Saturnine Implications Horus, Cabal, etc. SPOILERS

[Moonreaper666]

I'm not certain spawndom is really a 'kill switch" on the Pantheons' champions. It's sometimes interpreted as a punishment, by those around the poor sod. Abbadon is a prime example - the Pantheon showers him with gifts, but he refuses to entirely play their game. So why haven't they just zapped him into a bag of eyeballs and found someone more pliable?

Likewise, just "boom, yer dead" isn't really a Pantheon play either. It's not their 'style', as it were. Insofar as paracausal manifestations of chaos and emotion can be considered 'constrained', the Pantheon is constrained by "narrative causality". Horus *can't* just drop dead of a stroke after killing the Emperor.

 

The Cabal's plan 'suits' the nature of their opponent. They know the nature of the Pantheon is self-defeating and are trying to give the gods enough narrative rope to hang themselves with.

The Word Bearer wasn't turned into a Spawn though, he just died though right after quitting in a sense. Can't remember which piece of lore he was from but it is not new lore

 

When has Abaddon ever gone against the Dark Gods' wishes? The Chaos Gods haven't really given Abaddon any specific goals and everythinh the new Warmaster has done has either fed or amuse them

 

Besides, the Chaos Gods don't need a kill-switch. Tzeentch once 'True Death' his Daemon Prince Yssarile one of his most powerful servants. This was in Hereticus, Eisenhorn Novel, and Yssarile was attempting to harm Tzeentch. If just one Chaos God can outright exterminate a powerful Daemon Prince then surely all Four of them can kill Chaos Horus outright after the Emperor's death IF the Cabal's plan is 100% correct. They can also just drain Horus of his lifeforce just like the Word Bearer above

 

And yet the Cabal's 'wish-fulfillment' (calling it a plan is an affront to actual plans) has been derailed pretty much the entire time by multiple actors not associated by Chaos:

 

-Eldrad

-Alpharius and Omegon

-Oll Perrson (Cabal agents failed to pursue him while he was time traveling)

-Narek (Crazy Loyalist WB kills the entire Cabal alongside Eldrad)

-John Grammaticus

[Scribe]

Continued misunderstanding of the relationship between Gods and Champions.

 

PS. Abnett plays loose with the setting, questionable value in pointing to his works as the end all be all.

[Brother Lunkhead]

Continued misunderstanding of the relationship between Gods and Champions.

 

Care to elaborate?

 

PS. Abnett plays loose with the setting.......

 

....... for example?

 

Your comments would have a lot more meaning if you would elaborate. Could you put some meat on these bones?

Edited November 7, 2020 by Brother Lunkhead

[Moonreaper666]

Another thing that allows Chaos to kill Horus after he kills the Emperor is because of the wound he got from Russ. Chaos Gods have to recharge Horus several times before the duel as the wound keeps draining his health and power

All the Chaos Gods have to do is NOT recharge Horus after killing the Emperor and just let the puppet die. (Or devour him in his weakened state) He wouldn't have that much power left after the duel and the wound will kill him assuming Horus and the Emperor don't mutually kill each other which is still a win for Chaos

If a Chaos God wants to permanently kill one of its servants (or a trillion) he can do so in a nanosecond

Abnett does have a lot of power in determining the lore

Wouldn't surprise me if some think of Warhammer as Chess when it's more like Go, except Chaos has unlimited turns and doesn't need to play by any rules

If the Chaos Gods really want to ensure Horus winning the Heresy they would have Doombreed escort Horus at all times. Isstvan III, Isstvan V, Beta-Garmon, Solar War and Siege of Terra would be one-sided massacres

Edited November 10, 2020 by Brother Lunkhead

[Scribe]

Do you really want to rehash Abnett? I mean many of us took part in discussion adjacent to this on the BL section.

 

The entire concept of the Perpetual story is loose at best, a reinventing of old lore, for his own ends.

 

It has no purpose, no need to exist in the heresy.

 

The entire Cabal arc? Nonsense.

 

His portrayal of the wolves required salvaging by multiple authors over any number of books, over literal years.

 

As to Chaos?

 

The concept that they are so invested that they could Thanos Snap anyone they desire is just poor story telling.

