Horus Heresy Age of Darkness is canon?

[Whitelion]

 

 

Hi everyone, I have seen the forgeworld HH Black book and the HH Age of Darkness game, I was wondering if it's canon.

From what I read they are all notions that do not go beyond the canon, some have told me that it is not canon, but nowhere have I found written that it has been declared "heretic"

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[Gederas]

To most players, they're more canon than Black Library's novels.

[MegaVolt87]

To most players, they're more canon than Black Library's novels.

 

This. Also you could consider the HH series of BL books as a biased eyewitness account of events, the HH black books as a biased historical account. Reading both, you actually get some interesting perspectives (along with continuity issues eg- Chondox, the lion on Caliban before meeting big E, crussade start date etc). 

[Lord_Caerolion]

It's canon, to a certain degree of truthfulness. The key thing to keep in mind is that the FW black books aren't word-of-god insights, they're written as in-universe documents compiled by a Terran historian, "AK". As such, they're only what AK has been able to write about and research. There has been deliberate obfuscation of some things in their retelling, due to either not having any records on the event whatsoever, or having to rely on incomplete or incorrect information.

 

For example, the vast, vast majority of the information on the Alpha Legion is stated to be unknown as to how truthful it really is, given the proclivities of that Legion, even acknowledging that there are numerous vastly different stories about the early life of Alpharius, all having evidence supporting them, even when contradictory.

 

In short, their existence as in-universe documents seems to be as canon as it can get. How truthful these documents are is another question entirely.

[Bryan Blaire]

Whitelion, the thing with all the Heresy and 40K writings is that if it came from GW, it's "canon" (as in official, blessed by the only source that can make it official, etc.) - conflicts and all. There's a basic story that holds true for the 40Kverse and all it's history, but overall there's a "loose canon" aspect, where "everything you have been told is a lie" - how you want to interpret that is very much a thing for the universe. Are conflicts due to biases, propaganda, simply mistaken recordings/records/copying of material or intentional re-writing of items?

 

The HH Black Book materials are written like "future history" works, so like history works, they have biases based on the writings in them and commentary that might be involved, and the 40K stuff has been the same way from what I recall the fluff authors talking about.

 

Similarly, even first hand accounts that we (as readers) are supposedly getting in the Horus Heresy BL series are going to have biases, incorrect/flawed memories, and misinterpreted events, even if they are "what the character had happen to and around them" because that's how minds work - they aren't perfect and most folk aren't telepathic and able to perfectly read others' minds to know exactly what's going on.

 

There are elements of the unreliable narrator in these kinds of accounts, and not necessarily because the author or character/narrator I said intentionally misleading you as a reader, it's just that not everything written is the 100% objective truth in-universe.

[Lord_Caerolion]

The most that we can say is that the Horus Heresy/Siege novels, and the Black Books, are both now under more editorial oversight to minimize the amount of discrepancies, although this only came into serious practice partway through the Heresy series, and both companies seem to be more strongly focused towards remaining consistent within themselves, with not as much attention to the "other guys".

[Whitelion]

i get it, so the Forgeworld material not being from GW shouldn't be canon.

 

Or is it endorsed by GW?

[MegaVolt87]

 

i get it, so the Forgeworld material not being from GW shouldn't be canon.

 

Or is it endorsed by GW?

 

 

How did you draw that conclusion? The black books use the HH novel series as the source material while FW fill in blanks and revise it to read like a historical account. If It doesn't exist they will invent more lore instead. There have been series books that tie back to black books and definitely some primarch books as well. BB content is very much proper lore. 

[Dagoth Ur]

 

i get it, so the Forgeworld material not being from GW shouldn't be canon.

 

Or is it endorsed by GW?

Wait what? How did you get to this conclusion? GW doesn't need to "endorse" FW - Forgeworld is GW's daughter-company/sub-division/whateveryouwannacallit. It's the same overarching construct. Its no more or less canon than Black Library.

[Sandlemad]

 

i get it, so the Forgeworld material not being from GW shouldn't be canon.

 

Or is it endorsed by GW?

Wait what? How did you get to this conclusion? GW doesn't need to "endorse" FW - Forgeworld is GW's daughter-company/sub-division/whateveryouwannacallit. It's the same overarching construct. Its no more or less canon than Black Library.

 

 

Exactly. With the general caveats about point of view and future history and in-universe documents, FW's products are not 'less canon' than anything produced by Black Library or the studio, because it's still GW.

[Rik Lightstar]

Games Workshop (and Forgeworld) have always liked conflicting canon, with opposing viewpoints presented in different publications.

 

My personal favourite example of this was the Warhammer Old World War of the Beard, which was presented in 3 different ways:

 

• Dwarf Army Book: The High Elves attacked and killed Dwarven diplomatic delegation, so the Dwarfs retaliated. Elves can't ever be trusted.
• High Elf Book: Dwarfs launch unprovoked attacks on Elven settlements and withdraw from all diplomatic and trade contacts. Dwarfs can't ever be trusted.
• Dark Elf Book: We dressed up as High Elves and killed some Dwarfs then sat back and watched it kick off, LOLS that was a fantastic moment. We can NEVER be trusted.

