Flesh and Steel

[Urauloth]

A little over halfway through. Guy's best work, I reckon. Also surprisingly creepy and gruesome - he really should write something for the horror imprint sometime.

[Roomsky]

Flesh and Steel – Guy Haley

 

Or: A several hundred page thesis about why Haley should be kept away from writing marines or primarchs, and just write about nobodies on various Imperial worlds instead.

 

I enjoyed this book more than anything else Haley has written. I enjoyed this book more than I ever thought I could something out of Haley. It’s fantastic, and if Crime novels continue to bring out the best in the BL authors we need far more of them.

 

The first-person writing style does wonders for many. Shortcomings in prose suddenly become a part of the characters’ voice, so while I often dislike Haley’s narration I quite like Noctis’. Besides lacking marines and primarchs, the book is also very low on action scenes, which for me personally takes care of Haley’s other major shortcoming. It’s like the genre was tailor-made for him to excel.

 

The story is snappy and intriguing. The world building is great and as an AdMech fan I’m happy to say this is the most effectively they’ve been used as a supporting faction in a while. Varangantua’s nobility is well described too, with a lot of dubious goings on previously only hinted at now on full display, and there’s plenty more besides. All the noble families are wonderfully punchable.

 

The highlight section of the book for me is the protagonists’ walk through the servitor “killing floor,” a truly unsettling sequence worthy of any in the Horror line. I won’t go into details, but industrialized slaughter is one of my biggest personal fears. The book comes across as a combination of my two favourite podcasts, Juno Steel and The Magnus Archives, and I love it.

 

I have very little to criticize here. If I had to nitpick, Noctis comes across as a tad woke for an Imperial citizen but it does endear me to him tremendously, so YMMV. I’m not sure how to judge his brothers’ portrayal. On one hand it is absolutely miles better than how the lesbian inclinations of Legio Solaria were represented in Titandeath. On the other hand, I found the camp gay delivery of his lines in the audiobook rather distracting. I think it’s decent enough.

 

Anyhoo, 9/10.

Go read this book. It’s great.

[Knockagh]

Those mech fellas are just plain nasty. I can’t think of any other BL books that have shown the type of nasty stuff they do. The servitor factory is enough to give you the proper creeps.

[StrangerOrders]

Flesh and Steel – Guy Haley

 

Or: A several hundred page thesis about why Haley should be kept away from writing marines or primarchs, and just write about nobodies on various Imperial worlds instead.

 

I enjoyed this book more than anything else Haley has written. I enjoyed this book more than I ever thought I could something out of Haley. It’s fantastic, and if Crime novels continue to bring out the best in the BL authors we need far more of them.

 

The first-person writing style does wonders for many. Shortcomings in prose suddenly become a part of the characters’ voice, so while I often dislike Haley’s narration I quite like Noctis’. Besides lacking marines and primarchs, the book is also very low on action scenes, which for me personally takes care of Haley’s other major shortcoming. It’s like the genre was tailor-made for him to excel.

 

The story is snappy and intriguing. The world building is great and as an AdMech fan I’m happy to say this is the most effectively they’ve been used as a supporting faction in a while. Varangantua’s nobility is well described too, with a lot of dubious goings on previously only hinted at now on full display, and there’s plenty more besides. All the noble families are wonderfully punchable.

 

The highlight section of the book for me is the protagonists’ walk through the servitor “killing floor,” a truly unsettling sequence worthy of any in the Horror line. I won’t go into details, but industrialized slaughter is one of my biggest personal fears. The book comes across as a combination of my two favourite podcasts, Juno Steel and The Magnus Archives, and I love it.

 

I have very little to criticize here. If I had to nitpick, Noctis comes across as a tad woke for an Imperial citizen but it does endear me to him tremendously, so YMMV. I’m not sure how to judge his brothers’ portrayal. On one hand it is absolutely miles better than how the lesbian inclinations of Legio Solaria were represented in Titandeath. On the other hand, I found the camp gay delivery of his lines in the audiobook rather distracting. I think it’s decent enough.

 

Anyhoo, 9/10.

Go read this book. It’s great.

Great review.