 

If the Gods are so mighty, then how unbelievably mighty is Abaddon for refusing them all?

 

The gods are these abstractions of emotional echos. They are soul stuff. They are not fundamentally logical beings.

 

Someone writing that Tzeetch decides to undo a Daemon Prince (remember folks, it's like the Genie in Aladdin. There is a price to power) has literally no bearing on Horus, as he's not a demon prince, but a Primarch, something 'other' and independent.

 

As far as the Gods are concerned, a Spawn is just as good as a Daemon Prince. Just as that 3rd eye is as good on ones forehead as on the bellybutton.

 

It's just so limited to believe that Chaos is just as logically oriented as the Emperor.

 

It has no reason to be that way. It's Eternal.

[Brother Lunkhead]

Do you really want to rehash Abnett? I mean many of us took part in discussion adjacent to this on the BL section.

 

Nooo.... not really, but you did say......

 

PS. Abnett plays loose with the setting, questionable value in pointing to his works as the end all be all.

 

..... so, how does he play 'fast and loose with the setting'? Stating this and then using said statement to question the value of referencing his works to support one's observations is not a cogent argument. 

 

The entire concept of the Perpetual story is loose at best, a reinventing of old lore, for his own ends.

 

It has no purpose, no need to exist in the heresy.

 

 

The Perpetual character John Gramaticus served the story in Abnett's Legion very well. This creates a bridge  for the reader with one economic character to connect the Alpha Legion to the Cabal, to create a motive for the AL to betray the Emperor and the Crusade (maybe), to get some insight into the Emperor in the past, and through his connection to the Cabal, some insight into another view of Chaos, and how to combat it (not necessarily correct or even clear views, but a different view with uncertain but definite consequences).

 

No need to exist in the Heresy? In Legion, he served an excellent purpose. As to after that, I think you have a point. The Perpetuals could have easily used in a more compelling manner, but that can be said of a lot of the Horus Heresy. Perhaps it would have been best if.......

 

the Perpetual arc had ended when Gramaticus spaced himself at the end of Legion.

 

The entire Cabal arc? Nonsense.

 

 

The Cabal served it's purpose well as a plot devise in motivating the AL into action in a certain towards Chaos. On the surface this raised a lot of questions for me  Below the surface this raised a lot of questions for me Either way the AL's interaction and consequences for the interactions with the Cabal made me love and hate the Alpha Legion in equal measure even more Through the Acuity, the Cabal gave the AL early warning and insight into the Chaos threat. As far as the rest of the Cabal/AL story arc goes, once again it could have been handled with more nuance and creativity. Perhaps it too should have ended when.....

 

ended when Gramaticus spaced himself at the end of Legion.

 

His portrayal of the wolves required salvaging by multiple authors over any number of books, over literal years.

 

 

I could challenge you on this, but I think this has more to do with understanding the Sons of Russ than understanding Chaos, so I'll leave this for another thread.

 

As to Chaos?

 

The concept that they are so invested that they could Thanos Snap anyone they desire is just poor story telling.

 

If the Gods are so mighty, then how unbelievably mighty is Abaddon for refusing them all?

 

The gods are these abstractions of emotional echos. They are soul stuff. They are not fundamentally logical beings.

 

Someone writing that Tzeetch decides to undo a Daemon Prince (remember folks, it's like the Genie in Aladdin. There is a price to power) has literally no bearing on Horus, as he's not a demon prince, but a Primarch, something 'other' and independent.

 

As far as the Gods are concerned, a Spawn is just as good as a Daemon Prince. Just as that 3rd eye is as good on ones forehead as on the bellybutton.

 

It's just so limited to believe that Chaos is just as logically oriented as the Emperor.

 

It has no reason to be that way. It's Eternal.

 

Now we're talkin' I think I can almost agree with you completely on this.

 

As far as Thanos Snapping goes, I don't think that's quite what's being suggested, but I see your point. The Chaos universe is ruled by a whole different phsyics than that of the mortal universe. Chaos' power in the mortal universe is very limited and needed to be wield power carefully and economically in order to use it most efficiently. 'Careful' and 'economic' are not words or concepts one normally associated with Chaos. These are not their strong suites. 

