who *should* be up here or are here but based on the evolution no longer warrant it <cough> Abaddon <cough> even though we all know they rightfully should be
3. Whether or not the DA Legion rule "Mastery of the Blade" applies to Corswain
4. Anything else that applies 

Edited September 18, 2020 by Indefragable

[WrathOfTheLion]

I have a feeling they put the asterisk on datasheets for mastery of the blade that they weren't giving a model to, as sort of a designer's note.

I mean the wording of Mastery of the Blade also gives a list of weapons it applies to, but then it says "Counts as a sword for the purposes of..." on Marduk Sedras, etc., but the rule as written says nothing explicitly about sword weaponry, except restricting paragon blades. There is no 'sword' in that list, so what does it count as? A literal interpretation would mean that those weapons don't benefit from mastery of the blade, as 'a Sword' is not in the exhaustive list in the rules of Mastery of the Blade. So the obvious intention is any weapon that is a sword benefits, and thus Corswain and Lion El'Jonson should benefit.

[Indefragable]

I have a feeling they put the asterisk on datasheets for mastery of the blade that they weren't giving a model to, as sort of a designer's note.

 

I mean the wording of Mastery of the Blade also gives a list of weapons it applies to, but then it says "Counts as a sword for the purposes of..." on Marduk Sedras, etc., but the rule as written says nothing explicitly about sword weaponry, except restricting paragon blades. There is no 'sword' in that list, so what does it count as? A literal interpretation would mean that those weapons don't benefit from mastery of the blade, as 'a Sword' is not in the exhaustive list in the rules of Mastery of the Blade. So the obvious intention is any weapon that is a sword benefits, and thus Corswain and Lion El'Jonson should benefit.

 

It is odd. The question is whether they provide an extensive list for what does count in order to restrict to just those, or to provide examples of types of weapons that count. If the formal than its deliberate and Corswain alas does not get it. If the latter, then he absolutely should. 

[WrathOfTheLion]

I would assume that it's examples.

Otherwise, those addendums on the datasheet do not cause those weapons to be categorized on that list, because it doesn't tell them to count as <X> in that exhaustive list. So those addendums are worthless unless the list is examples.

 

An example would be saying that the destroyer of worlds counts as a 'Terranic Greatsword' for the purposes of Mastery of the Blade. But it does not say that, it just says generally 'a sword'.

 

So if we take it literally, Destroyer of Worlds counts as 'a sword'. 'A sword' is not on the exhaustive list, thus Marduk Sedras and his sword do not benefit, as they do not count as an item on that list.

Edited September 17, 2020 by WrathOfTheLion

[Aztek]

Discussion on Corswain is a little silly in my opinion. Does "THE BLADE" a master crafted Terranic Greatsword by it's own description, benefit from "MASTERY OF THE BLADE", which includes Terranic Greatswords in it's description.

 

It's just like... it's very clearly in the spirit of the rules that it counts. Not even debatable imo. Is it debatable that they phrased it in such a way that it can be argued against? Apparently. People are being needlessly pedantic though in my opinion.

 

 

 

"

• Sevatar 2.0: now with 2+/4++ saves and AP2-at-Initiative-6, Instant Death, and a chance to get Precognition and WS7. Though it's harder to compare for 1:1 purposes Legion rule Talent For Murder is huge if it can apply to a combat he is in"

 

 

He is I7 for most intents and purposes much like his ID. Night Whisper has Duelist's Edge.

Edited September 17, 2020 by Aztek

[b1soul]

I'd add Qin Xa somewhere [maybe?]

[Nomadic Thunder]

seconded for qin xa, his double dao blades and furious charge with I6 is pretty solid

[WrathOfTheLion]

Definitely agree that it's in the spirit for it to count for Corswain. Just noting that extrapolating Mastery of the Blade in an extremely literal sense leads to contradictions and absurdities with the other datasheets, so one must reason that it was intended not to be taken too literally.

Edited September 17, 2020 by WrathOfTheLion

[Aeternus]

Aye Qin Xa should be up there as well, can't really think of anyone else who's missing off the list who actually has rules. Maybe Sedras as well?

 

Also as a heads up since it doesn't reflect it, Sev is WS7 base, don't know if it was a typo and you meant I7 tho (As aztek notes, in duels, bumping up to a faster than most primarchs I8 during night...)