 

On the note of Pravinus as opposed to the Solaris, I think its a subject of night and day. Maybe its a bit of an 'outsider looking in' sort of deal but what annoyed me about the Solaris is what annoys me about alot of (forgive the language) male writers in the anglosphere (I feel like it would be unfair to pin it on a particular ethnicity) who are trying for a positive depiction of another group.

 

Namely a disturbing need to insert themselves into the situation. 

 

Pravinus has his own ideas, his own vices and values, his own identity, and absolutely none of it relates to a need to discuss masculinity and femininity constantly or to antagonize women. He is a fairly honest take in that he simply just doesn't really think about women when he isn't dealing with a person that happens to be a woman. His dialogue is about his own interests and values, he comments on boys he likes and is a braggart about his conquests but doesnt ever demean women or men that prefer women, he is comfortable in his own self.

 

As opposed to the Solaris's bizarre need to flex on gender-identity every two minutes and to go out of their way to center on their identity in relation to men, thats really anger-inducing to me because its a negative stereotype (the good old 'oh they just hate men' line) that is taken 100% unironically because the author seems to subconsciously need to insert himself into the situation. It strikes me as deeply demeaning that they are so obsessed with that. 

 

I don't think this is a uniquely 'Haley' problem, so much as a more general problem of writers having this weird need to put themselves into the situation in a really unhealthy way. I don't mind an all-woman Legion with an angle towards developing a mono-gender subculture, but its just really damned patronizing to spin it as if they are this needy group that can only find a meaningful identity in being antagonistic with men. Its closer to giving the message that they cant stand on their own or are fundamentally incapable of moving on than progressing forwards on their own two feet.

 

I hate to get ranty, but its so irksome to me compared to Pravinus (who is ironically enough fairly in line with hispanic archetypes of a gay man (the whole 'hyper-filial and loyal to the family onto death' type in telenovelas)), who is allowed to breath and be his own person. 

 

I dont get the voice though, I sort of figured from his dress style and the general names of the place that the only irregular voice worth inserting would perhaps be something along the lines of a really old aristocratic style (I admit, the wig made an impression).

 

Those mech fellas are just plain nasty. I can’t think of any other BL books that have shown the type of nasty stuff they do. The servitor factory is enough to give you the proper creeps.

I love how he makes it so horrific but at the same time explains their reasoning about it. The book goes out of its way to make it fairly clear that the Imperium really couldnt survive without Servitors while also going out of its way to make it horrific. Especially the parts with Lux where she is more or less accepting that alot of those reasons are justifications that the Admech tell themselves to get around the fact that they can't see an alternative.

 

I'm not the biggest fan of clearcut 'right and wrong', especially in a situation where the working solution is awful. There is certainly some fun grimderp and I think the book is better for it, but Haley as I said before really does seem to want to make the Admech this weird place between horrible and sympathetic. 

 

Call me crazy but I think this ties into Haley also being one of the authors who you get the sense goes out of his way to read everything and respect the work of others (although we have all talked about the fact that this is sometimes to his detriment). I genuinely think he has read McNeill's (very good) Mechanicum stories, since those are where you really see precisely how dangerous messing with AI is in 40k and even metaphysically addresses why its a more hazardous subject than our own world.

 

Also, correct me if I am wrong but this is the first time its been officially stated that any part of the Admech is seeking to create AI with a 'soul' before. Its a really interesting idea to play with moving forwards. 

[aa.logan]

I didn’t listen to to it, so can’t comment with any authority on the voices used, but I welcome the flaming nature of Pravinus as much as the subtle, discreet and mundane Tekoa in Rites of Passage. Maybe even more so. It’s refreshing to have a character so very comfortable in themself on the page, it makes what could potentially be an unrelatable character nicely human.

