Indefragable Posted September 22, 2020 Share Posted September 22, 2020 (edited) Below please find a catalog of what we know about each Legion's forte, size, fleet, and original Terran genetic sources. With the release of FW's Black Book 9: Crusade, we now have the last piece of the puzzle (The Dark Angels) and so I present the notes I've been taking as I've read each of the Black Books. The purpose of this listing is to put everything in one place (something I made on my own just to wrap my own head around) in order to compare, contrast, and to better understand where each was in terms of size and scope at the height and end of the Great Crusade. Further--especially for a nerd like me--it is intriguing to try to suss out some of the original intentions for each, with details such as where their original Terran candidates were recruited from. More data and categories may be added down the road, but this is the start. All data is taken from ForgeWorld Black Books, what I consider the Primary Sources for this comparison. This is also intended to be a living list and so I ask the community for input and help filling in gaps, especially in places where it says DATA MISSING (see notes at the end of this post for glossary). Hope you enjoy and/or find this useful. The Legiones Astartes Hidden Content I The Dark Angels Observed Strategic Tendencies: None; within the Legion there was at least one Host or Order dedicated to each discipline of war. OP Note: Previous iterations in Book 6: Retribution listed the following instead of the above, most recent version in Book 9: Crusade (take as you will) : *Observed Strategic Tendencies: Combined arms and multi-spectra warfare, Exterminaturs and purgation campaigns, extended independent void operations * Allegiance: Fidelitas Constantus Size: Just under 200,000 at start of HH; ~80,000 with Lion beyond imperial borders, the other ~120,000 spread out across the (dark corners) of the galaxy in contingents of ~5,000 each + Extensive arsenal of pre-Imperium technology and weaponry considered forbidden for any others to carry Fleet size: 300 Capital ships + 600 smaller ships at the battle of Sheol IX during the Thramas Campaign [FURTHER DATA NEEDED] Author's Note: I Legion's fleet contained vessels not found anywhere else, including nearly all of the ancient Terran-made Capital ships as well as large #s of Promethean class cruisers, Tiamat class destroyers, and other esoteric patterns of void craft. Most I Legion battle groups of ~1,000 Astartes were formed around a Gloriana or equivalent class ship, OP Note: ....which is impressive given that the biggest ship in most Legions' fleet was the personal flagship of the Primarch, which was a Gloriana class Original Candidate Pool(s): Francish plains, islands of Albia, Anatolic steppes, frozen Skandia, and "a dozen other cultures" Exemplary Battles/Analysis Hidden Content 1. Sealing of the Black Gate “The gates are open….” Cool bits about a part of space that is super spooky and has ancient watch stations re-manned by Imperial observers and the only message to escape is that opening line. Fast forward to the pre-Lion Dark Angels arriving shockingly quick (almost like they had been waiting for such a call) and before you know it, they’re basically battling Chthulu on this planet. Only though different specialists tagging in and out of the fight (Host of Pentacles, Host of Crown, Hosts of Iron, Hosts of Bone) are they able to adapt and get the precise tools and tactics in place at precisely the right times to defeat the tentacle porn ummm big scary squid thing. Only ~800/~5,000 DA survive the fight. OP: So this is supposed to show the first signs of Hexagrammaton, as well as the DA’s unwavering purpose; different hosts coming to the fore as needed. Basically showing how the First Legion is kind of multiple sub-legions all rolled up into one and they can adapt to different situations extremely quickly. Also starts the theme of the DA taking surprisingly high casualties, ones that might be more expected of the Iron Warriors or such in their fights. Does this mean they are callous and wasteful? Or that they are reserved for those threats so serious that massive casualties are to be expected yet they never waver from their mission? 2. The Battle of Advex-Mors First Rangda War Thought they were assaulting the Rangda homeworld/HQ….but wait, there’s more (2 more Rangda Wars) Rangda = “towering, brutally strong, weapons of terrible power” Takeaway: like Black Gate, but more pronounced: the DA’s ability to adapt and constantly switch tactics proves the deciding factor (only the DA can do this?), with proto-Ironwing taking the fore when needed, Host of Pentacles again being the secret weapon, proto-Deathwing/Companions able to escort the Pentacles to where they needed to be. The key here is not so much that they had all these different tools and capabilities, but they had the specialists in their ranks who would take command of as needed to get maximum leverage out of each toolset. It’d be like if you could pull out Rommel for a tank battle, then Nelson when you needed to fight a naval battle, McRaven for a night raid, and then Charlemagne for a 1:1 duel with the enemy commander. OP: Shows them using Combined Arms and switching up between the different elements of the Hexagramatton as needed. For me, the best part is getting some tiny hints about what exactly the Rangda are and what made them so dangerous (answer: they are spooky and use a high-low system of super-elites surrounded by endless hordes of cheap cannon fodder). I’m not entirely sure how I feel about getting more insight into the Rangda. On one hand I’m DYING to know more about them….on the other hand I agree with the authors and lore masters who say that the Rangda should be kept unknowable to us the audience since the idea of something SO scary—even by 30k/40k standards—that it must be wiped from history is pretty cool. It’s a be careful what you wish for thing…..I was DYING to know who the Space Jockey in “Alien” was and then we got “Prometheus…….” Aside: The Barbarian and the Knight: Dulan “Indeed, it has often been noted that the two Primarchs, Lion El’Jonson and Leman Russ, were of much the same character, though they oft expressed it differently. Both were practical to their core, with little time for frivolity or the excesses of civilization. Both valued plain speaking over political necessity and judged men by the actions they took rather than the words they spoke. But above all, the two Primarchs placed the utmost value on loyalty, holding their oaths as iron bonds and reserving the deepest hate for those who would forsake a vow.” OP: Cool spin on that classic tale, and nice addendum to Chris Wraight’s The Lion Primarchs novella. 3. Siege of Mykona Emperor’s Children force led by a Command Paitux are besieging a world whose defenders consist of hordes of cannon fodder backed by super-elite troops*. The EC are winning until the bad guys deploy some sort of uber-void shield that renders all Imperial weapons completely useless and changes momentum enough that the EC are decimated and pushed back to a last-ditch foothold ala the Pusan Perimeter**. Enter the Lion leading a Dark Angels force. They reinforce the EC and push the enemy back into hiding within their void bubble thing. Nothing works to bring down the shield, until the Ironing pull out an archaic graviton cannon thingy that manages to collapse a section of the bubble just long enough for a suicide-run Ravenwing unit to blast through and go after the shield generator. The Ravenwing, led by Lieutenant Mordwen, prove successful yet are trapped deep behind enemy lines and are cut to ribbons as they make their last stand. The Lion leads the DA in slaughtering the foe now that the shield is down, and the EC led by Paitux launch their own suicide run to reinforce the trapped Ravenwing until the Lion and friends can finish the job. Only a handful of both Ravenwing and EC survive. The Lion looks at Paitux and then without a word returns to orbit and its implied they take the remnants of the enemy super-shield generator with them. Paitux is stunned: no rebuke, no analysis, no gratitude, no comment whatsoever from the Primarch of the First. Mordwen, the RW Lieutenant tells him: “I served the Lion for many years before I earned his trust enough to be given charge of the battlefield in his absence, and here he has offered you that trust after a single battle. IFrom him that is high praise indeed.” OP: Yet another example of Combined Arms warfare specialization and super-special-secret tech in the hands of the Fist Legion. And man, the Lion really pushes the “I taught you self-reliance” form of fatherhood to the extremes, huh? *the number of “high-low” enemy forces faced in the Great Crusade is quite staggering….lazy writing or something more devious? ** https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Pusan_Perimeter 4. Pride of Conquerors Simultaneous to Istvaan III, a strike force of Sons of Horus goes to Rangda where a contingent of Dark Angels has kept perpetual watch since the end of the Third Xenocide. The SoH enter as friends, but as soon as their Stormbirds touch down, they launch a surprise attack quickly overwhelming everything but the Astropathic Relay (considered a low priority for the first wave, this far out-system) and the Hall of Cross and Bone where Deathwing Cenobites stood vigil over the dread relics, weapons, and artifacts left from the unspeakable wars against the Rangda. 