The Chaos gods do not wield total power in the mortalverse. They are reliant upon proxies like Horus and Erebus, or dupes like Magnus to achieve their goals. These proxies and dupes have their own goals and ambitions so they too must be handled with a degree of finesse. To add to the equation is the emotional nature of the Chaos universe, and thus the volatility of the Chaos gods and their machinations.

 

Wouldn't surprise me if some think of Warhammer as Chess when it's more like Go, except Chaos has unlimited turns and doesn't need to play by any rules

 

 

I don't think many view the actions of Chaos in terms of a game of chess, and if it is more like a game of Go, its a roaring, drunken, fist fighting, chair smashing, saloon brawling game of Go.

 

Another thing that allows Chaos to kill Horus after he kills the Emperor is because of the wound he got from Russ. Chaos Gods have to recharge Horus several times before the duel as the wound keeps draining his health and power

 

All the Chaos Gods have to do is NOT recharge Horus after killing the Emperor and just let the puppet die. (Or devour him in his weakened state) He wouldn't have that much power left after the duel and the wound will kill him assuming Horus and the Emperor don't mutually kill each other which is still a win for Chaos

 

If a Chaos God wants to permanently kill one of its servants (or a trillion) he can do so in a nanosecond

 

If the Chaos Gods really want to ensure Horus winning the Heresy they would have Doombreed escort Horus at all times. Isstvan III, Isstvan V, Beta-Garmon, Solar War and Siege of Terra would be one-sided massacres

 

Based on the limits imposed on the Chaos gods by their natures and the physical natures of the two universes, they simply cannot act with the kind of power they enjoy within the bounds of their home unverse, nor do they have the same freedom of movement. They must rely upon fragile allies, proxies, dupes and flesh puppets to realize just a portion of their ambitions.

 

As far as the Gods are concerned, a Spawn is just as good as a Daemon Prince. Just as that 3rd eye is as good on ones forehead as on the bellybutton.

 

 

Daemon Princes can be a battleship, a gun, a battle axe, a broad sword, or a rapier. They are complex weapons of mass destruction or a finely crafted weapon of more subtle death. A Chaos Spawn is a stick of dynamite. One use, BOOM and it's gone. One is a reward for servant on the long hard road to success. The other is punishment for a servant on the long hard road to failure. They are not the same, or of equal value.

 

 

It's just so limited to believe that Chaos is just as logically oriented as the Emperor.

 

It has no reason to be that way. It's Eternal.

 

So true

Edited November 11, 2020 by Brother Lunkhead

[Scribe]

So the Cabal is relevant, because it gave the AL a motive.

 

The Perpetual arc is relevant due to the Cabal link.

 

All 3 (AL motive, Perpetual, Cabal) of which were essentially invented for a single (Abnett) novel and to the best of my immediate knowledge have no prior existence, and marginal relevance even now, however many years later?

 

...

 

The entire novel and it's concepts are loose!

 

I had typed up a rant, but it's not needed.

 

The best AL Novel was Praetorian of Dorn, and it's not close.

[Brother Lunkhead]

I had typed up a rant, but it's not needed.

 

 

I'll just bet you did I'm sure we could go around and around on this until the stars burn out, but we should save that too for another thread. Meanwhile, back at the ranch........

Edited November 11, 2020 by Brother Lunkhead

[Scribe]

 

I had typed up a rant, but it's not needed.

 

 

I'll just bet you did I'm sure we could go around and around on this until the stars burn out, but we should save that too for another thread. Meanwhile, back at the ranch........

 

 

(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻

 

 

 

 

 

Based on the limits imposed on the Chaos gods by their natures and the physical natures of the two universes, they simply cannot act with the kind of power they enjoy within the bounds of their home unverse, nor do they have the same freedom of movement. They must rely upon fragile allies, proxies, dupes and flesh puppets to realize just a portion of their ambitions.

 

 

This is pretty much what I was alluding to, if Chaos could project its power at will, unlimited as it is within the Warp, into the material?

 

Well the setting would be a lot less interesting.