[WGXH]

Re Corswain; wether or not it is an oversight, the LA:DA rule even has the sword in it; Mastery of THE BLADE.

 

Another note in his favour to be included in tier 2 is that he has one reroll for being master crafted, and another in a duel for being Scion of the Deathwing.

 

This would make him very reliable (even moreso if hitting on 3's) against anybody else on this list- though Sevetar (through striking first) and Sigismind (through trading hits, but having Eternal Warrior) both have his number.

[Deadass]

I'm not entirely sure about how I'd improve/fix Abaddon. Maybe it'd be a good idea to do something with his power fist:

• Option 1: give him the ability to use it at Initiative. Maybe it's a uniqe weapon, or perhaps he's just able to swing it faster because he's such a big dude. It'd give him a good fighting chance against paragon/diving blade-toting praetors and champions. He might still fluff it against some of the other duellist characters thanks to their higher Initiative. He'll also be able to use it if he activates Merciless Fighters.
• Option 2: replace it with one of those new Escaton Power Claws - at least profile-wise. The lore states it can only be found in Night Lords- and Sons of Horus armories in significant numbers, and his fist has pointed digits already. Since it's not a specialist weapon, he'd gain another attack if he's equipped with his power sword as well as Shred.

Alternatively, give him Eternal Warrior. Make him out-live everyone else. I know there's a vocal part of the community saying giving EW to anything but the Primarchs was a mistake, but Abaddon is a tenacious fellow. Feats like getting skewered by a Black Sword have made that clear.

[Corswain]

I definitely think Abaddon should have EW - he's outlived quite a few Primarchs so fluff wise we're good.

[StrangerOrders]

Well in terms of fluff, I would note four key discrepancies with Abbadon.

 

1. Per the Black Legion books and referenced in a few other places, he is actually not altogether that fast for an Astartes, he does not really excel at the whole 'moving in blurs' sort of speed we see with alot of the characters here. What he does have is an exceptional sense of timing and a good eye for killing blows. So I would say he should actually have substandard (for a Praetor) Initiative but DEFINITELY should have Instant Death. Heck, Khayon even notices that Sigismund would have creamed him if the guy wasnt already aged to death while Abbadon was in relatively good trim.
2. The second thing is his WS. Abby was always noted to be a great warrior but a middling duelist on his best day. He does not do great in any sort of formalized combat and really is at his best when there is no rules and he more or less just runs into you in the middle of a melee. ESPECIALLY when he can work with and around others in the middle of chaos (heh).
   •  So... This will sound weird but he should honestly be WS7 and gain WS8 outside of a duel, or maybe have him be a normal WS6 in a duel as a debuff and have him be WS7 normally?
3. Abbadon is supposed to be an absolute CHONKER, like people actually bought his whole 'Horus Clone' bs on the premise of his sheer THICC-ness. And when you look at all of the other rules in the HH for abnormally big or strong characters its really weird that he is a standard S4/T4. This guy is supposed to struggle to fit into terminator armor after all. This should arguably also give him Eternal Warrior, since he is also noted to be stubborn enough to keep going after recieving wounds that should have killed him. We can even literally see him survive a blow from Sigis INSTANT DEATH sword or doom.
4. The last one is really that he doesnt do that much to buff, which is weird given that from what we are told (shown is debatable) he was a really charismatic commander, its even noted that he wasnt the best strategist but made up for it by his sheer ability to muster men. 

I'm no rule mastermind but it does really seem that Abbadon is out of synch in both good and bad ways from how he has traditionally been shown. More towards the negative than positive though.

Edited September 17, 2020 by StrangerOrders

[Inquisitor Kravin]

Alexis Polux is a surprise contender. In practice his 3++ save and ability to strike at S10 at I5 with his Powerfist has seen him beat a couple of the characters listed above in my experience. Edited September 17, 2020 by Inquisitor Kravin

[Deadass]

Well in terms of fluff, I would note four key discrepancies with Abbadon.