40 Justarean assault the Hall, but all lose their lives against 12 Cenobites…the Deathwing claim a kill ratio of 40:9, with the last 3 Cenobites dying one at a time as they fend off wave after wave of SoH. Though the SoH are able to capture the terrible weapons from the Hall, the time and resources they have to divert to the Hall allowed the Astropathic Relay to summon the patrol craft of the DA to return to Rangda and harass the SoH strike fleet, claiming the The DA then hound this force of SoH for years to come, making the SoH’s victory a Pyrrhic one at best. Analysis: Essentially this is supposed to show the Deathwing OP: So this is one of my least favorite exemplary battles. Perhaps its the writing of the fact that it’s a pretty short entry, but it feels like fanboyism more than the normally exemplary (har har) anecdotes told in these sections. The idea is to show that the DA are not to be trifled with, and can go toe-to-toe with anyone, but it just comes off weird, IMHO. I think it comes down to the fact that 12 Cenobites defeat forty Justarean and it’s just kind of portrayed as “yea no big deal.” I think if there was a bit more exposition and meat to it, showing us how they were able to do that, then it would come off much much better. I guess it was supposed to show the Deathwing Rite of War “UnBroken Vow” in action? II [DATA MISSING] III The Emperor’s Children Observed Strategic Tendencies: Combined Arms Warfare, the use of complex maneuver and discursive tactical planning, Asymmetrical Assault Allegiance: Traitoris Perdita Size: 110,000 (~50,000 after Isstvan III; 20,000 Traitor casualties mentioned) [FURTHER DATA NEEDED] Fleet: [DATA NEEDED] Original candidate Pool(s): Courts and vassal populations of Europa. Youth from the nobles of Europa. IV Iron Warriors Observed Strategic Tendencies: Siege Warfare, Co-ordinated Mass-theatre Warfare, Armoured Assault, Planetary decimation, Attrition, Retribution and counter-insurgency campaigns Allegiance: Traitoris Perdita Size: 150,000-180,00 at outbreak of HH, though that is after losing ~1/5 of its forces to the Hrud, thus giving a peak size of 180,000-216,000 + remarkable recruitment and implantation program + significant Mechanicum/Legion Cybernetica attached groups + Thorakata auxiliaries, highly trained and capable human army Fleet: 100 Capital + “very substantial” warfleet Original candidate Pool(s): Gun-tribes, blood grieves and Tek-enclaves of the Auro Plateau of Sek-Amrak and surrounding areas V White Scars Observed Strategic Tendencies: Shock Assault strikes, Highly mobile hit and run campaigns and extended unsupported operations within hostile domains Allegiance: Fidelitas Scindo Size: 95,000 Author's Note: Mostly widely spread, with only the IV having more attachments to various fleets and posts. Fleet: * 472 Capital*, 600 support sent to Chondax FURTHER DATA NEEDED on non-Chondax assets Original candidate Pool(s): Technomadic tribes of the Thulean basin. Wide dispersion VI Space Wolves Special Note: 1/3 of the Trefoil Legions Observed Strategic Tendencies: Shock Assault, Search and Destroy, Pursuit Operations, Punitive and Excoriation Campaigns Allegiance: Fidelitas Sine Recursu Size: ~100,000 (at time of Burning of Prospero); ~75,000 sent to Prospero; previous peak of 130,000 Fleet: 60 Capital; ~240 strike/Support. Heavy proportion of augmented frigates for independent operations Original candidate pool(s): All over, screened for hyper aggression (similar to XII) VII Imperial Fists Observed Strategic Tendencies: Ship-borne assaults and boarding actions, Defensive and Fortification Operations In Extremis, Stronghold Assaults, the Conquest and Forced Compliance of void-fairing civilizations Allegiance: Fidelitas Totalis Size: ~98,000+ Fleet: 1,500+ including the largest proportionate # of Capital ships OP's note: Definitively the largest fleet of all Legions (except for the possible secret fleets kept by the XVII and XX); see below) Original candidate pools: All across Terra, selected for endurance VIII Night Lords Observed Strategic Tendencies: Punitive actions, Decimations, Enforced Pacification, Terror Assaults, Psychological warfare Allegiance: Traitoris Perdita Size: 90,000-120,000 Fleet: 200 Capital ships and 600 escorts at the battle of Sheol IX during the Thramas Campaign [FURTHER DATA NEEDED] Original candidate Pool(s): Linked prison sinks of Terra IX Blood Angels Observed Strategic Tendencies: Orbital Drop operations, Shock Assault campaigns and macro-scale decapitation strikes. Prior to Sanguinius’ return, the IX Legion was instead more widely known for its use as a tool of attrition-based warfare in war zones otherwise considered too hazardous for normal operations Allegiance: Fidelitas Constantus Size: 120,000 consistently, accounting for casualties. Fleet: 300+ Capital, 600+ sub-Capital, mostly slower escort gun boats and few fast strike craft Author's Note: Capital ships included many heavy cruiser and battleships of various classes, and a high concentration of orbital assault craft with extended linear cannon, Drop Pod rails, or extended hangar bays Original Candidate Pool(s): The unwanted. The forgotten dregs of Terra from the rad soaked wastes, borderline Abhumans, and other candidates that would never be considered by other Legions. X Iron Hands Observed Strategic Tendencies: Armoured and High Intensity Warfare, Line Breaker attacks, Planetary Pacification and Suppression campaigns, Anti-materiel operations Allegiance: Fidelitas Constantus Size: 113,000 + disproportionately large amount of war gear, war materiel, and supply reserves Fleet: 100 Capital [FURTHER DATA NEEDED] Original candidate Pool(s): All over, but heavy recruitment from Qavatine Plate cities, former enemy blocs like Solis Stellax, and Old Albia. XI [DATA MISSING] XII World Eaters Observed Strategic Tendencies: Shock Assault, Planet-kill and Exterminatus operations, Close-quarters actions (Space hulk purgation, Boarding Operations, Linebreaker attacks, “Forlorn Hope” Objective Assaults) Allegiance: Traitoris Perdita Size: ~150,000 (~112,500 at Isstvan III: ~75,000 Traitor and ~37,500 Loyalist) Fleet: 60+ Capital [FURTHER DATA NEEDED] Original candidate pool(s): All over, screened for aggression and competitive nature (similar to VI) XIII Ultramarines Observed Strategic Tendencies: Mass Assault, Targeted Decimation, Planetary Interdiction, Liberation and Limited Theatre Compliance Campaigns Allegiance: Fidelitas Constantus Size: ~200,000. ~160,000 casualties at Calth OP's Note: I knew Calth was bad, but I did not realize it was that catastrophic. Damn. Fleet: 30-35 Capital ships, most fleet assets light strike cruisers and smaller battle barges. “Mid-tier” for total tonnage, far behind VII for total ships and behind XIV for Capital ships. Fleet assets are considered especially small given the disproportionately large # of Legionnaires in the XIII, having the noted status of being the largest Legion* + noted as having especially strong ties with Imperialis Armada, thus greatly making up for their deficit** OP's Note: *not counting for the secret buildup of the XVII and the possible hidden elements of the XX OP's Note: **essentially, out of necessity, the XIII outsourced most of its fleet needs to non-Astartes elements. In some ways this can be seen as a blessing in disguise in the long run since the relationships established out of need would allow the XIII to bounce back from the catastrophic damage of Calth better than any imagining Original candidate pool(s): All over Terra, but nicknamed the "Warborn" for mainly being drawn from cultures that resisted including the sub-equatorial maglev clans of Panpocro, the war families of the Paragon Enclave, the proud Miafrik Hive Oligarchhy, and the anthropophagi tribes of the Caucasus Wastes XIV Death Guard Observed Strategic Tendencies: Heavy Infantry Assault, Attritional Warfare, Hazard/Death Zone Warfare, Xenos Eradication and Purgation operations Allegiance: Traitoris Perdita Size: ~95,000 (~1/3 purged at Isstvan III, so ~63,400 remaining) + extensive arsenal of forbidden and Dark Age of Technology-tier weaponry. Competing claims as to whether they or the I Legion had more of this exotic weaponry. Fleet: 70 Capital, ~210 Strike/Support Original candidate Pool(s): Ancient and warlike clans of Old Albia XV Thousand Sons Observed Strategic Tendencies: Psychic Warfare, Precision Assaults, Misdirection, Lore Culling, Macro-Coordination Multi-Theatre Campaigns Allegiance: Traitoris Perdita OP's Note: Personally, I would have liked to see a more nuanced label here given the tragedy of the XV's story, but I suppose that's more than can be asked from an Imperial historian Size: 80,000-85,000 at time of Burning of Prospero (peak size) Fleet: 40 Capital, 120 strike and support OP Note: some reports of mounted psychic weaponry onboard their ships Original candidate pool(s): Archaemanid Empire, Enclaves of the Fire Lords of Oaus, Kashai Domain. XVI The Sons of Horus Observed Strategic Tendencies: Shock Assault, Harrowing Actions and Strategic Decapitation Strikes Allegiance: Traitoris Maximus Size: 130,000-170,000 by the time of Istvaan III. Approx 70,000-110,000 after Istvaan campaign Fleet: 100+ Capital ships and approx three times that number in escorts and cruisers Original Candidate Pool(s): The hunter clans of the Jutigran Bowl and the Samsatia sub-plate slums. Exemplary Battles/Analysis: Hidden Content 1. The First Pacification of Luna First battle “beyond the skies of Terra” fought by the Legiones Astartes. Selinar Gene Cults of Luna were equalled in craft only by the Emperor himself, and with the expansion into the Sol System and beyond approaching, the fledgling Imperium desperately needed the tech and resources of the Selinar. Waves of Ambassadors to Luna had been unceremoniously rebuffed until the last delegations were sent back to Terr as “still screaming soup of fused liquescent flesh.” Yet each envoy had also planted spies and mapped out strategic locations on Luna for the eventual assault. It came in combined forces of