[Brother Lunkhead]

 

(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻

 

That's the spirit

[Aias]

The best AL Novel was Praetorian of Dorn, and it's not close.

 

I'd argue that the best AL novel was The Serpent Beneath, but I'll grant you Praetorian on the technicality that Serpent was a novella, not a full novel.

[Moonreaper666]

Well it's not my fault GW/BL has a tendency to have the Chaos Gods directly affect the mortal plane, mostly in Fantasy but there is at least one example in 40k

 

Since Khorne can selectively purged life on an entire planet then he can do it again and the other Chaos Gods have that ability (There maybe certain limitations but the fact is that Khorne DIRECTLY purged a planet)

 

I know why the Chaos Gods didn't care whether Horus either won or lost the Heresy as long as certain objectives were completed in some way (Emperor, Magnus and Webway Project) and it is based on two key elements the Dark Gods have: Craving for entertainment and sadism

 

As stated in the Fabius novels by an Eldar, the gods are like children in terms of their attention span and boredom. This why they only do the bare minimum to ensure the Heresy accomplishes the basic objections and have a chance of completing secondary objections (Magnus dying is primary, Magnus joining Chaos is a bonus)

 

The Chaos Gods have much more Sadism than the Dark Eldar and those sadist wring out every bit of hope and 'fun' from their slaves. The Heresy was not designed for maximum efficieny or results but for maximum entertainment. And it shows during the Civil War

 

-Having Lorgar kill Vulkan using the Shard of Erebus/Fulgurite? Effective and ensures Heresy victory. Having Konrad torture Vulkan? Very 'entertaining'

 

-Empowering the Traitors just enough to cripple the Emperor and Imperium forever? Priceless fun. Giving the Traitors overkill power to curbstomp the Imperium? Sure, 100% victory but its too easy

 

(As someone who plays easy and hard games I know the feeling)

 

You know what would be the most Grimdark way to retcon the Heresy? Have it so the entire Heresy, the entire history of Warhammer 40k, is pointless in every way

 

During the duel have the Chaos Gods directly speak to Dorn, a dying Sanginius, Horus, Abaddon, Loken, Oll Perrson/Ollianus, Neoth/Emperor, Malcador, Keeler and Amon

 

The Chaos Gods spill the beans. EVERYTHING has been planned. EVERYTHING. Every-goddamn-miserable event that has happened AND WILL HAPPENED in the mortal realm has been planned out by the Chaos. They are all just actors in a movie including the Emperor himself

 

The Webway Project? Never was going to work even when completed it would have cause Warp breaches everywhere. Horus winning and conquering the Imperium? Never, Chaos is just going to let him die right next to the Throne. Dorn being better than Perturabo? No, Perturabo knows certain flaws within the Throne and Astronomican and only he not Dorn can fix it. Magnus able to sit in the Golden Throne? Nope, he becomes a Chaos Spawn and becomes a bomb which blows up the entire Sol Segmentum. Chaos Gods spared Loken so that he could never be with Melisae even in death. Abaddon being the New Warmaster is revealed

 

Best part, Dorn has his lips magically sealed so he can't say the truth. The Emperor and Horus have the faces of those that got lured into a Ponzi scheme. Abaddon and Loken tear into each other with ALL the existential rage in them

[Scribe]

I don't know what I just read Moonreaper.

 

If you are arguing that without context, the gods can snap their fingers and wipe a world. I don't think that's realistic to the setting.

 

If you are arguing that it's all 'just as planned' when each of them hates the other and the god of planning is also the god of ruining it's own plans. I don't think that's realistic to the setting.

 

If you want to say Chaos won, well that's obvious, and ADB made that crystal clear.

 

Ultimately, what I think you are claiming however is neither realistically applied to how the setting functions, or if it was, would be a particularly interesting and long running setting at all.

[Scribe]

... well, I would say that whatever game the Emperor is playing against these immense ex-temporal adversaries (whether Paradox Billiards Vostroyan Roulette Fourth Dimensional Hypercube Chess Strip Poker or otherwise ) , at the very least, He has not *lost* .

 

And sometimes, that in and of itself, is quite a mighty victory.

Is it?