 

As for the Solaris, all I saw was a group bonding through the rejection of the ‘other’; in doing so they’re acting in a wholly appropriate manner for the Imperium. Everything the Imperium does, especially militarily, seems to be explicitly motivated by hate. It therefore makes perfect sense to me for them to reinforce whatever they see as essential to their group identity, in this case gender, at the expense of those who are not part of the group. Pravinus can be himself, and not hostile towards female characters because he isn’t part of a religious totalitarian military organisation fighting in a terrible and unprecedented civil war that has caused massive existential trauma to the already pretty messed up social order. He’s an impossibly privileged playboy, whose existence is largely supported by the accident of his birth. Had he been born to a different family, branch of the same, or in a different sequence to his siblings, maybe it would be different. But the civilian experience of 30/40k is always going to be different to those on the frontlines.

 

I’ve been agonising over what I’ve written above, in my head it makes complete sense, but I’m sure I could have been more succinct. The next point has been through many drafts too-

 

Even outside of totalitarian military organisations, plenty of lesbians outwardly express a dislike and distrust of men. Even when not in the upper echelons of society plenty of gay man are fans of fashion and promiscuity. Many, if not most, of my favourite people fall into either category. I’d say that including these archetypes isn’t the author inserting themselves, just representing possibilities.

 

(Also, got to say, I’m absolutely loving the long posts recent books are promoting. Folk are really making some fantastic points)

[StrangerOrders]

I didn’t listen to to it, so can’t comment with any authority on the voices used, but I welcome the flaming nature of Pravinus as much as the subtle, discreet and mundane Tekoa in Rites of Passage. Maybe even more so. It’s refreshing to have a character so very comfortable in themself on the page, it makes what could potentially be an unrelatable character nicely human.

 

As for the Solaris, all I saw was a group bonding through the rejection of the ‘other’; in doing so they’re acting in a wholly appropriate manner for the Imperium. Everything the Imperium does, especially militarily, seems to be explicitly motivated by hate. It therefore makes perfect sense to me for them to reinforce whatever they see as essential to their group identity, in this case gender, at the expense of those who are not part of the group. Pravinus can be himself, and not hostile towards female characters because he isn’t part of a religious totalitarian military organisation fighting in a terrible and unprecedented civil war that has caused massive existential trauma to the already pretty messed up social order. He’s an impossibly privileged playboy, whose existence is largely supported by the accident of his birth. Had he been born to a different family, branch of the same, or in a different sequence to his siblings, maybe it would be different. But the civilian experience of 30/40k is always going to be different to those on the frontlines.

 

I’ve been agonising over what I’ve written above, in my head it makes complete sense, but I’m sure I could have been more succinct. The next point has been through many drafts too-

 

Even outside of totalitarian military organisations, plenty of lesbians outwardly express a dislike and distrust of men. Even when not in the upper echelons of society plenty of gay man are fans of fashion and promiscuity. Many, if not most, of my favourite people fall into either category. I’d say that including these archetypes isn’t the author inserting themselves, just representing possibilities.

 

(Also, got to say, I’m absolutely loving the long posts recent books are promoting. Folk are really making some fantastic points)

Fair points but I do think there is a certain degree of cultural bias one should always be aware of. Masculine and female have meanings outside the anglosphere that I think folks sometimes mistakenly take as inherent, which I think does alter perception a bit.

 

To dig a bit deeper into Pravinus, I think the traits you mentioned with him and the ones I noticed first are sort of good points for contrast. Both are valid in my view but which one we opt to discuss or take notice of are reflective of cultural bias.

 

I mentioned Pravinus's familial loyalty and dwelled a fair bit on my liking of its rarity in 40k, but as I also said it is an archetype for gay men in latin cultures (or at least the one I was raised with, those of the men I personally know and those whose media Ive consumed over the years). While the fashion thing is evident as are the promiscuity, the more positive archetype and frankly sometimes unhealthy fixation is on filial loyalty and care for the family. Latin culture is considerably more communal in my experience than the anglosphere and there is a heavy expectation on caring for your folks (and overlap with South and East asian cultures there I suppose) but this has sort of evolved into a fairly weighty archetype with gay men, especially in media. The gay sibling or cousin in telenovellas is always slotted into the sort of concierge position or the enforcer position for the family head's will, with more heroic ones being those that seek reconciliation between the head and the protagonist or are willing to bend here and there. 

 

This does have an effect, there is alot of toxicity still around gay men but the way people talk in my experience there is almost always a tone of 'well, they dont have to worry about their old age anymore'. You sort of get automatically branded as the one that is going to be most loyal to your parents.