 

1. Per the Black Legion books and referenced in a few other places, he is actually not altogether that fast for an Astartes, he does not really excel at the whole 'moving in blurs' sort of speed we see with alot of the characters here. What he does have is an exceptional sense of timing and a good eye for killing blows. So I would say he should actually have substandard (for a Praetor) Initiative but DEFINITELY should have Instant Death. Heck, Khayon even notices that Sigismund would have creamed him if the guy wasnt already aged to death while Abbadon was in relatively good trim.
2. The second thing is his WS. Abby was always noted to be a great warrior but a middling duelist on his best day. He does not do great in any sort of formalized combat and really is at his best when there is no rules and he more or less just runs into you in the middle of a melee. ESPECIALLY when he can work with and around others in the middle of chaos (heh).
   •  So... This will sound weird but he should honestly be WS7 and gain WS8 outside of a duel, or maybe have him be a normal WS6 in a duel as a debuff and have him be WS7 normally?
3. Abbadon is supposed to be an absolute CHONKER, like people actually bought his whole 'Horus Clone' bs on the premise of his sheer THICC-ness. And when you look at all of the other rules in the HH for abnormally big or strong characters its really weird that he is a standard S4/T4. This guy is supposed to struggle to fit into terminator armor after all. This should arguably also give him Eternal Warrior, since he is also noted to be stubborn enough to keep going after recieving wounds that should have killed him. We can even literally see him survive a blow from Sigis INSTANT DEATH sword or doom.
4. The last one is really that he doesnt do that much to buff, which is weird given that from what we are told (shown is debatable) he was a really charismatic commander, its even noted that he wasnt the best strategist but made up for it by his sheer ability to muster men. 

I'm no rule mastermind but it does really seem that Abbadon is out of sink in both good and bad ways from how he has traditionally been shown. More towards the negative than positive though.

 

Conferring Fearless and his Ld of 10 are pretty good buffs, tbh. I also think he's fine when it comes to WS... getting worse inside of a challenge just seems weird, even in an in-universe context.

 

Having given the idea of fixing Abaddon some more thought, I firmly believe that letting him attack at initiative 5 with his power fist is the best way to fix him up - even from a fluff perspective! If you recall the battle between 'Zeke and Siggy in Black Legion, Khayon states that they were evenly matched because of the latter's age, but his precise words were "Age had slowed Sigismund, but all it had done was slow him to a level with the rest of us."

Couple that with the fight between Abaddon and Loken from Galaxy in Flames, where Garviel notes that the terminator-armored Abaddon was able to match Loken's speed in power armor, and you've got a pretty compelling argument for I5.

 

As I said before, EW on marines is sometimes frowned upon. I'd argue that it's appropriate for Abaddon too, but he'd probably need a points adjustment if he got it in addition to an at-initiative power fist.

[StrangerOrders]

 

Well in terms of fluff, I would note four key discrepancies with Abbadon.

 

1. Per the Black Legion books and referenced in a few other places, he is actually not altogether that fast for an Astartes, he does not really excel at the whole 'moving in blurs' sort of speed we see with alot of the characters here. What he does have is an exceptional sense of timing and a good eye for killing blows. So I would say he should actually have substandard (for a Praetor) Initiative but DEFINITELY should have Instant Death. Heck, Khayon even notices that Sigismund would have creamed him if the guy wasnt already aged to death while Abbadon was in relatively good trim.
2. The second thing is his WS. Abby was always noted to be a great warrior but a middling duelist on his best day. He does not do great in any sort of formalized combat and really is at his best when there is no rules and he more or less just runs into you in the middle of a melee. ESPECIALLY when he can work with and around others in the middle of chaos (heh).
   •  So... This will sound weird but he should honestly be WS7 and gain WS8 outside of a duel, or maybe have him be a normal WS6 in a duel as a debuff and have him be WS7 normally?
3. Abbadon is supposed to be an absolute CHONKER, like people actually bought his whole 'Horus Clone' bs on the premise of his sheer THICC-ness. And when you look at all of the other rules in the HH for abnormally big or strong characters its really weird that he is a standard S4/T4. This guy is supposed to struggle to fit into terminator armor after all. This should arguably also give him Eternal Warrior, since he is also noted to be stubborn enough to keep going after recieving wounds that should have killed him. We can even literally see him survive a blow from Sigis INSTANT DEATH sword or doom.
4. The last one is really that he doesnt do that much to buff, which is weird given that from what we are told (shown is debatable) he was a really charismatic commander, its even noted that he wasnt the best strategist but made up for it by his sheer ability to muster men. 

I'm no rule mastermind but it does really seem that Abbadon is out of sink in both good and bad ways from how he has traditionally been shown. More towards the negative than positive though.

