Crusading, Power, Points, army design: reflections

[Schlitzaf]

 

No, you didn't read what I wrote. Their problem wasn't with power level as a system, but the fact GW didn't adjust it. Even after switching to points, they continued to extol the virtues of power level. With power levels adjusted, they'll probably be back to it (once the pandemic allows).

 

I will attempt this argument one more time as I'm not sure I've successfully made the point (or maybe I have and it's just been ignored). And by the way, toaae, I'm just using your last post here as the stand-in interlocutor for my argument; I'm not suggesting that you alone have made this argument, so my response is really at the entire audience of individuals who essentially agree with what you said.

 

____________________________________

 

 

You have a model with a gun.

That model has x value in the game so we cost it at x points.

You have 10 of those models in the unit so we cost it at 10x.

 

You have an option to give those 10 models different guns.

Now that same model with that different gun has a value of x+5

10 of those models thus have a cost of 10x+50.

 

The range of value of this unit is between (10x) and (10x+50) depending on what gun you give them.

 

As an alternative, you allow the player the following option: "Hey player, to make the bookeeping easier, we're going to just say that unit costs "10 power" regardless of what gear or gun you give them.

 

non-rhetorical question that I believe deserves an answer:  How can one number (10) properly reflect the resource value of a set of models (ie, a unit) that has an extremely variable range of value?

 

 

I have seen 2 "sorta" answers:

 

1. I have to change my paradigm of understanding the game and that others have a fundamentally different approach to the game. I honestly have no idea what this means.  I'm not trolling here, guys, I really don't understand this and I would like to because maybe there is something I'm missing.

2. The value "x" of a given model+gun was never accurate to begin with.  While I agree with this, it doesn't address the point that if system 1 of valuing a thing is off by, let's say for argument's sake, 10%, then system 2, which is a further abstraction of system 1 is off by at least as much, and, given the issues presented above, is likely to be off by considerably more.

 

 

So here non rhetorical answer. 

X = 2. 

2 = 2

 

Does 4/2 = 2? 

Does (15+35)/20 = 2? 

Does X = 4/2?

Does X = (15+35)/20? 

 

Because that arbitrary value of 10 that is applied is in fact NOT an arbitrary value but one determined by what is the most value in point and least amount of points of upgrades (that cost points) averaged. And before you go 

"But a squad of Melta, Multi-Melta, Inferno Pistol and Fist costs more point than Sbolter x 3 and PowSword"

 

Here is something piece of math for you. 

3 > 2 > 1 > 0.33 (or 0.66) 

1 > 0.66 or 0.5 > 0.55 or 0.42

1 > 0.66 > 0.55 

 

Looking at 1.7 Wounds Dealt to Marines. Lets take the SBolter Squad instead

 

2 > 1.32 > 0.66 > 0.22 (or 0.44)

6 > 4 > 2 > 0.66 (or 1.32) 

 

Fascinating did the SBolter Squad in fact do the same amount of Net Wounds inflict at optimal range? But unlike the Melta Squad which is many more points it'll more inflict wounds on average vs Marines by 25% outside 12? Now lets shoot some gaurdsman 

 

Still 1 dead from Melta + 0.88, so 2 dead gaurdsman or 2 wounds inflict. But those SBolters? 

 

2 > 1.32 > 0.88 > 0.6 (1.2)

6 > 4 > 2.66 > 1.8 (or 3.6) 

 

Now they are actually killing almost 3x the number of Gaurdsman. Despite being an objectively fewer points spent? Riddle me this, why in points do something like Melta cost mulah? 

 

In points what shooting melta cost mulah, and alot of it. So for meltas and anti-tank to not render those units useless they need to cost more points. While infantry with cost less per model and have more on table your anti-infantry you need in excess so its cheap. If you look at power level due to the fact of how averages worth a tank is worth overall less power than you would initially imagine. Knights being sub 25 power level many in 17-22 range despite being 450-500 points implying they be mid to high 20's. You can see this in other cases for tanks overall. A Rhino is 3-4 Power despite being 70-90 point implying be 4-6 power level. But because anti-tank is less cost intensive they need cost less to take. 

 

And characters, characters named especially often have 20-30 points discount. In power level because it all equalized, a character in power will often be 1-2 power more than he'd actually be because the points discount sense you get gear, better auras over an equivalent generic. So answer your question. 

 

Its not an arbitrary value and while points are generally given more effort and as such balanced better. But the there is a method or reasoning to madness beside being easier on noobs. 

[dracpanzer]

 

We are using points over PL because our league...

This thread is about Crusade, though.

Good thing I was talking about our Crusade league.

[toaae]

 

 

We are using points over PL because our league...

This thread is about Crusade, though.

 

Good thing I was talking about our Crusade league.

 

A for-cash Crusade league? I can't help but feel that misses the point.

[Dread]

It's really hard to say much so early on in the new crusade set up, I've only got 3 games in so far, 2 with sisters 1 with necrons. Now what I've learned is I enjoyed my sisters more. It's actually nice to not have to worry about points while tying to learn all the other rules, terrain, strats, auras, etc. For now this has been nice. Just getting to play during this pandemic is wonerful.

[dracpanzer]

A for-cash Crusade league? I can't help but feel that misses the point.

 

What point would that be? All the participants know going in to it what it is. Everything has to be painted and that fact is keeping everyone motivated to paint as most of us are building new armies.

 

The format itself is fun and different as it creates situations where 700 points of Sisters have to try and snatch victory from 900 points of 1kSons etc. We are all having a blast, isn't that the point?

Edited October 18, 2020 by dracpanzer

[MasterDeath]

Do mean "for-cash" as in over money or in "for-cash" as in competitive no-holds-barred. I think thats the question here :D

[ValourousHeart]

Not all competitive 40k events have to have toxic levels of vitriol between the players.  I'm sure it is effectively the same as a fantasy football league at work.

[dracpanzer]

As in; competitive no holds barred with zero vitriol between friends for money.

 

Eight players, $10 each every week, two brackets of four drawn randomly each Tuesday. Three rounds in each bracket gets two to a top table. They play for the pot. The six losers drink beer and talk smack. Forces only level up once a week and draw resources for just one game but gain xp and scars for each.

[ThePenitentOne]

Heads up: Sisters specific Crusade Agenda in WD Flashpoint article. It's not much, but we now have at least a whiff of Sisters specific Crusade content. This Agenda is all about control of the deployment Zones. The next two WD Flashpoints will be continuations of the same storyline, so perhaps there will be more coming soon.