the VII, XIII, and XVI Legions. While the VII and XIII approached in void-shielded craft as the brute hammer the Selinar expected, the XVI had drifted ahead in unpowered vessels, sacrificing all systems and even lives to remain unnoticed, ice forming on the power-armored suits of the XVI Legion Astartes waiting inside. While the VII and XIII drew fire and attention, the XVI landed almost unnoticed and proceeded to cut apart the defense lasers and communications arrays with the Selinar in savage fashion. So swift and brutal was this surprise attack that “of the hundred or more cult leaders scattered across Luna most died without realizing they were under direct attack.” So vicious, swift, and decisive was this attack that the surviving leaders surrendered with a call to the Emperor stating “call off your wolves.” And with that, the Luna Wolves were born. OP: Yea, this is badass. Sets up the XVI as a particularly creative and vicious Legion that steals the limelight and initiative from its brethren, most especially the I Legion. And you can see how this aggressive nature is only catapulted by the charisma and skill of someone like Horus Lupercal. Shock Assault and Strategic Decapitation Strike 2. The Gorro Hollowing Orkz! Cool exposition about the nature of Orkz and how among all the countless types of kenos encountered by mankind throughout the millennia, none were as ultimately deadly or persistent as the greenskins, and the larger their concentration the more dangerous they are, and their leaders tend to grow in stature and brilliance as well. Though Ullanor gets the centerpiece in the Great Crusade, the Telon Reach was where the scrap empire of Gorro stood, and their tech-castes were particularly good with plasma technology. The main world of this empire was the key and only its destruction would end the threat, a threat so grave that the Emperor himself led the attack with Horus by his side. The tech of Gorro gave them forcefields and other stuff that meant only a direct assault (without orbital bombardment) would work and so spear tips of Luna Wolves led by Justarean went in fast and hard followed by Custodes. Gorro’s orkz were particularly big and armored and augmented in ways unseen by the Imperium up to that point. So intense was the fighting that the Emperor himself was cut off and surrounded and though he slew countless Orkz, the Ork leader seized the Emperor and lifted him off his feet, cracking the Emperor’s armor in his fist (must be a BIG boy to do that!) Horus comes to the rescue, slicing off the Ork warlord’s arm and then “father and son led their forces deeper and deeper into the sphere.” They cause the plasma technology to self-destruct, blowing a hole in time and space with only a vortex left to mark the Orkz of Gorro. OP: Ah, nothing like a little father-son bonding. Pretty straightforward little story, but a nice illustration of the now-classic “speartip” maneuver of the Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus as well. Also gives our first real taste of what the Emperor is like in combat. Also, I love how many little details the Black Books include about all the different flavors of Orkz the Great Crusade encounters. Really fleshes them out in ways we don’t really see in 40k. Shock Assault, Strategic Decapitation Strike 3. The Castigation of Terentius Terentius was an Imperial general whose conquests got the best of him. At first he conquered for the Imperium and in its name, but after a time he built himself a pocket empire and even started taking over already-compliant Imperial worlds. Horus is given command to deal with Terentius for “the manner of Imperial wrath had not just been to defeat Terentius, but to demonstrate to any others the inevitability of a betrayer’s defeat.” Yea, it doesn’t go well for Terentius. Horus pulls in “substantial” elements of the Night Lords, Iron Hands, and Alpha Legion as well as his Luna Wolves (not yet Sons of Horus) into a multilayered plan. First ships and dockyards deep into renegade territory are sabotaged and whole battle fleets go poof and other such calamities. Yet Terentius was “no fool” and he reformed his lines and supply chains to reduce vulnerabilities, but next he was greeted by ships arriving from all different sectors of his mini empire filled with nothing but piles upon piles of corpses, and the crews fused to their cheats with a message: “we have come for you.” Despite efforts to keep a lid on such horrors, there were too many arrivals and word spread and panic started to effect the morale and capabilities of the renegade forces. Next, Terentius’ strongholds came under direct attack by large Iron Hands contingents. But whenever he sent forces to counter-attack, the reinforcements were intercepted and ripped to pieces by Luna Wolves strike forces. And so as his supply lines were turned into charnel houses, his infrastructure collapsed around him, and his frontlines relented under the Iron Hands’ assault, Terentius knew what fate awaited him. The XVI Legion appeared suddenly and destroyed half Terentius’ command fleet in short work and Horus himself, along with his Justarean, teleported onto the flagship and left no one alive. It is said that Horus himself slew Terentius, though the rebel died laughing with no signs of remorse. And at this slight, Horus did not relent and the castigation continued even as the rebellion crumbled. The NL and IH and Ordo Reductor were brought in to decimate every world and vaporize every structure to ever bear Terentius’ mark on all his worlds. Teretius’ skull, dipped in gold, was sent to Terra with its courier declaring “so perish all traitors.” OP: This one is cool. It reads well and it does a great job showing both Horus’ deft command of multi-factional forces, using each to their strength as part of a plan, with both his Legion and his own self as the centerpieces. Of course it is glorious in its foreshadowing… Shock Assault, Harrowing XVII Word Bearers Strategic Tendencies: Mass Assault, Policing actions, Gnostic purgation, Suppression of ideological revolt Allegiance: Traitoris Maximus Size: 140,000* + estimated “millions” of vassal war bands and half-feral fanatics *on paper. However confirmed simultaneous operations demonstrate that they were well above that, likely larger than even the XIII Legion, making them perhaps the largest legion of all** OP's Note: **unless the Alpha Legion truly was even larger in the shadows Fleet: Several special Abyss class Capital ships + #’s thought to possibly exceed the Imperial Fists’ fleet (see * above under Size) [FURTHER DATA NEEDED] Original candidate pool(s): Sons of defeated foes. OP's Note: basically janissaries XVIII Salamanders Special Note: 2/3 of the Trefoil Legions Strategic Tendencies: High Intensity or Asymmetric warfare, Zone Mortalis engagements, Planetary interdiction, Liberation and defensive operations Allegiance: Fidelitas Totalis Size: 89,000 Fleet: [DATA NEEDED] Original candidate pool(s): [DATA NEEDED] XIX Raven Guard Strategic Tendencies: Rapid Deployment Operations, Strategic Interdiction Operations, Reconnaissance in Force, Guerilla Actions, Low-Collateral-damage imperative Compliance Operations Allegiance: Fidelitas Constantus Size: ~84,000: 80,000 Isstvan V + 1,000 Deliverance + 3,000 nomad predation fleets and attachments to Rogue Traders + Therion Cohort Fleet: [DATA NEEDED] Original candidate pool(s): Xeric tribes XX Alpha Legion Special Note: 3/3 of the Trefoil Legions Strategic Tendencies: Surprise Assault, Sabotage, Infiltration, Insurgency and Counter-Insurgency Warfare, Multi-Vector Attack, Interplanetary Pursuit and Decimation Campaigns, and Deep Range Raiding Allegiance: Traitoris Perdita Size: Most estimates put them at 120,000-130,000, though they range from 90,000-180,000* + excessive amounts of modern wargear and plasma, conversion, and other esoteric weaponry Fleet: “Extensive and diverse fleet” though lacking in heavy craft. Plethora of intermediate and escort craft favoring speed and range + suspected captured xenos craft* OP's Note: *Throughout their section, it is strongly implied that the XX Legion has assets well above and beyond the official counting, to the point that the author indirectly wonders if they are in fact that largest Legion both in men and materiel Original candidate pool(s): [DATA MISSING] Notes on formatting: OP = Original Poster, aka me. So when I put "OP's Notes" those are my own comments and markup Author = in-setting author(s) of the Black Books. Important to distinguish from OP since these bits are official source material and often deliberately used to make something speculative or to tell us something without actually telling us something DATA NEEDED = unknown to the OP, asking for help filling in DATA MISSING = information deliberately redacted in-universe to evoke mystery and speculation on the part of the readers All #'s for Legion size and fleet are as listed in the Black Books, so the fact that they do not match-up apples-to-apples may be deliberate. For example, some mention size only at a particular moment in time (i.e. Istvaan III) while others list their average size over the course of the GC, and so forth. I have done my best to include what hard #'s are to be found, regardless of what point in the timeline those #'s are mentioned to at least attempt as close to a 1:1 comparison as possible Reference: Gothic Terminology for Allegiance classification Trefoil Legions Fun speculation on how pre-unification Terra locations map to current day locations Select Primarch information (COMING SOON) Legion Homeworld information (COMING SOON) Analysis of Legion Exemplary Battles (IN PROGRESS with v3.0, Assistance requested) Legion Fiefdoms (POSSIBLY COMING) Allied Titan Legions (POSSIBLY COMING, Assistance requested) Exploration