 

Conferring Fearless and his Ld of 10 are pretty good buffs, tbh. I also think he's fine when it comes to WS... getting worse inside of a challenge just seems weird, even in an in-universe context.

 

Having given the idea of fixing Abaddon some more thought, I firmly believe that letting him attack at initiative 5 with his power fist is the best way to fix him up - even from a fluff perspective! If you recall the battle between 'Zeke and Siggy in Black Legion, Khayon states that they were evenly matched because of the latter's age, but his precise words were "Age had slowed Sigismund, but all it had done was slow him to a level with the rest of us."

Couple that with the fight between Abaddon and Loken from Galaxy in Flames, where Garviel notes that the terminator-armored Abaddon was able to match Loken's speed in power armor, and you've got a pretty compelling argument for I5.

 

As I said before, EW on marines is sometimes frowned upon. I'd argue that it's appropriate for Abaddon too, but he'd probably need a points adjustment if he got it in addition to an at-initiative power fist.

 

I was thinking more about Khayon's recollections from his practice duels with Abby, when he compares him to the other Legion fighters. He notes that Abby is sort of a bad duelist and its kind of echoed in what we have seen from him in the new Siege books where he usually wins by virtue of exploiting chaotic circumstances, opportunism and strength to get around faster and more skilled opponents.

 

I'm against focusing too much on his I Score as a result, since it feels actively counter to how he fights, it would actually be kind of novel to give him a rule that actually took advantage of going second actually. Along with EW to help him get there in the first place. I like novel rules tbh and it would be a nice departure from the Initiative arms-race. He should also definitely have ID by default, since thats a big part of his whole way of fighting, he isnt fast but he makes his strikes count and has a good eye for weak spots.

 

Granted, Khayon also claims that he himself is a subpar swordsman while conveniently forgetting to mention that he is an ex-Not!Jedi Khenetai, so it might either be bs or he just has a really warped idea of what speed is. 

 

Weirdly, I'd actually think he should be S or T 5 because, again, we have seen so much damned noise about his strength and durability and that does seem to be the go-to for reflecting that in alot of characters rules-wise. Its weird to have the Primarch-sized muscle-man be as physically imposing as a standard marine when we have so many exceptions running around.

Edited September 17, 2020 by StrangerOrders

[Billy the Squid]

I'm not entirely sure about how I'd improve/fix Abaddon. Maybe it'd be a good idea to do something with his power fist:

• Option 1: give him the ability to use it at Initiative. Maybe it's a uniqe weapon, or perhaps he's just able to swing it faster because he's such a big dude. It'd give him a good fighting chance against paragon/diving blade-toting praetors and champions. He might still fluff it against some of the other duellist characters thanks to their higher Initiative. He'll also be able to use it if he activates Merciless Fighters.
• Option 2: replace it with one of those new Escaton Power Claws - at least profile-wise. The lore states it can only be found in Night Lords- and Sons of Horus armories in significant numbers, and his fist has pointed digits already. Since it's not a specialist weapon, he'd gain another attack if he's equipped with his power sword as well as Shred.

Alternatively, give him Eternal Warrior. Make him out-live everyone else. I know there's a vocal part of the community saying giving EW to anything but the Primarchs was a mistake, but Abaddon is a tenacious fellow. Feats like getting skewered by a Black Sword have made that clear.

 

I'd be a bit iffy bumping up his initiative, looking at him as an archetype, he's not a duellist; not like Sigismund or Raldaron, nor a dirty fighter like Sevatar, all who arguably have move with speed, precision and a certain amount of finesse in their duelling style (or in Sev's case, head butt your opponent in the face)

 

As others have said he's a hulking brute that needs specialised Terminator armour because he's so big, he feels more like a brawler to me, the kind of warrior that'll take what you throw at him, wear you down then beat you to death with your arm once you've made a mistake. 

 

I think EW is probably necessary for him, given who he is and it gives him some protection against ID weapons which are flying about.

 

Escaton Power Claw would be a good upgrade, as you said, give him a +1 attack and shred without resorting just to buffing his stat line, I'd also allow for a Master Crafter Power Sword (why the Master of the Justaerin doesn't have one I'm not entirely sure)

 

The only other thing that popped into my head was to account for his physique as some hulking brute, possibly +1 strength through his modified Justaerin Warplate (I'm always iffy about just straight up buffing stats) while it wouldn't do anything for his Power Fist/ Escaton Claw attacks in duels which are already wounding on a 2+ in most cases it would give him an edge when it comes to cutting through the chaff ie: "normal" Astartes, without it skewing the balance in duels, where you really want to bring your Power Fist/ Escaton Claw attacks to bear for ID rather than relying on 3+ to would non ID attacks from a power sword, which will likely bounce off most character's armour anyway. 

