Top non-Primarch Duellist discussion

[Indefragable]

Did some digging, and some claims on Reddit that Qin Xa would outduel Raldoron on the tabletop. Basically take +3S and let Ral go first, have a decent chance of surviving Ral's ID and then hit back with high chance of ID.

If Qin gets the charge, he has a chance of doubling-out Ral. And Ral only gets ID on 6’s, so it’s a n interesting matchup for sure. In subsequent turns Qin goes first with I6, but can’t ID in  any way. Ral’s Murderous Strike and Shred could be what takes the cake in the long haul, especially if he is hitting on 3’s with WS7. So speed and a one-turn chance of ID are in Qin’s favor, but you only need Ral to fail a single roll.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Here's the math

 

If raldoran charges and qin xa strikes first (assuming he's getting his white scar rerolls);

 

-Xa has 6 attacks, which hit 3.5 times and cause 1 wound through invul.

-Raldoran has 6 attacks, which hit 4.62 times and cause 2.24 wounds through invul. There's a 38% chance to have gotten Murderous strike and qin xa to fail the save.

-xa has 5 attacks, which hit 3 times and causes 1 wound through invul.

-raldoran has 5 attacks, which hit 3.96 times and cause 1.92 wounds through invul.

 

Raldoran wins on round 2.

 

How about if qin xa switches to low initiative when raldoran charges? He'd take the same damage (dying on turn 2 from wounds and the chances of failing a murderous strike at 70%) so I'll just go over his attacks.

 

-xa has 6 attacks, which hit 3.5 times and cause 1.69 wounds through invul

 

So he can't do enough in one round after being charged, but interestingly he can switch to his initiative style in round two to try and finish things off. When you combine the round one Mountain with round two Mane you've done 2.69 unsaved wounds to raldoran, which is close enough to be an option.

 

Now, if qin xa does the charging (with white scars bonus from moving) at initiative he'll get that same 1.69 unsaved which will be followed up by 1 more wound on round 2 resulting in the same good chance to kill raldoran.

 

If he uses Mane, he'll still cause those 1.69 unsaved wounds, but of course they'll be instant death. Xa only has a 32% chance to die to murderous strike, so it's by far his best matchup.

 

 

Tldr; xa kills him if he charges and uses Mountain, gets close enough if he gets charged and uses Mountain into Mane on turn 2. It's a little too risky for raldoran imo.

[b1soul]

I would shift tabletop Abaddon and Ral from T1 to T2, especially Abaddon.

 

Abaddon is really underwhelming. I think he should get full EW. Again, he's not that impressive in honour duels or sparring cages, but he should be a 1v1 monster in battle. I would buff Abbie rather than Sev. I think they could've introduced an additional new NL character in Crusade.

[Monkeychunks]

The humble Thousand Sons Praetor deserves recognition for being an absolute beast on the tabletop.

Raptora Cult, Empath Bonds and a MC Hammer.

With a mix of 3+ Invul, Eternal Warrior and effective 7/8 S8 AP2 Concussive attacks, he has both the tank and the spank to win most duels.

 

Another honourable mention for an Emperors Children Praetor with a Divining Blade. While he can't match the big boys of duelling, he has a very good chance of getting an ID hit at Initiative 6.

Edited September 19, 2020 by Monkeychunks

[b1soul]

TSon Praetor has EW?

[Deadass]

If he rolls Endurance on the Biomancy table and manages to cast it, yeah.

Edited September 19, 2020 by AHorriblePerson

[Monkeychunks]

Empath Bonds, bro.

Of course he needs a buddy to wear the other one, so you can just take 2 Praetors.

[Deadass]

Ah, right. I guess a Word Bearers praetor with similar equipment may deserve a spot too - they can purchase Psychic Mastery Lvl 1 for any independent character.

[Indefragable]

In the TS or WB builds mentioned, how reliable is it to get those powers off?

 

I ask because there are theoretical edge cases out there that are impressive, but if the effort involved to get them is unrealistic and/or the reliability of the desired effects stacking is dubious, I wouldn’t count them in this list.

 

In comparison, the Salamanders’ Praetor build is straightforward, reliable, and relatively cost effective for what it gets you.

[Monkeychunks]

It's not dependent on any powers at all. As a psyker, TS and WB Praetors are eligible for Empath Bonds which, among other things, confer Eternal Warrior to the bearer. No random rolls or conditions required at all other than the points to buy them.

Similarly the 3++ comes from the Raptora Cult which is just chosen when writing your list.

 

The Word Bearers one is good for the same reasons but doesn't have the 3++ or as broad a range of psychic powers. As a result they are good but clearly not quite as good as the Thousand Sons one, so I don't think they belong in the same tier.

[Aeternus]

If we're including relics then throw in the sons of Horus armour and the imperial fists one (who also would take the solarite for bonus attack with digi lasers for maximum punching)

 

I think the most sensible thing in this discussion is to discount relics, and probably the Sallies NotARelic EW, and focus on named characters, but I don't really mind either way.

[b1soul]

I think talking about generic Praetors optimized with certain relics actually makes sense within this thread as we're simply discussing the best Astartes dueling assets on the tabletop, but there was a Generic Praetor thread a while ago which would be even more appropriate I think...

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/365986-generic-praetors/?do=findComment&comment=5589029