Book 9, rules

[shang]

Hi guys.

I have not picked up the new book yet, i might not given the lengh of it.

I am just asking those who have it, what are the new rites of war for the night lords and rules for new units?

 

[Dagoth Ur]

https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Warhammer_40,000/Tactics/Space_Marine_Legion_List_(30k)#VIII_Legion:_Night_Lords

 

Voilà

[shang]

Thank you very much. Sevatar got the buff he needed.

Swift blade looks very cool; bloody gauntlet looks awful.

All in all, good buff.

[ProsperoStands]

Its worth picking up.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Its worth picking up.

If he's purely after rules for one legion then I'm afraid 10 pages for whatever large amount of money in local currency is a hard sell. You really gotta be a big fan of either legions and interested in the thramas campaign and the art and all that for it to be worth it.

[shang]

The Contekar Terminators rules are ok, but i wonder what the weapon options are, and point costs.

Chain glaves are cool, but i want power fists.

[Aeternus]

The Contekar Terminators rules are ok, but i wonder what the weapon options are, and point costs.

Chain glaves are cool, but i want power fists.

 

They don't even have chain glaives :'( One handed chainblades, rending power swords. Flamers come stock, the lovely (but weirdly costly and low range) volkite is 2 meltabombs ppm, while the claw on the sgt (which again I feel could have been all of them without affecting the balance much) is 3 meltabombs. 

 

If you're after a completely comprehensive go through of all the NL rules, mostly with points and with some (in my opinion mostly accurate) opinion, check out Legio Traitoris

Edited September 21, 2020 by Aeternus

[SkimaskMohawk]

The Contekar Terminators rules are ok, but i wonder what the weapon options are, and point costs.

Chain glaves are cool, but i want power fists.

Only the leader can get a fist. It's about 230 for a base flamer squad of 5.

 

The real value is treating them as your compulsory hq. When viewed through that lense they suddenly spike in value. You get a base 6 wounds, 11 attacks and a minimum 5 heavy flamer hits, plus score. Pairs very well with a support officer.

 

@aeternas That link is only useful as a very baseline look at the rules; it's surface level in every sense. It's awful for any deep analysis of point cost, slot efficiency, role use or any other piece of tactical/strategic value. The author even takes issue with people calling compulsory units...compulsory units. Because despite the rules calling them that, it's a pejorative against the narrative or something like that.

Edited September 21, 2020 by SkimaskMohawk

[shang]

They look good at dealing with anything that has not got artificer and terminator armor.

Maybe they might find some utility in zone mortalis.

[Askari]

Are the Ironwing and Ravenwing protocols still allowed or have they been removed?

[Aeternus]

Are the Ironwing and Ravenwing protocols still allowed or have they been removed?

 

It's an ongoing discussion amongst some groups I think, but RAW still allowed (don't think they have the same clause at the start of their section as the NL do) but probably RAI they've been replaced.

Edited September 22, 2020 by Aeternus

[Aeternus]

 

@aeternas That link is only useful as a very baseline look at the rules; it's surface level in every sense. It's awful for any deep analysis of point cost, slot efficiency, role use or any other piece of tactical/strategic value. The author even takes issue with people calling compulsory units...compulsory units. Because despite the rules calling them that, it's a pejorative against the narrative or something like that.

 

 

Fair enough. I can't say I've been through it all but imo it's a good pointer to as somewhere which has, at the most literal sense, all the rules and the points costs to go with. While I agree that general tactical/strategic and slot efficiency discussion is off/lacking I'd argue a medium level analysis of points cost is there. Granted I do have opinions towards some elements of the book that align with their opinions (largely around Contekar value outside of using them as HQs (see the issue with deep strike/general use and flamer template), stasis effect, and as such Curze compared to the Lion) so I'm definitely biased, but I'd still support it in the context of a basic overview of all the units and the new elements, even if then further discussion (such as the every. single. article. explaining aTfM, and the insistence on every NL option being narrative based) can be less impressive. In all honesty I didn't notice the compulsory unit issue or overlooked it so can't speak there.

Edited September 22, 2020 by Aeternus

[SkimaskMohawk]

The compulsory thing and a lot of rather shallow, hot takes took place on Facebook.

 

I'll admit it's very good for getting the raw points and special rules.