 

A really depressing contrast though is the really aggressive and negative archetype you see with lesbian characters (and unfortunately, irl people). They are sort of treated as being the least filial and actively toxic to the family's interests in alot of cases where the justification is usually that they have some sort of trauma or image problem that makes them actively want to harm the rest of the family. My own experience is much more with these cases because there are a few women with that preference within my family and the sort of suspicion they still have to live with in my experience is really damned miserable. Where in the anglosphere that sort of thing is treated as more of a freedom angle and a right to battle against the other.

 

The problem is that such a stance is really lethal in a culture where your family is a much more pronounced part of your social framework and not watching out for the collective interest is something to be actively reviled and disdained. The most unfortunate case is that, english media being the most common, well-meaning messages do end up creating an adversely reinforcing idea when thrown into a context that the original creator didnt realize their take wasnt universal for. 

 

So when I looked at Pravinus, my mindset sort of defaulted to 'what a neat take on this archetype, nice to see that in 40k' by focusing on his filial attitude. I noticed his other traits but they sort of just blended in for me so I didnt really think them worth noting beyond their acknowledgement. Whereas a different set of experiences justly point out that it is nice to see his preferences be treated respectfully.

 

Or, with the infamous Fulgrim joke, I didnt register it as a gay joke on first glance so much as the Khan calling Fulgrim an incestuous child-abuser. Because I sort of went straight to the 'Astartes as family' thing, its why I tend to dislike 40k's handling of family since it sort of sometimes comes across as disturbing or warped in some fashion. That one I have just made my peace with though as being the result of a very different cultural lens.

 

The Solaris on the other hand do stir a very visceral reaction for me because they come across as a really violently homophobic thing for me. I do not think this is fair to Haley and do not want to come across as I think that of him, its more to the point that a different context breeds different perceptions. Often sharply in contrast to what the authors means. Its just that sort of serves as the root of my distate.

 

I hate to get so personal with these things (especially since to a degree it isnt my story to tell) but I do really want to explain the hows and whys of this topic since its one I've been turning over in my head for a while and want to articulate as coherently as I can.

 

It got sort of rambly and as I said I have been thinking of how to articulate that one for a while now, but I hope it makes sense.

Edited October 21, 2020 by StrangerOrders

[Beren]

Regarding depictions of the Mechanicus, I feel like there was a post-Codex release period where all the works involving them were tie ins that were mandated to use cookie-cutter depictions and to stick to the whole emotionless fanatics thing. Even in Fehervari's contribution to the Codex tie ins (Vanguard) his Mechaniucs elements lacked their previously weird and unique descriptions from Fire Caste in favour of codex-analogues.

 

Now we've moved on from that period, works like Cassandra Khaw's Nepenthe, John French's Spirit of Cogs and pretty much all of Guy Haley's depictions have managed to dive back into the weirder and more varied aspects again, whilst still suing the codex variants as a strong base. I also find that the stronger depictions of the mechanicus tend to avoid using 2d 'robot' characters, rather using the nature of their mental alterations and their specific culture to add new and deeper dimensions to the characters, even adding note of melancholy when both Glavius-4-Rho and Lux inspect or shunt aside fragments of memory that are now irrelevant to them. 

[aa.logan]

@StrangerOrders your post Is brilliant and deserves a much longer response, but for now I’ll just say that the idea that we’re all good to our mothers is very much attached to gay men in the UK. It’s really interesting to take a global perspective, and one that I really should do more. Much to think about.

[Roomsky]

Do feel free to boot us into another thread if it’s even an allowed topic, Kelborn.

 

Any issues I have with Solaria or Provinus are less to do with any specifics of their portrayal and more the context of BL’s writing queer people in general. Lesbians who are uncomfortable around men and flaming gay guys are fine, but become less fine when they’re close to the only examples on display, especially in a setting that’s often comically homoerotic. BL is so uncomfortable with sexuality in general that characters who would be benign among many become problematic on their own.