of military terminologies as it relates to Legion Specializations Hidden Content OP Note: Not every term listed with the Legions above is covered here; these are select terms believed worth further delving into. Many others are considered self-explanatory or--to be frank--too boring to elaborate on here. Deeper dives into those not listed below upon request. Anti-Material Iron HandsA term that was probably picked due to sounding cool. There are not really “anti material” military operations because, by its destructive nature, almost all warfare could be considered “anti material.” That being said, I believe the intent by FW here is to focus on a specific slice of the pie, and in this case my belief is that what they are aiming for is most likely along the lines of “Hard Target Interdiction” (HTI) : “Hard Target Interdiction is defined as the interdiction or strike on a hardened target (vehicles, communication system, radar system, etc.) by means of a precision large caliber long-range weapons fire.” (see citation below). Extrapolated and put into context of the Legiones Astartes, I believe the intent here is to show a force capable and adept of taking out hardened enemies from a distance. The last word is the operative one there since it distinguishes the force from others, such as the World Eaters, who specialize in “forlorn hope” assaults, or the Iron Warriors whose mastery of siege warfare encompasses a spectrum of tactics and equipment with the end effect being greater than their sum. In essence, this means a specialization in Big Guns (that never tire). Hard Target Interdiction (White Paper) by Michael Haugen: https://usarmorment.com/pdf/DA%202005.03MH.pdf Asymmetric Warfare: Emperor's Children ("Asymmetrical Assault") Salamanders David vs Goliath. When the perceived power between two combatants is lopsided. There are multiple sub-categories for this, but for the purposes of the Legion Astartes specializations one has to wonder if it refers to a Legion being the David or the Goliath. Given the two Legions listed (III and XVIII), I would have to think they are good at being the “Davids” in the analogy. Opens up a whole spectrum of questions, to be tackled at a different time. Link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asymmetric_warfare Attrition Warfare Iron Warriors Blood Angels (Pre-Sanguinius) Death Guard Warfare designed to wear the enemy down through sustained casualties and destruction. “Stacking bodies” in some circles. Arguably the oldest and simplest form of warfare where each side aims to have more bodies or bullets than the other side does and use that brute advantage to achieve victory. The key to winning battles of attrition reside in logistics (having more stuff and getting it to where it is needed faster and more reliably) and psychological resolve. Combined Arms Dark Angels* Emperor’s Children Using multiple types of forces together, often under a single commander. Most “big” modern military operations fall into this category, but like other items in this list, nuances are key. At the risk of using another US-centric example, I would position it thusly. The US Air Force has planes that fight in the sky, the US Army has tanks and infantry that fight on the ground, and the US Navy has ships that fight on (and under) the sea. The US Marine Corps combines all of these elements together (most often) under a single commander. That single commander is thus able to direct “organic” assets of all types together to achieve a single mission. In a business context, this would be the difference between having dedicated Finance, HR, Sales, Customer Service, IT etc… departments that each focus on their given field vs having essentially customer facing teams that do Sales and Service and then Admin staff that juggle between Finance, IT, and other support functions as needed. There are pros and cons to both models, though effectiveness, especially at scale, is hotly debated. Non-Combined Arms warfare: “your planes need to support my infantry riding in Bob’s trucks” Combined Arms warfare: “my infantry, planes, and trucks all report to me directly” Decapitation Blood Angels ("Macro-scale Decapitation Strikes") Sons of Horus ("Strategic Decapitation Strikes") Decapitation operations are fairly straightforward: go for the enemy’s head(quarters). Cut off the head and the body withers, as the expression goes. The “Macro-scale” part here is interesting because it suggests that rather than sending a lone assassin or assassination team, a full-scale military operation is used to achieve the same effect. Essentially “assassinating” the capital of a world, not just its governor. Decimation Iron Warriors ("Planetary Decimation") Night Lords Ultramarines ("Targeted Decimation") Alpha Legion ("Interplanetary Pursuit and Decimation Campaigns") Another one that can stray into….uncomfortable….historical territory. However, in short, my belief is that FW’s intention was to signify military operations that are selective in nature. I.e. minimizing collateral damage or civilian casualties, or preserving resources for future use in some way. It gets awkward because decimation has had two divergent definitions over the years: 1. reducing something by one-tenth, aka the Roman practice of killing 1/10 soldiers to collectively punish the unit 2. large-scale destruction of an area or group, especially in regards to flora and fauna; i.e. the decimation of a rainforest from logging or farming. While this could go either way, my gut says that FW is implying the first definition, so a sort of selective warfare meant to achieve an enemy’s surrender more than his annihilation. Discursive Emperor's ChildrenAnother one with a cool sounding name that is hard to actually pin down real world equivalents. Here’s my take: Planning multiple objectives; missions in depth. Not just “take that hill then await orders,” but rather “take that hill, provide fire support, then cross the river, take the port, burn to the ground, sweep the cornfields, then take townhall. If resistance is light, proceed instead to xyz to support abc.” Excoriation Space Wolves ("Punitive and Excoriation Campaigns")Another fun one where actual definitions get a bit weird. To excoriate means one of the following: 1. to “censure or criticize severely.” 2. to damage or remove part of the surface of the skin The first definition is clear, given FW/BL’s love of the term “censure” to mean “beating the snot out of.” But other terms are already used as classifications, such as Punitive, Subjugation, Police Actions, etc… So my interpretation of this actually extrapolates the second definition. But rather than used to mean “skinning” like the Night Lords would do, I take this to mean symbolic strikes that remove a layer of the opponent, but otherwise leave them intact. I get the mental image of (Space Wolves) boarding orbital defenses or the outer walls of a citadel, planting melta bombs, and destroying them, then leaving. The implicit message is clear: “this was your one warning. There will not be another.” Gnostic Purgation Word Bearers….so this one I am not going to provide any links to, since it is a bit tricky. Because it strays into real-world history, religions, and religious history…yea nothing controversial with any of that. To keep it as simple and pertinent as possible, the dictionary definition of “gnostic” is relating to knowledge, especially esoteric mystical knowledge. Since it’s never a good sign when one definition requires another definition to explain it, “esoteric” refers to knowledge that is highly specialized or likely to only be understood or known by a small group of people. “The esoteric nature of medical billing codes.” Where it gets awkward is the Gnosticism (capitalized) is an actual historical religions with much controversy surrounding it and others’ actions towards it. It would be highly awkward for FW to specifically refer to that historical group. Rather, I would like to think that FW is using it as a stylized way of saying information that the Imperium finds dangerous or directly counter to its own designs. Harrowing Sons of HorusThe definition of this is something that is acutely distressing or painful. Though I don’t know of any actual military usage of the term, I believe its a stylized attempt by FW to refer to harassment tactics*, mostly commonly “harassing fire.” Essentially pot shots meant to keep the enemy from sleeping or keep his head down so that he can’t actually see what’s going on. It is meant to be more annoying and disruptive to an enemy’s psyche and day-to-day operations than to be actually destructive to his forces. Interesting historical note: “Washing Machine Charlie” or “Bedcheck Charlie” was a term used by Allied forces in the Pacific for Japanese fighter planes (typically operating alone, at night) that would strafe with machines guns before flying off; often little actual damage was done to prepared positions, yet the noise and need to react in some way would slow down or even stop operations at the target area for some time. Further analysis provided by @Sandlemad: "Harrowing: I think the harassment point is good but I'd tie this to stuff like William the Conqueror's Harrowing of the North ('harrying' seems about as common a use). Basically we're talking chevauchée, "a raiding method of medieval warfare for weakening the enemy, primarily by burning and pillaging enemy territory in order to reduce the productivity of a region, as opposed to siege warfare or wars of conquest". Destroy the support network behind the enemy's military by targeting civilians and infrastructure before eventually, if necessary, bringing the weakened foe to battle. It's brutal, there's an aspect of targeting morale and discrediting the enemy's leadership or