 

Idk, the guy is crying about the Lion being stronger than curze in combat and especially the 1v1. But the lion is the most overcosted primarch of them all lol. Hes awful, because you pay so much and don't provide any synergy to your list at all. I'll take curze that has melee limits but provides lots of synergy over the lion that can hit people worse than angron but costs way more. Like ya it sucks that you don't get to reroll the charge with raptors and curze. So? Sanguinius gives jump pack charge to his army; the Lions only claim to buffing is the auto-charge. Neither are good equivalents. Kind of rambling, but the point is curze is very well-rounded; he can't fight heavy vehicles and doesn't get a special pass to get perfect synergy with one of his main escorts, but gets a swathe of buffs that make him more useful than the majority of other primarchs. Who are also spotty when it comes to vehicles.

[Dagoth Ur]

Are the Ironwing and Ravenwing protocols still allowed or have they been removed?

As written nothing indicates that they have been removed as there is no preamble to the chapter that says as much (compare to the new Night Lords chapter that indicates as much). If they really wind up being replaced by the new rites of war then thats a crying shame because the new Ironwing and Ravenwing ones are garbage in comparison.

 

In regards to the Lion - I've managed to get in a few games at 3-4k points and I am pretty happy with him. Sure, he isn't the force multiplier that the likes of Alpharius or Sanguinius are but I am yet to find him wanting in my games and he has shown himself to be very reliable at taking out other primarchs. I've mostly ran the Eskaton Imperative, Pride of the Legion, Ironwing Protocol and Primarch's Chosen RoWs for reference.

 

All in all Crusade has been a really mixed bag for me. Very happy for the buffs the NL received and I am a big fan of pretty much all the units we DA received (bar maybe the Firewing Cabal - still trying to figure that one out) but the RoWs are either mediocre for the most part or downright awful (I cannot for the life of me figure out why someone would ever use the Unbroken Vow over Pride of the Legion or Primarch's Chosen). Having played the Firewing and Dreadwing rites of war, I can say that those are some good fun and also nicely thematic. The Excindio Automata may be overcosted/too high risk of going native but I kinda like that - adds a bit of risk to the game and again feels thematic.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Well the lion should be getting good results in melee; he's extremely capable in that regard and I think the best primarch duelist because he ignores the blind+concussive combo of perturabo, ramps up in attacks and has respectable defensive armour. Higher point games also let you be a little more free with points and invariably gives him targets to access with the large amount of stuff on the table.

 

But.

 

Is him being a beatstick worth that many points, considering that's the only thing he does? When you compare him to angron, who's better at killing stuff but worse against primarchs, there's quite a discount due to the fact he only provides a fearless aura. Compare him to corax who's roughly the same points and you have a more mobile primarch who is able to duel, vehicle hunt or butcher infantry almost as well as the lion, but also gives army wide buffs and debuffs to deepstrike. Ya, the lion can beat any of these in the 1v1, but the point is that for the high 400s he should be providing a little more. Sanguinius and Russ shift the foc in addition to having other things and they're also extremely beatsticky

[TheCelticRaven]

Are the Ironwing and Ravenwing protocols still allowed or have they been removed?

They are not valid any more, the book 9 includes a rewrite of the Legiones Astartes Appendix: Dark Angels

This means the previous Legiones Astartes Appendix: Dark Angels in book 6 is invalidated under the rule that newer rules surpass older rules.

[Dagoth Ur]

Well the lion should be getting good results in melee; he's extremely capable in that regard and I think the best primarch duelist because he ignores the blind+concussive combo of perturabo, ramps up in attacks and has respectable defensive armour. Higher point games also let you be a little more free with points and invariably gives him targets to access with the large amount of stuff on the table.

 

But.

 

Is him being a beatstick worth that many points, considering that's the only thing he does? When you compare him to angron, who's better at killing stuff but worse against primarchs, there's quite a discount due to the fact he only provides a fearless aura. Compare him to corax who's roughly the same points and you have a more mobile primarch who is able to duel, vehicle hunt or butcher infantry almost as well as the lion, but also gives army wide buffs and debuffs to deepstrike. Ya, the lion can beat any of these in the 1v1, but the point is that for the high 400s he should be providing a little more. Sanguinius and Russ shift the foc in addition to having other things and they're also extremely beatsticky

I dunno man, I guess I am just not that bothered by it. Yeah sure the Lion could have added more to his force for the points he requires, but as I said - it works for me. Me and my group don't really do 100% efficient builds and beyond being decently playable we don't ask for much more. I take more issues with our legion rules and RoW than anything else - the Lion I can at least properly play with and have fun, but some of those RoW just make me want to cry.

[SkimaskMohawk]

That's totally fine and I don't want to say that he's unusable or anything. Hes very, very good at combat.

 

It's just when I see other night lord players say that curze got done dirty by the lion in terms of rules I just kind of scratch my head. Like one is wholly, completely focussed on beating people up and is (imo) overpriced for that function, while the latter is very well rounded with strategic and and tactical buffs.