 

Have you ever played a game where it's not 'over', but you literally cannot win?

 

A game like the Total War series, where you could realistically get in a scenario where you win the majority of your battles, but you absolutely have no path to campaign victory?

 

That's 40K, but it's even worse, because the big bad doesn't WANT a Campaign Victory either. It simply wants those battles to continue.

 

10K years of war. Of illness. Of sensation. Of change.

 

10K years of Chaos.

 

Survival is not victory. That's the beauty of the setting.

[Moonreaper666]

I don't know what I just read Moonreaper.

 

If you are arguing that without context, the gods can snap their fingers and wipe a world. I don't think that's realistic to the setting.

 

If you are arguing that it's all 'just as planned' when each of them hates the other and the god of planning is also the god of ruining it's own plans. I don't think that's realistic to the setting.

 

If you want to say Chaos won, well that's obvious, and ADB made that crystal clear.

 

Ultimately, what I think you are claiming however is neither realistically applied to how the setting functions, or if it was, would be a particularly interesting and long running setting at all.

Clearly, you don't know the lore like I do. A planet was invaded by Khornate Daemons defended by Guardsmen and Space Marines which later Nurgle Daemons got involved. Khorne got angry and unleashed his wrath which killed/banished Imperial civilians, Guardsmen and Nurgle Daemons. This shows that Chaos Gods can wipe out life on a planet in a sective manner showing how much power and control they have in Realspace

 

The Daemon Prince of Tzeentch, Xyn'goran, controls time. His Daemon World makes people go old very fast. Xyn'goran can also see the future and gave this as a gift to Abaddon

 

It would be Grimdark for Chaos Gods to tell the Emperor that they have predicted and planned for any possible scenarios meaning that Neoth's 'plans' were pointless. They had full-proof contingencies in place if:

 

-Magnus wouldn't turn to Chaos and the Webway Project was completed

 

-Emperor is not mortally wounded

 

-Ynnari form up and acquire all swords. Ynnead at full power

 

-The Beast Orks and Tyranids. The Four intentionally wanted the Tyranids to come

 

-Guilliman is brought back to life and Corax returns

 

They tell the Emperor and Horus this just for them to see their broken, hopeless faces. The problem with many 40k fans is that they view the backstory in the eyes of human adults when they should have the mindset of godlike-children sitting on top and pulling the strings on the pieces/pupoets and making them 'dance'

 

The point of Warhammer is not Raging against the Dying Life but to provide entertainment to the Chaos Gods as they move their 'Tabletop pieces' such as Horus and the Emperor. It is a commentary on the nature of power and domination. After all the best villains are the ones that think they are the protagonists of their own stories (Abaddon, Loken, Eisenhorn, Emperor, Guilliman, Horus, Ravenor, Hyperion will find this out the hard way. Magnus realized the truth at Prospero)

[Scribe]

I simply LOL.

 

 

Clearly, you don't know the lore like I do. A planet was invaded by Khornate Daemons defended by Guardsmen and Space Marines which later Nurgle Daemons got involved. Khorne got angry and unleashed his wrath which killed/banished Imperial civilians, Guardsmen and Nurgle Daemons. This shows that Chaos Gods can wipe out life on a planet in a sective manner showing how much power and control they have in Realspace

The Daemon Prince of Tzeentch, Xyn'goran, controls time. His Daemon World makes people go old very fast. Xyn'goran can also see the future and gave this as a gift to Abaddon

It would be Grimdark for Chaos Gods to tell the Emperor that they have predicted and planned for any possible scenarios meaning that Neoth's 'plans' were pointless. They had full-proof contingencies in place if:

-Magnus wouldn't turn to Chaos and the Webway Project was completed

-Emperor is not mortally wounded

-Ynnari form up and acquire all swords. Ynnead at full power

-The Beast Orks and Tyranids. The Four intentionally wanted the Tyranids to come

-Guilliman is brought back to life and Corax returns

They tell the Emperor and Horus this just for them to see their broken, hopeless faces. The problem with many 40k fans is that they view the backstory in the eyes of human adults when they should have the mindset of godlike-children sitting on top and pulling the strings on the pieces/pupoets and making them 'dance'