administration, it spreads terror and chaos, and it lines up with the Alpha Legion's MO. It's not fantastic if you want much of a useful territory left as a prize, which is why it was so reprehensible to Dorn and Guilliman." *not to be confused with workplace harassment High Intensity Iron Hands ("Armoured and High Intensity Warfare") Salamanders Low Intensity warfare (or irregular warfare) is often marked by skirmishes, assassination attempts, and lightly equipped combatants. Its opposite, High Intensity warfare is what some would just call “war.” Full-sized armies and the industrial capability of nations fully deployed to defeat the enemy. It is somewhat of an awkward term to define, especially in the real world for this reason. However, I would posit that FW’s intention in using this term is to show conflicts where it is not just the numbers of forces involved, but the proportions of each side that is committed to the conflict. Factors such as logistics, supply, and rehabilitation become exponentially more important, arguably more so than the results on the front lines. In (US) military terms this would be called “up tempo” operations: the pace of battle is fast and for an extended period of time. If attrition warfare is a marathon, and shock attack is a 100m sprint, then High Intensity warfare is worst of both worlds where combatants are expected to go “all out” for as long as possible until one side gives. In athletic terms, this would be a “to exhaustion” exercise, where the motion does not stop until the participant simply ceases to be able to physically continue. Given the Legion specializing in this form of conflict, is it any wonder that their motto became “the flesh is weak?” In Extremis Imperial FistsLatin translation is “in the farthest reaches” or “at the point of death.” The US DoD defines it as: “A situation of such exceptional urgency that immediate action must be taken to minimize imminent loss of life or catastrophic degradation of the political or military situation.” In the US military lens, it has most often been used in a Special Operations context, primarily with the addendum “Hostage Rescue In Extremis;” basically counter-terror operations on airplanes (hijackings) and going deep into enemy territory to spring prisoners (see example below). The second use is CIF (Commanders-In extremis-Force) which is basically a quick reaction force designed to respond to particularly dire circumstances (embassy takeovers, etc…) in theater of operation. So in the context of the Legion involved (Imperial Fists) this is stated as being “Defensive and Fortification Operations In Extremis.” Given the real-world context, and the Legion’s other specialities, I interpret this as being independent companies or chapters who are able to rapidly deploy to far off places and secure and hold them for extended periods of time. This could be plugging in gaps in a line, securing a flank that is unexpectedly unprotected, or creating a staging point far behind enemy lines. TL;DR: it’s Imperial Fists being Imperial Fists. Rescue of Jessica Buchanan and Pool Hagen Thisted: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rescue_of_Jessica_Buchanan_and_Poul_Hagen_Thisted Interdiction Ultramarines ("Planetary Interdiction") Salamanders ("Planetary Interdiction") Raven Guard ("Strategic Interdiction Operations") Interdiction is intercepting, disrupting, preventing something going from A to B. Easiest to conceptualize as a blockade, but interdiction is much broader than that. Interdiction can at once be raiding or piracy if you will, but it can also be Maritime interdiction in the modern sense most often refers to anti-piracy operations or ship inspections. Air interdiction usually refers to air strikes behind enemy lines meant to disrupt supply lines or destroy enemy forces not currently engaged in fighting. In contrast to strategic bombing which is traditionally large bomber aircraft taking out vital facilities en masse, air interdiction is done by small fighter craft against more tactical assets. Link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interdiction Linebreaker Iron Hands World Eaters Could be considered an alternative term for “shock attack” (see above), but I believe FW’s attempt to differentiate is deliberate. In this case, I believe they are referring to a focus on achieving strategic breakthroughs. Essentially driving a wedge into the enemy’s lines in a decisive manner. It differs from shock attack in that a breakthrough is meant to hold the ground it takes, to form a permanent gap in the enemy lines that others can exploit and thus new lines of battle are drawn. Shock attack, in contrast, is above moving “through” the enemy ad infinitum. Maneuver warfare: Emperor's ChildrenOften considered the “alternative” to Attrition Warfare. Sometimes positioned thus: Attrition Warfare seeks out enemy strongholds and destroys them head on, removing the biggest threats first. Maneuver Warfare avoids enemy strongholds, focusing on weak points and vulnerable “soft” areas first, intending to starve out the enemy and preserve one’s own strength above all else. A historical example would be the Chinese civil war of the 1950’s, where the Nationalist Kuomingtang Government had the advantage in equipment and tech and controlled the cities and industrial areas. The Communists under Mao Zedong had the advantage in numbers and controlled the farms and countryside. What developed was a conflict where the Communists couldn’t hope to breach the cities head-on, but the Nationalists could not leave the cities to attack the Communists because Mao’s forces would simply run away and then attack vulnerable rear areas or harass the Nationalist forces as they plodded along. In essence, the very strengths of the Nationalist forces (large, heavily equipped and armed, overlapping armies) proved to also be its weaknesses due to the way Mao was able to flow around them like water, thus ultimately winning that conflict. Destroying the enemy’s ability to fight = Attrition Warfare. Destroying the enemy’s will to fight = Maneuver Warfare. Punitive Space Wolves Night Lords ˆChildren who don’t listen have to be spanked.” -Chinese leader Deng Xiaoping before the 1978 invasion of Vietnam by China. Simply put, military operations designed to punish an opponent. While one could cynically ask “isn’t all war punishment?” to the receiver, where Punitive operations differ from other forms of warfare is mainly in the goal. Rather than not take and hold territory or other political gains, a punitive operation is design to hurt the opponent in some way shape or form, most often through the destruction or removal of select materials, facilities or equipment. The easiest example for me to wrap my head around is the Pancho Villa Expedition of 1916 in Mexico. Pancho Villa was a bandit-cum-rebel-leader who launched raids over the border into the United States. The US grew tired of both Villa’s actions and the Mexican government’s inability or unwillingness to prevent Villa from continuing in his ways. They thus launched a military expedition into Mexico to put a stop to Villa’s antics. What is to be emphasized is that the US forces were not there to annex territory or damage Mexican infrastructure in any way, but rather to carry out the specific limited goal of stopping Villa and his followers (….and of course, anyone who got in their way….) Pursuit Operations: Space Wolves Alpha Legion ("Interplanetary Pursuit and Decimation Campaigns") This link talks about it better than I ever could. https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/3-90/ch7.htm Reconnaissance in Force: Raven GuardScouting with tanks. Essentially sending scouting parties that are large enough and equipped enough to either engage the enemy on his own terms or deliberately provoke the enemy into attacking…thus revealing the enemy’s position and/or capabilities. So it doesn’t actually have to be tanks, but the point is that rather than a couple lightly armed dudes who rely on stealth to gather intelligence and then bug out when things get hairy, these guys stay and fight and even up the ante to see what the enemy’s got. Link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reconnaissance#Reconnaissance-in-force Search and Destroy Space WolvesWalking around lookin’ fer a fight. Patrolling an area with the intention of either discovering enemies to be eliminated, or goading them into attacking so that they can be destroyed. It is operations designed to kill the enemy above all else, seeking him out wherever he may be and not stopping until he is dead. Real world results of this strategy vary. Shock Assault: White Scars Space Wolves Blood Angels ("Shock Assault Campaigns") World Eaters Sons of Horus This one might seem obvious, but its nuance makes it intriguing. In essence, a “Shock Attack” or the use of “Shock Troops” is an attempt to overwhelm the enemy through sheer speed, aggression, and psychological effect so that the effect of the attack is ultimately greater than the logistics of the attack itself. It’s opposite would be Attrition Warfare, which is like a boxing match where the participants are meant to take as many blows as they dish out and whoever is left standing wins. Shock (Assault) in contrast is more like Liam Neeson throat chopping bad guys in Taken: the idea is to utterly neutralize the enemy as quickly and decisively as possible with the least resources needed. While the concept has been in use since time immortal, the term “shock” really came about in World War 1 where—in stark contrast to the static and sweeping nature of trench warfare—small groups of highly trained and motivated troops would maneuver to maximize the element of surprise in order to cut through enemy defenses and keep going. That last