Warp Time on Deepstrikes Legal Again?

[Doom Herald]

Looking through the current FAQ/Errata for Codex: CSM [iI] and the book itself, I've noticed a lack of anything saying that you cannot use Warptime on a unit that arrived from reserves. Does this mean that you can Warptime something such as Warptalons again, or is there another rule somewhere that I'm missing?

[Special Officer Doofy]

I wish death guard got access to dark heretics spells. Best spells in the game in my opinion. I'm curious as to the ruling on that doom herald. Hopefully someone knows.

[Karhedron]

I don't know. Perhaps GW feels that with changes to Reserves in 9th this is less of problem. Units can only enter play in your DZ on turn 1 and in no-man's land on T2. While this makes a T2 charge very easy to pull off, it is no longer the T1 alpha-strike it was in 8th.

 

Its nasty for sure but I don't know if it much worse than the tricks some other armies can pull off. Chaplains with Canticle of Hate are nearly as good, cannot be blocked by Deny the Witch and can potentially buff multiple units. Both Blood Angels and Space Wolves have ways to stack charge rerolls with the +2" charge move meaning that the chances of a successful charge from Reserves goes up to around 83%.

 

It is worth posting the query directly to the GW rules team but my hunch is it may be a deliberate change.

[Doctor Perils]

Are you saying my deepstriking warp talons and sorcerer could be viable again?

[Karhedron]

Are you saying my deepstriking warp talons and sorcerer could be viable again?

Nothing so concrete. 

 

I am merely speculating that such a change might not be entirely unreasonable. 

[MegaVolt87]

I think the orks have their own version of warp time we could compare with mechanically ?

[Karhedron]

Just checked and sorry to disappoint you but Warp Time shennanigens are still illegal. The reason is that the restrictions on Reserves are now part of the core rules in 9th.

 

Reinforcement units cannot make a Normal Move, Advance, Fall,

Back or Remain Stationary in the turn they arrive for any reason, but

they can otherwise act normally (shoot, charge, fight etc.).

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/Lw4o3USx1R8sU7cQ.pdf

Edited September 21, 2020 by Karhedron

[Doom Herald]

That is a shame. Like you said, it doesn't seem that unreasonable at this point. Aside from ensuring a charge, I don't see this as being particularly dangerous. It would be nice to see it allowed in the future through a wording change to Warptime (ie: may move as if making a normal move), but I suspect that won't happen. Then again, if there are benefits to remaining stationary, they may have to word it differently to avoid models that moved from using their second movement to "Remain Stationary." I can't think of any off the top of my head, though.

[Annatar Giftbringer]

Remain stationary means no -1 to hit with heavy weapons?

[Doom Herald]

Remain stationary means no -1 to hit with heavy weapons?

Does that come from the Remain Stationary action or from not moving?

[Ezekyle_Abaddon]

 

Remain stationary means no -1 to hit with heavy weapons?

Does that come from the Remain Stationary action or from not moving?

 

 

What I think Annatar Giftbringer is referring to is the when an infantry unit moves with a heavy weapon it suffers a -1 to hit with that weapon. However units coming from reserves are counted as if they performed a normal move.  

[Annatar Giftbringer]

 

Remain stationary means no -1 to hit with heavy weapons?

Does that come from the Remain Stationary action or from not moving?

Technically from the remain stationary action, which is why it doesn’t apply to deepstrike units.

 

If you look at the movement chapter of the role book, each unit can (Must?) choose from three types of movement in the movement phase:

 

Normal move

Advance

Remain stationary

 

A unit in engagement range may choose to remain stationary of fall back.

 

Not moving a unit means that it chose the option “remain stationary”, which is the required condition for firing heavy weapons without penalty (and for using summoning ritual, if you play chaos).

 

A unit arriving from deepstrike may not activate the “remain stationary” option, so while they cannot move, they also do not count as not having moved.

 

Prior versions of the deep strike rule simply used the wording “counts as having moved” But with the new (and imho improved) way of writing rules GW clarifies it by flagging the “no move” as a movement option itself.

Edited September 22, 2020 by Annatar Giftbringer

[Doom Herald]

Yeah, with the exception of the question about FLY models charging AIRCRAFT, they seem to have done a better job covering things in 9th. Now, if only they could assemble it more cohesively and have an index that's actually useful. I've had too many (friendly) debates about what has changed with 9th. I was convinced by someone for a few hours that I could run my CSM detachment with Cypher until I accidentally found the rule that prevents it in the Grand Tournament rules. Having to piece non-faction rules together has been rough, I'm not a fan of bouncing back and forth from chapter to chapter between two books and hoping I can find the right word in the index to point me towards it, and then hoping that part of the book covers what I'm looking up.

[Annatar Giftbringer]

I don’t have the Grand tournament rules, do they forbid using CHAOS as the detachment common keyword or something like that?

 

And if so, in which game modes does this apply, tournaments only or all match play, or..?

 

I hadn’t even thought about poor Cypher until you mentioned him, but purely by looking at the codex he does look playable...

Edited September 22, 2020 by Annatar Giftbringer

[Doom Herald]

It just applies to tournament rules or matches that use tournament rules. Locally, most matched play games are practice for tournaments, and so, we almost always use them. CHAOS is not a valid detachment faction for tournament rules, but it can be your army faction. As a result, if you want to use Cypher, you either have to run him in an Auxiliary or Vanguard (with 3 units of Fallen), both of which eat into your CP. While I feel like these units are actually good, they aren't superior in any kind of way that justifies losing CP for a detachment of just them.

 

Edit: maybe if you're playing Red Corsairs, the sting will be lessened. That said, a detachment of Daemons or Knights or another legion/warband will probably be a better use.

Edited September 22, 2020 by Doom Herald

[Annatar Giftbringer]

So basically it’s like it used to be, but the CHAOS restriction is in the tournament pack rather than in an FAQ? Gotcha!

 

It also means that there’s a better chance when playing among friends to actually use Cypher* since nothing in the codex or matched play rules forbid it anymore, sweet!

 

I have no idea how to use him or what to do with him, but I like the character and it could be fun to just toss him in there :)

 

*without getting an extra detachment

[ChazSexington]

It would seem you can use Renascent Infiltration and Warptime though. 

Edited September 22, 2020 by ChazSexington

[Karhedron]

It would seem you can use Renascent Infiltration and Warptime though.

I admit that does look like a valid combo. There are various stratagems that allow units to redeploy as if they were coming in from Reserve but don't actually count as doing so (Upon Wings of Fire is a similar one that springs to mind). I wonder how these interact with Stratagems like Auspex Scan that trigger off units arriving from Reserve? I suppose they don't.

[ChazSexington]

 

It would seem you can use Renascent Infiltration and Warptime though.

I admit that does look like a valid combo. There are various stratagems that allow units to redeploy as if they were coming in from Reserve but don't actually count as doing so (Upon Wings of Fire is a similar one that springs to mind). I wonder how these interact with Stratagems like Auspex Scan that trigger off units arriving from Reserve? I suppose they don't.

 

 

Upon closer inspection, you can't, as per page 363 in the Core rulebook. A weird thing to have rules in the appendix that aren't detailed in the rules section tbh. 

[Karhedron]

Good catch! Well that answers all my questions although why it is there rather than in the main rules of Reserves is a mystery to me. 

[ChazSexington]

Good catch! Well that answers all my questions although why it is there rather than in the main rules of Reserves is a mystery to me. 

 

Ditto - I asked on Reddit as it instinctively felt wrong. They clarified and redirected me.