The point of Warhammer is not Raging against the Dying Life but to provide entertainment to the Chaos Gods as they move their 'Tabletop pieces' such as Horus and the Emperor. It is a commentary on the nature of power and domination. After all the best villains are the ones that think they are the protagonists of their own stories (Abaddon, Loken, Eisenhorn, Emperor, Guilliman, Horus, Ravenor, Hyperion will find this out the hard way. Magnus realized the truth at Prospero)

 

 

1. A planet already in the throws of Demonic possession by 2 Gods, and 1 flexed a bit. That is not = 'without context, Khorne can Thanos Snap a planet'. The invasion literally IS the context.

 

2. Daemon World. 'nuff said. If you actually understand the lore, you will know why.

 

On to the fan fiction.

 

3. What was this fool proof contingency?

 

4. Again, this is hardly relevant. The Emperor wounded or not changes nothing, they cannot fix the Web Way. THAT is the pivotal moment in the lore.

 

5. This has...nothing to do with anything, and is a problematic entry into the lore, full stop. Since you are so well versed in it, I'm sure you can tell me why.

 

6. ??? We know what called out to the Nids, and it sure wasnt Chaos. Again you have this encyclopedic knowledge, fill in the blank. "____ is what called to the Nids.".

 

7. Corax is returned? Where did that happen now?

 

You are incredibly sure of your interpretation when you have really only demonstrated what you desire, or think is going on.

 

The point of the setting is certainly not just a commentary on power and domination, its a commentary on many things, and certainly that is part of it, but more than anything its a satire, its a reflection that humanity is its own worst enemy, the source of its own failures, the 'tragedy' (and this is my own head canon) in the classical sense, that the Emperor in his arrogance, continued to make the same mistakes, and got his reward in the end.

 

It has little to do with the 4 Gods, thats hardly the point at all.

 

Carry on though, you are clearly deeply embedded in the nuances of the setting or the 1d4chan versions anyway.

 

"Do I look like a guy with a plan?" - Chaos Gods

 

Edited November 12, 2020 by Scribe

[Brother Lunkhead]

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Temporarily under review

 

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[Brother Lunkhead]

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This topic thread is now reopened for discussion.

Before you continue posting, keep in mind that this discussion thread was initially based on one person's speculation, based upon their interpretation and understanding of the lore. It is perfectly fine to disagree with an argument, but do so in a respectful and constructive manner. The time honored method for doing this is defending your position by referencing quotes and citations. You can also provide a link to other discussion threads in the B&C or lengthy citations outside of the B&C.

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As you ponder continued discussion here, or anywhere in the forum, keep the above suggestions in mind. 

If you are looking for a place to jump back in here, I suggest the the middle portion of this thread. There is some very interesting and constructive discussion there. Above all, as you continue........

Keep it friendly and keep it focused.*

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*Special thanks to Brother Tyler for his contribution here.

[Brother Lunkhead]

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Locked down again

 

I am locking this thread down for a 24 hour cooldown. Since reopening this thread every single post has been inappropriate, off topic and in violation of B&C forum rules of conduct. It is one thing to constructively critique one person's observations that you disagree with, but it is quite another thing to rudely criticize those observations and call for that individual to be silenced even though they have broken no rules. This is especially true since one can so very easily ignore one lone thread that they don't like, and choose one more to their liking among so many more subject threads. Do we now censure and censor our fellow fraters because we find their opinions and observations counter to ours, and we think that they don't defend or refute their views to our liking? That would lead us down a slippery slope to a very dark place.

 

If you wish to continue posting here, please take time to review my above post and the rules of the Bolter and Chainsword. When I reopen this thread ANY frater who posts in violation of the B&C rules will receive immediate sanction(s) as appropriate. In spite of what some may think, Moderators dislike giving out sanctions and always do so reluctantly. I deeply regret being so heavy handed, but I see no choice at this point. To those who have viewed and posted with good will, you have my apology for this inconvenience. To those who have posted outside of the spirit of this forum.....

 

This is your final warning.

 

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[Brother Lunkhead]

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Time to reopen already? How time flies......

 

Okay Fraters, play ball and play clean.

 

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