 

It’s like how queer coded villains are fun in a landscape with growing representation, but were uncomfortable when they first appeared in media (eg: Jafar)

 

But again, I think my issue is just with the narrator. Gay guys are allowed to be promiscuous and into fashion, obviously.

[StrangerOrders]

Since we are on the topic of Pravinus and alot of folks have read this now, I sort of want to bring up the one thing in the book that really irked me.

 

Was anyone else really annoyed by the scene with the Club owner?

I know its a staple of the genre but the thing is that everything we know about the setting and this hive in particular sort of tells me that this guy's attitude and casual rudeness towards Pravinus is the sort of thing more likely to get you thrown into prison or beat half to death than actually working.

It feels like Haley hyped the guy up a bit too much but he had this sort of flexing power that is something I would only attach to an Inquisitor, Astartes or elder Sister rather than a random crime lord/casino owner.

 

It didnt help when Noctis was affronted by his behaviour towards Pravinus, I get what Haley was going for but I sort of feel the way Hive Nobility is built up in both the book and the setting that legitimately shouldnt have flown. Regardless of how atypically forgiving and nonchalant Pravinus is, its even at odds with how seriously he seems to take behaviour that disrespects his family.

 

I admit that character archetype in general bothers me but here it felt really egregious. Its a small part in a book so I didnt pay it that much mind but it really irked me.

Edited October 21, 2020 by StrangerOrders

[Roomsky]

Since we are on the topic of Pravinus and alot of folks have read this now, I sort of want to bring up the one thing in the book that really irked me.

 

Was anyone else really annoyed by the scene with the Club owner?

 

I know its a staple of the genre but the thing is that everything we know about the setting and this hive in particular sort of tells me that this guy's attitude and casual rudeness towards Pravinus is the sort of thing more likely to get you thrown into prison or beat half to death than actually working.

 

It feels like Haley hyped the guy up a bit too much but he had this sort of flexing power that is something I would only attach to an Inquisitor, Astartes or elder Sister rather than a random crime lord/casino owner.

 

It didnt help when Noctis was affronted by his behaviour towards Pravinus, I get what Haley was going for but I sort of feel the way Hive Nobility is built up in both the book and the setting that legitimately shouldnt have flown. Regardless of how atypically forgiving and nonchalant Pravinus is, its even at odds with how seriously he seems to take behaviour that disrespects his family.

 

I admit that character archetype in general bothers me but here it felt really egregious. Its a small part in a book so I didnt pay it that much mind but it really irked me.

 

I thought it was a bit odd but dismissed it as Haley setting up his next Noctis and Lux book. It seemed like too important and fleshed out a figure (and piece of information), to only be used for a single scene. It'll admittedly be much stranger if we never see the guy again.

Edited October 22, 2020 by Roomsky

[Hasoroth]

Finished Flesh and Steel today shortly after the Infinite and the Divine.

 

It's a good book, on a surface level Noctis reminds me of Will Smith's character from Bad Boys, a detective from a well monied background who can't resist flaunting it. The world building is immense, and it was rewarding to me that I began to pick up on certain locations and characters I had read about previously in the anthology (i.e. Menem-Ba's gambling den). While at first I was hesitant about Probator Noctis' background as a noble scion turned detective (noir generally isn't well served by powerful protagonists, for one example look at the story featuring an ex-Inquisitorial acolyte in the Warhammer Crime anthology), Haley uses his background to great effect to showcase more of the Alectio, to show just what it means to be wealthy and high born in the Imperium, and to also show the limits of that wealth.

 

It's a common trope in Warhammer novels that just the mention of an Inquisitor will have people pissing their pants, but we miss the impact of their reputation when we read those words through an Inquisitors perspective. Seeing the great powers of the Imperium from the perspective of someone in a vaguely upper-middle class strata of the Imperium reinforces just how powerful they are. 

In the Vaults of Terra series an Inquisitor raids an Arbites fortress without fear of retribution. On Alectio a single Arbitrator is cause for concern, let alone an Inquisitor.

So yeah, I liked it.

 

Semi-related but I've been looking at the worlds mentioned in Flesh and Steel. Alectio's placement in the Warhammer universe is left intentionally vague as a story device to reinforce just how far out of the know these relatively low level protagonists are - but there are clues.