 

The Space Wolves attacking Prospero in the Heresy is similar:

 

• Emperor & Malcador: We want the Russ & Space Wolves to bring Magnus to Terra
• Horus: Tells the Wolves that Magnus is a Traitor
• Russ & Space Wolves: We've been ordered to exterminate Magnus & Thousand Sons
• Magnus & Thousand Sons: WTAF we were only trying to warn the Emperor, now we've getting shot.

 

I'm sure there are similar 40k examples, but the War of the Beard one is pretty great.

 

The think to remember about GW background is that it's more like a reality show than a documentary, it's wilfully edited to portray factions and individuals in a certain way, only for them to reveal other "footage" later on and turn those opinions on their heads.

 

Rik

[Xenith]

Everything published by Games Workshop is canon.

[Charlo]

Everything published by Games Workshop is canon.

 

And NOTHING! 

 

But yeah, the HH Black books are all written in a historical account sense, so are reliably "canon", but only as much as something like that could be.

 

Black Library is the same, it's a story told from many perspectives of events so it's also "canon", but could be innacurate.

[Xenith]

Yea, there's always a caveat with this. The universe is a big place, and pretty much anything anyone writes has happened*, however one has to consider the author/viewpoint of the events and whether they could be biased.

 

*

Apart from the work of C.S.Goto. I'm not sure if a race of three armed Eldar and backflipping terminators ever jived with GW.

[Lord_Caerolion]

i get it, so the Forgeworld material not being from GW shouldn't be canon.

 

Or is it endorsed by GW?

We seem to have this discussion in each of your threads. This delineation of “canon vs non-canon” doesn’t exist in GW as you believe it does.

 

I didn’t say they’re not canon, just that they’re two different writing teams. The BL authors heavily collaborate with each other now, but they don’t particularly collaborate with FW, at least not directly.

 

EDIT: To clarify, this obviously excludes fan-made things. GW doesn't include those in their "all things are canon" approach, but everything released by GW and their assorted companies (Forge World, Specialist Games, and Black Library) fall under this umbrella.

Edited September 24, 2020 by Lord_Caerolion

[Ghorgul]

Black books are written as well in past tense.

 

https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/The_Horus_Heresy_Book_One_-_Betrayal

 

"Most of the book is presented as a record written by "A.K." shortly after the Horus Heresy."

 

Same A.K. tags apper also in the Book 2's preface.

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/360294-who-is-ak/

 

Basically most of the black books are written as if written by in-universe character, clearly pointing to the events having happened in the past. This is unreliable narrator to a T. Sure, of course we can expect that majority of stuff is at least vaguely correct, but then again as the books are written by in-universe character then it's pretty obvious he cannot possess perfect information or get into the heads of the specific characters to really know their motivations; thus unreliable narrator.

 

In some sense this would mean that Black Books are less canon than various Black Library books, as many of these delve into the thoughts of the characters and are written in present time instead of historical accounts like these FW Black Books are. However of course the canon from Black Library suffers naturally from the amount of authors producing the books, so even major inconsistencies can slip in there.

[Scribe]

 

i get it, so the Forgeworld material not being from GW shouldn't be canon.

 

Or is it endorsed by GW?

No. FW is, outside a few (3-5) Black Library authors the best source for canon.

 

GW proper is the literal worst source in terms of quality of the 3.

[Whitelion]

ok , thank you very much guys, I did not know that Forgeworld was from the official GW group.

Now I have more desire to read the Black books.

 

I was getting confused with Battlefleet Gothic HH , that is fanmade

[Lord_Caerolion]

 

ok , thank you very much guys, I did not know that Forgeworld was from the official GW group.

Now I have more desire to read the Black books.

 

I was getting confused with Battlefleet Gothic HH , that is fanmade

 

 

No worries. I do definitely recommend the black books, it's just unfortunate that there's no digital versions, and the physical versions are not exactly cheap. I still cannot for the life of my figure out why GW/FW won't release digital editions of them like they do with pretty much every single other book they release.

 

Actually, are there any other books released by GW that don't have digital versions like this?

[Noserenda]

Yeah GW does not recognise Canon as a thing, The Black books are pretty solid but they do have an unreliable (Though probably not intentionally) narrator.

[battle captain corpus]

My view is that if it’s published/made by GW it’s thus canon. It can be conflicting, confusing and sometimes retconned but still canon.

It’s also worth noting, some canon can be different obviously as it’s from differing viewpoints. :)

 

BCC

[Gederas]

My view is that if it’s published/made by GW it’s thus canon. It can be conflicting, confusing and sometimes retconned but still canon.

It’s also worth noting, some canon can be different obviously as it’s from differing viewpoints.

 

BCC

Pretty much this.

 

 

... Except anything from CS Goto. Nothing that man writes can be taken as canon.

[Xenith]

 

... Except anything from CS Goto. Nothing that man writes can be taken as canon.

 

 

Yea, there's always a caveat with this. The universe is a big place, and pretty much anything anyone writes has happened*, however one has to consider the author/viewpoint of the events and whether they could be biased.

 

*

Apart from the work of C.S.Goto. I'm not sure if a race of three armed Eldar and backflipping terminators ever jived with GW.

 

 I got you. There's a reason he hasn't written for BL in almost 2 decades. 

Edited September 30, 2020 by Xenith