 

I think his points would have to be bumped up slightly, maybe make the Escaton Power Claw an upgrade to account for an increase in points rather than replacing it out right. 

 

Edit:

Also a buff in strength would give him an edge when it comes to Mechanicum constructs, Dreadnoughts etc. which are a danger to regular Astartes, dangerous to even power fist armed Terminators, it'd raise him above the "regular" Justaerin by virtue of the fact, he's hitting with S10, even without 2D6 armour pen. from a Chainfist, the kind of warrior to lead the Terminator elite and brutally bludgeon their way through any opposition without a hint of finesse. 

Edited September 17, 2020 by Billy the Squid

[Aeternus]

Alright so if we're categorising the issues with Abaddon being a mix of lacking EW, not being as good a duellist as the others but being fairly capable against anyone else, and lack of ap2 ID outside of I1 maybe something like this?

 

Mind you I have no idea how this would be costed...

 

 

Firstly give that boi EW, he's gonna be knocking around for a while after all. Next drop the WS to 6, rather than 7. He'll still be as good in most duels as a praetor and still hitting the top tier on 4s, but now they can strike back a bit easier representing his slightly lower combat level.

 

The counterpart to this lower WS would br a new rule representing his combat style: 'Brutal disdain - Abaddon's attacks gain instant death against enemies with an equal or lower WS'. So this means he's still a fair match for basic level praetors, will chew through anyone lower than him, and if you get an opportune moment and the WS7 opponent gets debuffed then you can represent him going for the weak spot/opening.

 

Since his attacks now get ID (sometimes) I'd switch out the wargear for either the MC power sword (think it just comes like a normal power sword right now) or an Escaton-Alpha power claw, a testbed version of the new power claw that, as noted above, was distributed to the sons of Horus and night lords: slightly weaker than the normal power claw, but not as slow. In game terms a S+2, ap(2?) Shred fist with reaping blow (-1I). Then you've still got the choice between sword (faster attacks, hitting more) and claw (slower but hit harder) even though I'd still expect most people to go for the claw since his new EW would let him tank a few hits. The bonus attack from reaping blow would still support the general shining in a combat with a unit rather than duel aspect, and would let him use his LA rule, suffice to say the claw would be a points upgrade over base coming with sword. Maybe dock him an attack base as well otherwise he's gonna be ending up near Khârn level of sheer attacks with the LA and reaping, so make him 3A (could do 4 with sword I suppose but too many rules are too many).

 

I understand the idea behind the slightly stronger/durable angle, but I feel the durability can be represented by EW...maybe a T5 or S5 but then he'll really be running up the points costs. Any suggestions are welcome, this is just a few ideas sorta coalesced together :)

Edited September 17, 2020 by Aeternus

[Elzender]

Well, if I had to choose between S5 or T5 for Abbadon, I would go for the latter, as his powerfist already gives him a respectable strength (and ID on T4 enemies, so most other marine HQ/characters). The T5 would also make him immune to ID attacks from power fists, so he would not be easily splatted by generic HQs.

 

As for the whole EW issue, I was wondering about a new, slightly different rule, something like "Marked by fate" or something like that. Basically, characters with this rule survive ID attacks with 1 wound left instead of dying outright (with a clause that it always inflicts at least 1 wound, so ID attacks can still kill them), giving them a chance against attacks that would normally kill them in a single blow. This might help balance the disparity between non-EW character duels, where ID weapons tend to splat one of the contenders in a single round, and EW fights where they tend to get drawn out (primarchs come to mind, but their IWND rolls and all extra rules probably have a significant impact). The rule would still make 1-round duels possible, as getting 2 ID wounds through would still kill them, but it would make fights between big name characters a bit more interesting.

Edited September 17, 2020 by Elzender

[Deadass]

Alright so if we're categorising the issues with Abaddon being a mix of lacking EW, not being as good a duellist as the others but being fairly capable against anyone else, and lack of ap2 ID outside of I1 maybe something like this?