 

Zhao-Arkhad is mentioned, as is Mordia, as is Paragon. Paragon is placed in either Pacificus or Tempestus, Mordia is placed in Obscurus, Zhaos Arkhad is placed in Tempestus but is known to be close to the border of Obscurus. 

Since the story takes place after the Great Rift and Alectio isn't crawling with Daemons I think it's safe to say it's on the 'better' side of the galaxy right now. My money is on Tempestus.

[aa.logan]

I’m going to put a non-spoiler point in spoiler tags because it’s pretty heavy going and not everyone might want to read a reference to real-world personal events. Consider this a content warning of sorts.

 

I waffle vaguely before making the same ham-fisted point repeatedly, so I might not be best placed to discuss the use of language, especially with someone who is being more articulate than I am in their non-native tongue, but I’ve got to strongly object to the portrayal of Solaris being described as ‘violently homophobic’. Violent homophobia has a very literal meaning to me, something that has manifested in beatings and even sexual assaults in the lives of me and mine. House Solaris veering into misanthropic caricature might be distasteful, and is arguably homophobic, but it sure isn’t *violent*.

 

It might feel minor, but I think the distinction needs to be made.

 

 

.

 

I’m standing by my interpretation that Solaris aren’t anti-men, they’re just anti-outsider.

 

I didn’t read the Khan/Fulgrim exchange as necessarily a ‘gay joke’; more two (asexual? Certainly they transcend human mortal conceptions of sexuality) people joking awkwardly with each other; Fulgrim ‘started’ it but it has the feel of a well-worn exchange between two long associates mocking preconceptions of the other- they’ve arguably acted out the same parts upon every meeting. They’re going through the motions of what is expected of them, and as has been mentioned are above such concepts as we understand them. Though obviously authorial intent doesn’t always match impact.

 

Sexuality, in the broadest terms of an individual having sexual desires/appetites/agency is, for whatever reason, largely absent from BL fiction- Abnett is often good for at the very least the implication of romantic relationships, and the Ghosts, say, are presented as having a life beyond the battlefield with their extensive cohort of camp followers, but the recent shift to ‘domestic 40k’ is allowing more of this sort of thing to be portrayed.

 

Thinking about it, it’s perhaps as refreshing that both Noctis and Lux refer to sexual attraction as it is to see Pravinus. In earlier books, we might get a corpulent planetary governor draped with scantily clad consorts or a small family unit that is presumably the result of sexual intercourse once for each child, now we’re getting characters who are fleshed out in more realistic ways.

 

Th Solaris/Pravinus comparisons are perhaps natural, they’re both rare portrayals of non-straight characters from the same author, but it does also feel a little like comparing apples and oranges- they both exist in very different contexts. StrangerOrders is right, there is a paucity of lesbian representation in media, and the point about Pravinus and family is an interesting one. I read Guy’s making him gay to be a way of making him, like Noctis, something of an outsider within the family. He may well be super loyal and dedicated to the preservation of their social standing, but in what is presumably a traditional dynasty, he is failing in his ‘duties’ as much as his cousin is- unlike the head of the family, neither of them seem to be siring multiple heirs.

 

In another intrusion into the real world, I wonder how significant where Guy lives is in his portrayal of lesbians? In a totally non-stalker way, I know that he’s from and I think still lives in Hebden Bridge- for those unaware, a small town with famously disproportionately high lesbian population. It’s a great place. I’m not saying that everyone there lives in blissful harmony, but this might influence his portrayal somewhat.

 

I can still rattle of the list of overtly queer characters in 40k books from memory, but I’m pretty sure that soon I won’t be able to- reprentation is increasing, and I love that. I look at Pravinus and see a character who might be a self-indulgent fop, but one who expresses genuine desires- same with gals from Solaris. We still don’t get explicit sex scenes, and I’m glad of that, TBH, but the mere presence of sexuality being more than an abstract concept is personally satisfying.

