Movement over multiple craters.

[Emurian]

Good day,

 

My group has a discussion, we are non native, so we might read things differently as intended.

 

Context:

We had a battle with 4 Quake Craters as terrain. The 4 craters where very close near eachother. We agreed that each crater is an individual terrain piece.

 

Now comes the movement part, we had a blob of 15 necron warriors moving over 2 different craters at the same time. 

 

The discussion is about if the penalty to movement is cumulative or not.

 

The way I read it: You substract 2 inch from what a model is able to move.

 

I read this as: You look at the movement value of the model, and then substract 2 from that movement value. So regardless if your standing in 1, 2 or 15 pieces of Area terrain / difficult ground. The max that gets substracted from your movement is 2.

 

The way another reads it:

This is a -2 penalty modifier, which stacks. So if your unit stands in 2 different area terrain its movement is reduced by 4. If your unit stands in 3 pieces its movement is reduced by 6.

 

I would like people to clarify which one of the above is RAI. It seems absurd to me that a unit standing in 3 craters is not able to move unless they advance. 

 

Thank you for your time in advance. 

 

 

[Dr_Ruminahui]

I can see the ambiguity.

 

The rule at question is the Difficult Ground trait of the craters (This is on page 84 of the Mission Pack, page 262 of the Core Rules).

 

"If a unit makes a Normal Move, Advance, Fall Back, or if it make s a charge move, and any of its models wish to move over any part of the terrain feature" that each model moves 2 inches less. 

 

 

This rule is under the general category of "Terrain Features (stating on page 82 of the Mission Pack, page 260 of the Core Rules), where it states:

 

"This section provides rules for using a range of terrain features..."  and then

 

"Before the battle begins, you and your opponent will need to create the battlefield by setting up several terrain features..."

 

I then gives a list of terrain categories (Hills, Obstacles, Area and Buildings).

 

 

Then, on pages 86-87 of the Mission Pack, pages 264-265of the Core Rules, it has a picture of various terrain and the title Common Terrain Features, then assigns terrain categories and traits to various pieces of GW terrain.

 

 

The rule for Difficult Terrain triggers off of the terrain feature, meaning that each terrain feature would give its own -2.  If the rules had intended otherwise, it would have been worded as "one or more terrain features with this terrain trait".

 

That, however, doesn't actually answer the question, because "terrain feature" isn't defined in the rules.  For example, with the picture on pages 86-87 of the Mission Pack, pages 264-265 of the Core Rules, it gives as examples of terrain features with difficult terrain barricades and pipes.  Given the use of plurals for most categories (only "Imperial Structure" is singular), suggests that you can have several pieces of terrain grouped together to form one terrain feature.  For example, you can have several non-contiguous barricades or ruined walls (which don't have the difficult terrain trait) that count as one feature.

 

So, if the craters are grouped together as one feature, then it would only trigger once.  If they are each their own feature, you would get the -2 for each one that a model wants to cross.

 

In other words... best to discuss it with your opponents before hand.

Edited September 30, 2020 by Dr_Ruminahui

[Emurian]

Thank you for the response and time taken to look at multiple pages. 

I am not sure untill what extend I am allowed to copy paste rules, someone point out to me if I list to much.

Quote: If a unit makes a Normal move, Advances, Falls back or it makes a charge move, and any of its models wish to move over any part of this terrain feature. Substract 2'' from the maximum distance that every model in that unit can move (to a minimum of 0) even if every part of this terrain feature is 1'' less in height. This penalty does not apply if every model in the moving unit can fly.

For me the sentence where the discussion weighs on is: Substract 2'' from the maximum distance that every model in that unit can move.

Substract 2 from the maximum distance is different in my view then a -2 penalty modifier to movement.

The crux is the definition of what they mean with: The maximum distance a unit can move.

The way I interpret this is, the distance a unit can move according to its movement stat.

So a marine has M6, thus the maximum distance he can move is 6. (normal movement)

Stating substract 2'' from the >maximum distance< would keep referring to the >base value< of the model its >movement stat<. It shouldn't thus matter if its being applied multiple times as the 2'' substraction keeps being applied to the base number 6, not going from 6 (-2) to 4 then (-2) to 2 in case of 2 terrain pieces. 

Of course I am slightly biased at this point to win the discussion ;). I will not deny that I in general love discussions and debates and wont shy away from them. The wording is just so unclear in my eyes that it can be read in multiple ways. 
 

[Dr_Ruminahui]

Two things:

 

1.  The rules clearly adjust their maximum move distance, not their move characteristic.  If it affected the move stat, it would say so.  Where the rules prevent multiple adjustments to a value, they state as much - for example, the cap of +1/-1 to hit roles.  Here there is no such limitation.

 

2.  Nothing in the rules prevents you from making multiple adjustments to a stat - see the box labelled Modifying Characteristics (page 61 of the MIssion Pack, page 203 of the Core Book) as the order of operations provided for making adjustments clearly assumes multiple adjustments are occurring.  Therefore, having it adjust their move characteristic rather than their maximum move distance doesn't affect the result. 

Edited September 30, 2020 by Dr_Ruminahui

[Valkyrion]

The terrain doesn't alter your characteristics, only the distance you can travel.

 

Your argument that as a marines M value is 6 that is his maximum move is incorrect. His maximum move is determined by numerous factors - he moves 2D6 when charging, 6+D6 when advancing are just two immediate examples,

 

Subtracting 2 from your movement characteristic would give you M4, but this leaves you on M6 and forces you to subtract two. It's functionally the same in this case, and most cases it will be functionally the same too, but if there was an ability or stratagem that allowed the the unit to move at double it's M characteristic you'd end up with two different totals.

 

e.g, if a spell allows the marines to double their M value - so M becomes 12, minus two = 10" range

In your reading of it you take the 2 off their M so it becomes 4, doubled to 8 - a two inch difference.

 

Chaos daemons banners add 1 to advance and charges rolls - they don't increase the M by 1. Again, in most cases its functionally the same but it matters when you come to using other rules that interact.

 

In this instance, the movement penalty stacks as you've designated each crater as it's own terrain piece. You're probably unlikely to do this again!

[ValourousHeart]

I don't believe that GW ever intended a units movement to be reduced by 4 inches, because they walked from one crater to the next, as that seems overly punishing.

In previous editions, any reduction in movement from terrain was the same if you were exiting terrain, entering terrain, stayed in the same piece of terrain for the entire move or ran out of then back into terrain in the same move.

 

The rules are also written with the expectation that there would be a 3 inch gap between terrain pieces.

Which brings up an interesting paradox.

In that if you apply both penalties, the unit won't be able to move far enough to actually trigger the 2nd movement penalty.

So is it actually moving into that terrain that slows the unit or are they slowed just by moving close to it.

 

Personally I would avoid this conundrum by treating similar terrain pieces located in close proximity to each other as a single large terrain feature.

Which would mean that the area between the craters is also difficult ground.

And that make sense to me, because it isn't likely to be smooth and clear sidewalks between those craters.

 

This clustering also makes the scatter crap (bits and bobs and clutter) mean something instead of just being generally ignored by everything.