 

Mind you I have no idea how this would be costed...

 

 

Firstly give that boi EW, he's gonna be knocking around for a while after all. Next drop the WS to 6, rather than 7. He'll still be as good in most duels as a praetor and still hitting the top tier on 4s, but now they can strike back a bit easier representing his slightly lower combat level.

 

The counterpart to this lower WS would br a new rule representing his combat style: 'Brutal disdain - Abaddon's attacks gain instant death against enemies with an equal or lower WS'. So this means he's still a fair match for basic level praetors, will chew through anyone lower than him, and if you get an opportune moment and the WS7 opponent gets debuffed then you can represent him going for the weak spot/opening.

 

Since his attacks now get ID (sometimes) I'd switch out the wargear for either the MC power sword (think it just comes like a normal power sword right now) or an Escaton-Alpha power claw, a testbed version of the new power claw that, as noted above, was distributed to the sons of Horus and night lords: slightly weaker than the normal power claw, but not as slow. In game terms a S+2, ap(2?) Shred fist with reaping blow (-1I). Then you've still got the choice between sword (faster attacks, hitting more) and claw (slower but hit harder) even though I'd still expect most people to go for the claw since his new EW would let him tank a few hits. The bonus attack from reaping blow would still support the general shining in a combat with a unit rather than duel aspect, and would let him use his LA rule, suffice to say the claw would be a points upgrade over base coming with sword. Maybe dock him an attack base as well otherwise he's gonna be ending up near Khârn level of sheer attacks with the LA and reaping, so make him 3A (could do 4 with sword I suppose but too many rules are too many).

 

I understand the idea behind the slightly stronger/durable angle, but I feel the durability can be represented by EW...maybe a T5 or S5 but then he'll really be running up the points costs. Any suggestions are welcome, this is just a few ideas sorta coalesced together

 

Oooh, I like that. I was thinking of suggesting to give him Counter-Attack to represent that he's more of a reactionary fighter, but your idea is much cooler! Really fluffy. Pointswise, he'd probably need to be adjusted upwards, but it'd be worth it. If we can refine this idea further in this thread, I might cobble together an unofficial character sheet.

[Billy the Squid]

I'd add Qin Xa to this list, definitely Tier 1.5, not quite Tier 1 as a duellist IMO, but he does bring a lot of secondary benefits as a commander, but we'll leave those to one side. 

 

Terminator armour with 2+/4++ save, both counter attack and furious charge veteran skills for defence and attack; Twin Daos gives him 5 AP2 attacks with at WS6 & I6 as a base, with 2 separate forms which he can chose from in each assault phase (+1S, Precision strike/ +3S, Unwieldly) both master crafted power weapons.

 

I'd say he's more reliable than Eidolon and Khârn, both rely more on their charges/ CC variables to circumvent unwieldly/ ramp up the number of attacks they can dish out. 

[Marshal Loss]

I was thinking more about Khayon's recollections from his practice duels with Abby, when he compares him to the other Legion fighters. He notes that Abby is sort of a bad duelist and its kind of echoed in what we have seen from him in the new Siege books where he usually wins by virtue of exploiting chaotic circumstances, opportunism and strength to get around faster and more skilled opponents.

 

You are misremembering. Khayon never says that Abaddon is a bad duelist; rather that when outside of battle he lacks the ferocious energy that makes him such a force when at war:

 

 

Outside of battle’s heat, no matter how he trains, he lacks the depths of brutality and viciousness that make him so formidable in true war. He is perfectly capable of duelling with a sword in training bouts, but it has never been his gift. Any one of the Ezekarion could, at their best, match him blade on blade. Telemachon and Vortigern could defeat him with relative ease.

 

A far cry from Abaddon being "sort of a bad duelist". Context is key. Keep in mind that he's described as evoking bronze age heroism in the same book; there's a reason why ADB models him in that way. Describing him as a "middling duelist" based on that passage is simply wrong because it's meant to be a reflection of Homeric heroes relying on the motivation provided by glory (i.e. real war) to rouse them to anger. It's why, e.g., when he kills a certain prominent White Scar in Solar War, both heroes match wits in a series of tiered stages, once again in a distinctly Homeric fashion. Abaddon being rubbish in a practice duel is not at all representative of the real thing.