part is key, since taking and holding ground was not the goal so much as the disruption to enemy formations and the ability to penetrate deep into enemy lines…the depth of the penetration was often more useful for crushing enemy morale then any actual ground taken or men or material neutralized. It is similar to the German doctrine of Blitzkrieg, but that is more of a high-level national strategy while this is a bit more on the battlefield or tactical level. Link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shock_troops Zone Mortalis SalamandersAn in-setting term (seriously, you haven’t heard of it yet? Do you even 40k bro?) referring to “in extremis” terrain or battlefields, most often referring to shipboard assaults or other highly confined environments that raise the lethality of engagements to exponential levels. Link: https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Zone_Mortalis Credits: Thanks to the following for the assistance in filling in gaps: @Sandlemad @StrangerOrders @Beren Version: Hidden Content 3.0: added "Exemplary Battles/Analysis" for I and XVI Legions (20 Jan 2021) 2.2: added further info to Harrowing, added "Combined Arms" and "In Extremis" under "Exploration" section 2.1: added which Legions fall into which category under the "Exploration of military terminology as it relates to Legion Specializations" section 2.0: added "Exploration of military terminology as it relates to Legion Specializations" 1.1: added notes to several Legion entries based on input from the above 1.0: launch EDIT: Formatting Edited January 20, 2021 by Indefragable Deadass, Petitioner's City, Loquille and 7 others 10 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/366645-grand-catalog-of-the-legiones-astartes-during-the-gc-v30/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandlemad Posted September 22, 2020 Share Posted September 22, 2020 Looks good! A few notes on gaps to be filled below. I legion - recruitment was from the Francish plains, islands of Albia, Anatolic steppes, frozen Skandia, “a dozen other cultures”. Also for 'observed strategic tendencies', I'd note that FW previously stated that they were "Combined arms and multi-spectra warfare, Exterminatus and purgation campaigns, extended independent void operations". Obviously for Crusade they replaced this with the text you used, to emphasise the jack-of-all-trades nature of the first but to be honest I think the earlier desctiption still fits as well? It lines up perfectly with how their war-practices are described in Crusade and might be worth including alongside the current description. IV legion - recruitment was from "gun-tribes, blood grieves and Tek-enclaves" of the Auro Plateau of Sek-Amrak and surrounding areas (these were early recruits, if not the very first) X legion - you mentioned the Thorakata auxiliaries for the IVth and the Therion cohorts for the XIXth, would it be worth adding the Chainveil here? Imperial army troops inducted into the X legion auxilia. XIII legion - recruitment was from across Terra, from the cultures that resisted the most including "the sub-equatorial maglev clans of Panpocro, the war families of the Saragon Enclave, the proud Midafrik Hive Oligarchy, and [...] the anthropophagic tribes of the Caucasus Wastes" XVI legion - recruitment was initially "the hunter clans of the Jutigran Bowl and the Samsatian sub-plate slums" Indefragable and StrangerOrders 2 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/366645-grand-catalog-of-the-legiones-astartes-during-the-gc-v30/#findComment-5605863 Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangerOrders Posted September 22, 2020 Share Posted September 22, 2020 (edited) Ravenguard Original Intake: Xeric Tribes. Ultramarines: Their 'Warborn' nickname is a result of being drawn from the most intransigent peoples of Terra, implied to have been a final measure by the Emp to prevent their rising again. Particular note is the Saragon Enclaves, Panpocro Mag-Lev Clans, Caucasus Waste Tribes and Midafrik Oligarchies. Sons of Horus: 130-170k by Istvaan 3, 70-110k after that. 100+ Capital Ships and approx three times that number in Escorts and Cruisers. They supposedly originate from the Samsatian Sub-Plate Slums and the hunter-clans of the Jutigran Bowl. Salamanders: No notes on their pool, Their fleet is just noted to not be large. Dark Angels: Teetering on 'better than everyone else' their fleet is noted to outsize even the Fists by a considerable margin with a Gloriana or equivalent vessel forming the core of most battle groups (these rarely numbering more than thousand Astartes, so there were alot of these). Deathguard: Conflicting claims with the DAngels over who has the most forbidden DAoT arsenals and ancient or unique warships. Thousand Sons: Worth adding that they might have mounted psychic weapons on them according to AK. Edited September 22, 2020 by StrangerOrders Indefragable 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/366645-grand-catalog-of-the-legiones-astartes-during-the-gc-v30/#findComment-5605865 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beren Posted September 22, 2020 Share Posted September 22, 2020 The Night Lords fleet at the battle of Sheol IX consisted of 200 capital ships and three times that of escorts, while the Dark Angels fleet at the battle was 300 capital ships and twice that of smaller ships. Indefragable 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/366645-grand-catalog-of-the-legiones-astartes-during-the-gc-v30/#findComment-5605870 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indefragable Posted September 23, 2020 Author Share Posted September 23, 2020 Hidden Content Looks good! A few notes on gaps to be filled below. I legion - recruitment was from the Francish plains, islands of Albia, Anatolic steppes, frozen Skandia, “a dozen other cultures”. Also for 'observed strategic tendencies', I'd note that FW previously stated that they were "Combined arms and multi-spectra warfare, Exterminatus and purgation campaigns, extended independent void operations". Obviously for Crusade they replaced this with the text you used, to emphasise the jack-of-all-trades nature of the first but to be honest I think the earlier desctiption still fits as well? It lines up perfectly with how their war-practices are described in Crusade and might be worth including alongside the current description. IV legion - recruitment was from "gun-tribes, blood grieves and Tek-enclaves" of the Auro Plateau of Sek-Amrak and surrounding areas (these were early recruits, if not the very first) X legion - you mentioned the Thorakata auxiliaries for the IVth and the Therion cohorts for the XIXth, would it be worth adding the Chainveil here? Imperial army troops inducted into the X legion auxilia. XIII legion - recruitment was from across Terra, from the cultures that resisted the most including "the sub-equatorial maglev clans of Panpocro, the war families of the Saragon Enclave, the proud Midafrik Hive Oligarchy, and [...] the anthropophagic tribes of the Caucasus Wastes" XVI legion - recruitment was initially "the hunter clans of the Jutigran Bowl and the Samsatian sub-plate slums" Appreciate the assist. I think I just forgot to jot down the Ultramarine origins since I definitely remember reading that. Great tip on the previous "Strategic Tendencies" notes for the Dark Angels Hidden Content Ravenguard Original Intake: Xeric Tribes. Ultramarines: Their 'Warborn' nickname is a result of being drawn from the most intransigent peoples of Terra, implied to have been a final measure by the Emp to prevent their rising again. Particular note is the Saragon Enclaves, Panpocro Mag-Lev Clans, Caucasus Waste Tribes and Midafrik Oligarchies. Sons of Horus: 130-170k by Istvaan 3, 70-110k after that. 100+ Capital Ships and approx three times that number in Escorts and Cruisers. They supposedly originate from the Samsatian Sub-Plate Slums and the hunter-clans of the Jutigran Bowl. Salamanders: No notes on their pool, Their fleet is just noted to not be large. Dark Angels: Teetering on 'better than everyone else' their fleet is noted to outsize even the Fists by a considerable margin with a Gloriana or equivalent vessel forming the core of most battle groups (these rarely numbering more than thousand Astartes, so there were alot of these). Deathguard: Conflicting claims with the DAngels over who has the most forbidden DAoT arsenals and ancient or unique warships. Thousand Sons: Worth adding that they might have mounted psychic weapons on them according to AK. Where did you get the #'s for the Sons of Horus? I'm curious since I combined Book 1: Massacre for those details and remember coming up short and being frustrated about it. The Night Lords fleet at the battle of Sheol IX consisted of 200 capital ships and three times that of escorts, while the Dark Angels fleet at the battle was 300 capital ships and twice that of smaller ships. Good call. I must have glazed over that part in the Thramas Campaign section of Book 9: Crusade. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/366645-grand-catalog-of-the-legiones-astartes-during-the-gc-v30/#findComment-5605952 Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangerOrders Posted September 23, 2020 Share Posted September 23, 2020 Hidden Content Looks good! A few notes on gaps to be filled below. I legion - recruitment was from the Francish plains, islands of Albia, Anatolic steppes, frozen Skandia, “a dozen other cultures”. Also for 'observed strategic tendencies', I'd note that FW previously stated that they were "Combined arms and multi-spectra warfare, Exterminatus and purgation campaigns, extended independent void operations". Obviously for Crusade they replaced this with the text you used, to emphasise the jack-of-all-trades nature of the first but to be honest I think the earlier desctiption still fits as well? It lines up perfectly with how their war-practices are described in Crusade and might be worth including alongside the current description. IV legion - recruitment was from "gun-tribes, blood grieves and Tek-enclaves" of the Auro Plateau of Sek-Amrak and surrounding areas (these were early recruits, if not the very first) X legion - you mentioned the Thorakata auxiliaries for the IVth and the Therion cohorts for the XIXth, would it be worth adding the Chainveil here? Imperial army troops inducted into the X legion auxilia. XIII legion - recruitment was from across Terra, from the cultures that resisted the most including "the sub-equatorial maglev clans of Panpocro, the war families of the Saragon Enclave, the proud Midafrik Hive Oligarchy, and [...] the anthropophagic tribes of the Caucasus Wastes" XVI legion - recruitment was initially "the hunter clans of the Jutigran Bowl and the Samsatian sub-plate slums" Appreciate the assist. I think I just forgot to jot down the Ultramarine origins since I definitely remember reading that. Great tip on the previous "Strategic Tendencies" notes for the Dark Angels Hidden Content Ravenguard Original Intake: Xeric Tribes. Ultramarines: Their 'Warborn' nickname is a result of being drawn from the most intransigent peoples of Terra, implied to have been a final measure by the Emp to prevent their rising again. Particular note is the Saragon Enclaves, Panpocro Mag-Lev Clans, Caucasus Waste Tribes and Midafrik Oligarchies. Sons of Horus: 130-170k by Istvaan 3, 70-110k after that. 100+ Capital Ships and approx three times that number in Escorts and Cruisers. They supposedly originate from the Samsatian Sub-Plate Slums and the hunter-clans of the Jutigran Bowl. Salamanders: No notes on their pool, Their fleet is just noted to not be large. Dark Angels: Teetering on 'better than everyone else' their fleet is noted to outsize even the Fists by a considerable margin with a Gloriana or equivalent vessel forming the core of most battle groups (these rarely numbering more than thousand Astartes, so there were alot of these). Deathguard: Conflicting claims with the DAngels over who has the most forbidden DAoT arsenals and ancient or unique warships. Thousand Sons: Worth adding that they might have mounted psychic weapons on them according to AK. Where did you get the #'s for the Sons of Horus? I'm curious since I combined Book 1: Massacre for those details and remember coming up short and being frustrated about it. The Night Lords fleet at the battle of Sheol IX consisted of 200 capital ships and three times that of escorts, while the Dark Angels fleet at the battle was 300 capital ships and twice that of smaller ships. Good call. I must have glazed over that part in the Thramas Campaign section of Book 9: Crusade. Betrayal near the end of the SoH asset breakdown, although I would note that even AK is a bit iffy on those numbers. He even makes the point that aside from obvious obfuscation, Horus had basically destroyed the hierarchy of the Legion to such a point that only he could really make heads or tails of it. I've made the point the Horus basically eroded the sixteenth into a barbarian horde before but boy is that section fun in watching that devolution eventually end with AK more or less going 'look man, I cant make heads or tails of this stuff either'. Pg. 79 if you want confirmation. Indefragable and Gederas 2 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/366645-grand-catalog-of-the-legiones-astartes-during-the-gc-v30/#findComment-5605960 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MegaVolt87 Posted September 23, 2020 Share Posted September 23, 2020 (edited) Probably more work, BUT what about adding a known allies list with external non legion forces like knight houses + Titan legions, forgeworlds etc? Would help people out wanting allies from different factions in HH and 40k. EDIT- here I will help. According to my notes The Iron Warriors had ties/ good relations with Titan Legio Krytos, Knight House Caesarean, Knight House Kepsydra. I lost the references, my old laptop died I only have basic notes on my phone about them. Edited September 23, 2020 by MegaVolt87 Fenbain 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/366645-grand-catalog-of-the-legiones-astartes-during-the-gc-v30/#findComment-5606050 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beren Posted September 23, 2020 Share Posted September 23, 2020 Another possibility might be associated fiefs and territories? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/366645-grand-catalog-of-the-legiones-astartes-during-the-gc-v30/#findComment-5606168 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandlemad Posted September 23, 2020 Share Posted September 23, 2020 Fiefs and territories would probably be easy enough, the black books have that right at the start of the respective legion sections. Allies would be cool, folks genuinely do come looking for e.g. knight houses or titan legions with a history of fighting alongside particular astartes legions. It can be a bit tricky to define how close you have to be before it counts as an ally though. Legio Audax fought alongside the Dark Angels and were honoured by the Lion but ended up being intimately associated with the World Eaters. The Cthonian Headhunter regiments of the solar auxilia were recruited from the Sons of Horus's stomping ground but don't seem to have been as intimately associated with the XVIth legion as the Thorakites were with the IVth. ShadowSwordmaster 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/366645-grand-catalog-of-the-legiones-astartes-during-the-gc-v30/#findComment-5606203 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indefragable Posted September 23, 2020 Author Share Posted September 23, 2020 Good points about fiefdoms and allies. I included allies for some, like the IV Legion, mainly because the in-setting author seemed to make an explicit point about mentioning them. Likewise for qualifications or special notes on fleets or force sizes, something the in-setting author ("AK") seems to go out of his or her way to point things out which is why I include that for some yet not others. More Items to add. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/366645-grand-catalog-of-the-legiones-astartes-during-the-gc-v30/#findComment-5606256 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indefragable Posted September 23, 2020 Author Share Posted September 23, 2020 Updated to V2.0, adding "Exploration of military terminologies as it relates to Legion Specializations." ....that is where things get juicy and ripe for healthy discussion, if I might say so myself... ShadowSwordmaster, Sandlemad, Cactus and 1 other 4 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/366645-grand-catalog-of-the-legiones-astartes-during-the-gc-v30/#findComment-5606292 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowSwordmaster Posted September 23, 2020 Share Posted September 23, 2020 Awesome work. Indefragable 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/366645-grand-catalog-of-the-legiones-astartes-during-the-gc-v30/#findComment-5606302 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandlemad Posted September 23, 2020 Share Posted September 23, 2020 Nice one, interesting work. Well done making sense of "anti-material warfare" as well. In the context of the Iron Hands and Massacre's emphasis on their ability to take down mechanised or other technologically advanced foes, your explanation fits. Gnostic purgation: I think your explanation is good. Given it's the Word Bearers, I would go further and say it's the targeted modification/destruction of an enemy ideology through military means. Sort of psychological warfare but beyond that, showing up a non-compliant world's belief systems as worthless. Like a pre-iterator way of acting. You could do this partially through oration and propaganda campaigns followed by destroying their cultural heritage/libraries/universities/sacred places/culturally significant leaders but also through a kind of symbolic warfare. From Massacre: Although their methods of war were often workmanlike in application, the Word Bearers always displayed a taste for the symbolic act. War was not just a process, it was a message, and so the Word Bearers would often include notes of the spectacular into their campaigns to make a point. This was the remit of the Ashen Circle but they all had a knack for it. The esoteric knowledge culling thing is there as well, I think, Malevolence does mention the WB being one of the go-to legions for dealing with this sort of thing but I feel that deliberate iconoclasm or destruction of an enemy culture gets closer to the meaning. Yes, this does get touch on brutality of RL imperialism, the great crusade was a monstrous thing. Incidentally this sort of behaviour also prepped the WB wonderfully for the kinds symbolic/ritual warfare Erebus and chaos demanded of them, all that sacrifice and ruinstorm stuff, the bread and butter of the 40k CSM. Harrowing: I think the harassment point is good but I'd tie this to stuff like William the Conqueror's Harrowing of the North ('harrying' seems about as common a use). Basically we're talking chevauchée, "a raiding method of medieval warfare for weakening the enemy, primarily by burning and pillaging enemy territory in order to reduce the productivity of a region, as opposed to siege warfare or wars of conquest". Destroy the support network behind the enemy's military by targeting civilians and infrastructure before eventually, if necessary, bringing the weakened foe to battle. It's brutal, there's an aspect of targeting morale and discrediting the