 

@Celticraven the argument gets muddied when there's explicit wording removing previous night lord rules. Setting a precedent and all that.

[Ayatollah_of_Rock_n_Rolla]

@Celticraven the argument gets muddied when there's explicit wording removing previous night lord rules. Setting a precedent and all that.

 BA and WS lists form Malevolence also do not explicitly change the appendix from Retribution and there are differences aswell (eg. nerf to  WS' Swift Action rule). In my opinion, the thing with NL is that their rules change the "core" red books. We should just learn to let it go.

[Allart01]

Agreed; thinking we still have the book VI Rows is simply denial.

You'd think the Ironwing and Ravenwing protocols would require Scions of the respective Wings to be called upon, wouldn't you?

[SkimaskMohawk]

From a rules standpoint? Ya there's nothing stopping you from using the rules in book 6 with white scars. The custodes are explicitly called out as having updated rules.

 

Doesn't really matter what I think about needing scions to get protocols; I think corswain should have mastery of the blade but he doesn't.

[WrathOfTheLion]

I think he obviously does, it's clear from his description that he has a Terranic Greatsword.

 

Rules as written in that mind, the characters called out as having Mastery of the Blade don't have it, because Mastery of the Blade says nothing about swords, but says that bonuses are given to an exhaustive list of weapons. So 'Counts as a sword' means nothing according to the rule, unless it's meant that any weapon modeled as a sword counts. In which case Corswain would get it.

 

The restriction of mastery of the blade is:

When fighting in an assault with one of the following weapons: combat blade, chainsword, power sword, Terranic greatsword, Calibanite war blade, Charnabal sabre, Calibanite Charge-blade and paragon blades modelled as swords...

 

So nowhere, except as a restriction to modelling for Paragon Blades, does it mention swords! So the addendum for Marduk Sedras' The Death of Worlds, 'The Death of Worlds counts as a sword for the purposes of the Mastery of the Blade Legion special rule', means nothing as swords are not what's applied to by the rule, unless we're to take it at the obvious and they mean any sword weapon.

In my opinion, the difference between Corswain and Lion El'Jonson, and Sedras, Redloss and Holguin, is that the first two would have models, and the latter three it's up to the players to make an interpretation of the character, and that's advice that you should model it as a sword for it to count. We see plenty of that sort of addendums elsewhere, where they give advice on the display of the unit, such as that a compulsory Destroyer squad with the Scions of the Dreadwing on them should be identifiable with the Dreadwing iconography instead of, or in addition to, the destroyer iconography.

Edited September 23, 2020 by WrathOfTheLion

[Ayatollah_of_Rock_n_Rolla]

From a rules standpoint? Ya there's nothing stopping you from using the rules in book 6 with white scars. The custodes are explicitly called out as having updated rules.

 

Doesn't really matter what I think about needing scions to get protocols; I think corswain should have mastery of the blade but he doesn't.

So let's twist it a bit: can my opponent argue that I can't field Sanguinius because it is nowhere stated that the appendix from HH8 is updated in comparision to the appendix from the HH6? Also: in HH6 the new legion rules are specified to be used with the Legiones Astartes book. Likewise, all the extensions of the common units are specified to extend the red books. Meanwhile BA and WS appendixes from HH8 and DA appendix from HH9 do not state that these rules are to be used with the red books. Does it mean that BA, WS and DA players can only use units from their respective appendixes?

[TheCelticRaven]

From a rules standpoint? Ya there's nothing stopping you from using the rules in book 6 with white scars. The custodes are explicitly called out as having updated rules.

 

Doesn't really matter what I think about needing scions to get protocols; I think corswain should have mastery of the blade but he doesn't.

new rules always overwrite old rules, that is GW and FW policy, if you want you can email them for confirmation.

[Dagoth Ur]

 

From a rules standpoint? Ya there's nothing stopping you from using the rules in book 6 with white scars. The custodes are explicitly called out as having updated rules.

 

Doesn't really matter what I think about needing scions to get protocols; I think corswain should have mastery of the blade but he doesn't.

new rules always overwrite old rules, that is GW and FW policy, if you want you can email them for confirmation.

 

Doing so as we speak - will report back with results because I am genuinely curious now.

 

Edit: Email sent - I have also asked in regards to some of the omissions to Mastery of the Blade. I will publish the answer once I have them and we'll know if the two Protocols are obsolete and if MotB applies to The Blade, the Lion Sword, the Wolf Blade and Divining Blades.

Edited September 23, 2020 by The Observer