Edited September 18, 2020 by Marshal Loss

[b1soul]

Abaddon should get EW, along with Sigismund. Fine with the Nemean having it as well...he's a tough-as-nails Rangda survivor who seems to have a big destiny ahead of him.

 

These strike mas the three pinnacles of Loyalists, Traitors, and those apart or in between, so to speak.

 

Abaddon is an "OK" duelist in the sparring cages perhaps. IIIRC, either Eikos Lamiad or Tours Nicodemus of the UM put him down in the cages. Abaddon on the battlefield fighting to end your life is a different matter.

[Indefragable]

Great ideas for Abaddon. 

 

I do like the idea of Eternal Warrior-Lite, either as @elzander said reducing them to 1W left or as others elsewhere have pointed out they take double wounds from Instant Death (so in most cases a 3-4W dudes loses 2W from an ID attack instead of 1). Semi-Eternal Warrior?

 

As for Abaddon....even if a Lite version is introduced I think Abaddon more than anyone else deserves the full blown "classic" Eternal Warrior. 

 

Couple ideas:

 

1. Like father, like son: Horus has Weaponmaster, allowing him to divide attacks between his talon and mace. While I'm reluctant from a design standpoint to have every son ape their father in everything (Azrael is mini-Lion, Grimnar is mini-Russ, etc....), it could be interesting to have Abaddon be able to switch between weapons just as well
2. Exemplar of his Legion: Sons of Horus rules say that if there are more models with SoH left than enemies in a combat at I1, each SoH model gets to make 1 free additional attack at I1. Abby could get this on steroids, being able to use all his attacks at I5 if he wishes, and then getting to attack again at I1 with his full attacks (or maybe just half or just a cap of 2) again, or with his fist. That would show his fearsome reputation as well as the survival-of-the-fittest psyche of Cthonia. He gets to try a lucky kill on someone on I5, and if it works, great. If not, a power fist is coming your way all over again. 
3. The Hans and Franz: get that boy some protein powder and make him S5 T5
4. 5 Wounds: what it says on the tin. Give him 5W so that he has more than any other similar character in the game (Siggy has 4) to represent his burliness. Coupled with Eternal Warrior that would also vaunt him to the top. 
5. KISS: Give him Eternal Warrior and make his power fist strike at initiative. Those two alone would vaunt him to the top of the pile, able to potentially one-shot anyone without EW (aka everyone not named Sigismund or Nemean), but still have to go 13 rounds with those who have it (aka Sigismund and Nemean

 

TL;DR: the simplest, quickest "fix" for Abaddon is + Eternal Warrior and make his Power Fist not-Unwieldy, though I personally generally prefer a bit more creativity with rules for special dudes

 

 

The scene stuck in my head is from ​The Solar War

where Jubal Khan is going to town on Abaddon, slicing and dicing and getting numerous light hits in and in boxing terms wracking up lots of points. However, Abaddon, essentially bides his time, weathers the blows, then--after timing Jubal's strikes--grabs Jubal's sword with his powers fist, crushing it, and stabbing him through the neck. It's a darker version of Loken's famous punching of Lucius. It's basically the Mountain vs the Viper from Game of Thrones (in a good way; spoilers for that clip if you haven't seen it).

 

***************

Added Qin Xa. 

 

...can't believe I forgot him. I would put him firmly in Tier 2 since what he brings to the table really relies on his I6. The ability to swap to the S+3 attack makes him ID T4 on the charge, but the lack of Concussive pulls him back a bit. 

 

**************

 

Regarding the current "rankings," anyone agree/disagree with where people are? I'm of half a mind to put Abaddon and Raldoron in Tier 2 because while no slouches, they perhaps do not stack up against the others as well as their reputation would bely.

 

I am especially struggling where to put Ral (fanboyism aside) : he's no slouch by any means, but he seems to lack a decisive shtick to have an edge against others. He seems to be sort of the middle ground in a bad way: a fast-attacker who is still slower than the "true" speedsters (Sev, Qin Xa, Sigismund), yet doesn't bring concussive or EW or any other of the "slow n' heavy" attributes to go the opposite of the spectrum. 

Edited September 18, 2020 by Indefragable

[b1soul]

Did some digging, and some claims on Reddit that Qin Xa would outduel Raldoron on the tabletop. Basically take +3S and let Ral go first, have a decent chance of surviving Ral's ID and then hit back with high chance of ID.