enemy's leadership or administration, it spreads terror and chaos, and it lines up with the Alpha Legion's MO. It's not fantastic if you want much of a useful territory left as a prize, which is why it was so reprehensible to Dorn and Guilliman. Gore Crow and Indefragable 2 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/366645-grand-catalog-of-the-legiones-astartes-during-the-gc-v30/#findComment-5606324 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cactus Posted September 23, 2020 Share Posted September 23, 2020 This is great stuff Indefragable. Could you add a note to each of the 'military methods' saying which legion(s) it was applied to? Indefragable 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/366645-grand-catalog-of-the-legiones-astartes-during-the-gc-v30/#findComment-5606413 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indefragable Posted September 24, 2020 Author Share Posted September 24, 2020 Update 2.1: per request added each Legion under the appropriate Military terms in the Exploration section Cactus and Elzender 2 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/366645-grand-catalog-of-the-legiones-astartes-during-the-gc-v30/#findComment-5606625 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indefragable Posted September 24, 2020 Author Share Posted September 24, 2020 (edited) Update 2.2: added further info to "Harrowing", added "Combined Arms" and "In Extremis" under "Exploration" section Also a request: Under the Reference section you will see areas I hope to expand and add to down the line. If anyone would like to help with those, or provide info/details I can then sort into place, that would be appreciated (certainly in terms of speed to get it up there). Especially the allied Titan section since that is one that does not particularly hold personal interest to me. Edit: to expand on the above a bit further, hopefully as the "Exploration of Military Terminology" section shows, my big picture goal is to not just list say planet names for fiefdoms, but eventually provide a bit more information in order to explore how or why those particular planets fit a Legion. It could be as boring as "they're next to the homeworld," but there are certainly some interesting stories nested throughout the Black Book narratives (Bodt for the XII and Saraph for the IX come to mind). Edited September 24, 2020 by Indefragable Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/366645-grand-catalog-of-the-legiones-astartes-during-the-gc-v30/#findComment-5606671 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beren Posted September 24, 2020 Share Posted September 24, 2020 (edited) Legio Xestobiax had a small garrison on Prospero. Legio Audax served heavily alongside the World Eaters. Legio Mordaxis was associated with the Word Bearers, Legios Praesagius and Oberon had links to the Ultramarines. Mortis and Victorum II both were noted as tools of the Warmaster. Legio Phasma was associated with the Night Lords via the 'Midnight Treaties'. Legio Magna was noted to have campaigned alongside both the Sons of Horus and the Word Bearers. Legio Victorum I and II fought alongside the Night Lords and Legio I (later and forcibly) and III alongside the Dark Angels during the Thramas crusade, but I don't think they had any association prior to that. Edited September 24, 2020 by Beren Sandlemad 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/366645-grand-catalog-of-the-legiones-astartes-during-the-gc-v30/#findComment-5606688 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandlemad Posted September 24, 2020 Share Posted September 24, 2020 Legio Krytos were known for fighting in close concert with the Iron Warriors. For knight houses: House Aerthegn was intimately associated with the Sons of Horus, and owed personal allegiance to the primarch over the imperium as he was the one who discovered them. House Lucaris was also personally loyal to Horus during the great crusade. House Vyridion swore loyalty to Fulgrim and fought alongside the Emperor's Children for three generations of knights, though they began to doubt the rightness of Fulgrim's cause early in the heresy and were largely destroyed by their former allies. House Vornherr pledged "to fight alongside the hosts of the Five Hundred Worlds of Ultramar unto death" and held Guilliman in higher regard than any other commander. Beren 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/366645-grand-catalog-of-the-legiones-astartes-during-the-gc-v30/#findComment-5606732 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beren Posted September 24, 2020 Share Posted September 24, 2020 House Makabius was also largely co-opted by Mortarion and the Death Guard during and after the Coronid Depths campaign. I don't recall if they were associated before then. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/366645-grand-catalog-of-the-legiones-astartes-during-the-gc-v30/#findComment-5606742 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indefragable Posted September 24, 2020 Author Share Posted September 24, 2020 Poking through Book 8: Malevolence over lunch....it appears that no Titan Legios nor Knight Houses accompanied the BA to Signus nor the WS to Chondax. Can anyone confirm? I will have to re-read their entire write-how to see if that was the norm or an aberration. Hidden Content No wonder I’m not a big bot guy, considering those are my two favorite Legions... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/366645-grand-catalog-of-the-legiones-astartes-during-the-gc-v30/#findComment-5606752 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MegaVolt87 Posted September 24, 2020 Share Posted September 24, 2020 AL should be under harrowing, its like their signature power move/ fatality at the end. I imagine its some crazy pitched battle stuff that somehow leaves no survivors? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/366645-grand-catalog-of-the-legiones-astartes-during-the-gc-v30/#findComment-5606790 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beren Posted September 24, 2020 Share Posted September 24, 2020 (edited) I certainly don't recall any. Chondax was meant to be a mobile mop up operation that would keep the White Scars tied down, and Signus was against an uncertain threat that Horus likewise didn't want to give the Angels too much of a chance against, so I'd say that it would have made sense for them not to be accompanied by such heavy duty assets. The Angels did have an allied Cybernetica cohort though. Edited September 24, 2020 by Beren Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/366645-grand-catalog-of-the-legiones-astartes-during-the-gc-v30/#findComment-5606793 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spagunk Posted September 24, 2020 Share Posted September 24, 2020 (edited) The Angels did have an allied Cybernetica cohort though. To further this, The Blood Angels were accompanied on Signus by the Captia Aquillae from FW Anvillus which was from what I read was primarily a cybernetica cohort. So in the case of Signus, there weren't any deployed knights or titans or particularly large units. This may be because those assets were all still in space as Anvillus were allied closely with BA and would have had titan/knight banner assets if the entire Legion deployed. I wish there was more written about Forgeworld Anvillus, tbh. Edited September 24, 2020 by Spagunk Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/366645-grand-catalog-of-the-legiones-astartes-during-the-gc-v30/#findComment-5606829 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indefragable Posted September 24, 2020 Author Share Posted September 24, 2020 AL should be under harrowing, its like their signature power move/ fatality at the end. I imagine its some crazy pitched battle stuff that somehow leaves no survivors? I list only precisely what FW Black Books say, and they don’t say Harrowing for AL. ...though what is listed can be interpreted as a variation of it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/366645-grand-catalog-of-the-legiones-astartes-during-the-gc-v30/#findComment-5606832 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandlemad Posted September 25, 2020 Share Posted September 25, 2020 (edited) House Makabius was also largely co-opted by Mortarion and the Death Guard during and after the Coronid Depths campaign. I don't recall if they were associated before then. Yeah, I hummed and hawed about the same. Their leadership were certainly schmoozing it up with Abaddon politically during the crusade but there's not much about them fighting together and none about fighting with the DG. I don't think it counts as association on the same level as e.g. Legio Mortis or House Aerthegn. And all it got them was Horus passing them over to Mortarion like a used TV... AL should be under harrowing, its like their signature power move/ fatality at the end. I imagine its some crazy pitched battle stuff that somehow leaves no survivors? I list only precisely what FW Black Books say, and they don’t say Harrowing for AL. ...though what is listed can be interpreted as a variation of it. It's weird how FW didn't list it at the start when it's all over their FW background only pages later, to the point of their chapters sometime being called 'Harrows' and the AL officer with operational command in a theatre being a Harrowmaster. It's in Praetorian of Dorn as well, where the AL repeatedly refer to their pre-Pluto disruption actions as a harrowing. Edited September 25, 2020 by Sandlemad Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/366645-grand-catalog-of-the-legiones-astartes-during-the-gc-v30/#findComment-5606894 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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