 

Jafar is an interesting character to bring up. I place him on the same axis of heterosexuality as Prince- wonderfully non-conformist but aggressively straight in practice. Like Pravinus though, they’re all sexually active and don’t really hide the fact, and that sets them apart from others more than their pencil moustaches and outrageous clothes. They are more *fun* than any number of oiled and clumsily homoerotic marines and I, for one, welcome our new flamboyant overlords.

 

In terms of StangersOrders spoilers:

 

Pravinus allowing the family to be disrespected by the scary casino guy is down to his pragmatism, surely. They live in an extremely hierarchical society, and while the gangster isn’t ‘old money’ as it were, Pravinus knows his place- this is a private exchange, he has no face to lose- he’d likely be as deferential and meek in a private audience with the planetary governor where the threat of violence might not be as explicit but still there. For all his wealth and status he is in awe of the alleged ex-servitor whose name currently escapes me, right from his first incidental mention. Part of that must be due to the thrill and danger in ‘slumming it’; the fact that there is power beyond mere massive wealth on Varagantua also taps into the themes and threads in the other stories in No Good Men- there are shadowy movers and shakers, operating beyond the probators and above the Arbites even. Pravinus might be a pampered and proud fop, but he isn’t shown to be stupid

[DukeLeto69]

@Hasoroth great detective work re location of Alecto. You are right it is in Tempestus as Chris Wraight confirmed that to me on Twitter back when Bloodlines came out.

[StrangerOrders]

I’m going to put a non-spoiler point in spoiler tags because it’s pretty heavy going and not everyone might want to read a reference to real-world personal events. Consider this a content warning of sorts.

 

I waffle vaguely before making the same ham-fisted point repeatedly, so I might not be best placed to discuss the use of language, especially with someone who is being more articulate than I am in their non-native tongue, but I’ve got to strongly object to the portrayal of Solaris being described as ‘violently homophobic’. Violent homophobia has a very literal meaning to me, something that has manifested in beatings and even sexual assaults in the lives of me and mine. House Solaris veering into misanthropic caricature might be distasteful, and is arguably homophobic, but it sure isn’t *violent*.

 

It might feel minor, but I think the distinction needs to be made.

 

 

.

 

I’m standing by my interpretation that Solaris aren’t anti-men, they’re just anti-outsider.

 

I didn’t read the Khan/Fulgrim exchange as necessarily a ‘gay joke’; more two (asexual? Certainly they transcend human mortal conceptions of sexuality) people joking awkwardly with each other; Fulgrim ‘started’ it but it has the feel of a well-worn exchange between two long associates mocking preconceptions of the other- they’ve arguably acted out the same parts upon every meeting. They’re going through the motions of what is expected of them, and as has been mentioned are above such concepts as we understand them. Though obviously authorial intent doesn’t always match impact.

 

Sexuality, in the broadest terms of an individual having sexual desires/appetites/agency is, for whatever reason, largely absent from BL fiction- Abnett is often good for at the very least the implication of romantic relationships, and the Ghosts, say, are presented as having a life beyond the battlefield with their extensive cohort of camp followers, but the recent shift to ‘domestic 40k’ is allowing more of this sort of thing to be portrayed.

 

Thinking about it, it’s perhaps as refreshing that both Noctis and Lux refer to sexual attraction as it is to see Pravinus. In earlier books, we might get a corpulent planetary governor draped with scantily clad consorts or a small family unit that is presumably the result of sexual intercourse once for each child, now we’re getting characters who are fleshed out in more realistic ways.

 

Th Solaris/Pravinus comparisons are perhaps natural, they’re both rare portrayals of non-straight characters from the same author, but it does also feel a little like comparing apples and oranges- they both exist in very different contexts. StrangerOrders is right, there is a paucity of lesbian representation in media, and the point about Pravinus and family is an interesting one. I read Guy’s making him gay to be a way of making him, like Noctis, something of an outsider within the family. He may well be super loyal and dedicated to the preservation of their social standing, but in what is presumably a traditional dynasty, he is failing in his ‘duties’ as much as his cousin is- unlike the head of the family, neither of them seem to be siring multiple heirs.

 

In another intrusion into the real world, I wonder how significant where Guy lives is in his portrayal of lesbians? In a totally non-stalker way, I know that he’s from and I think still lives in Hebden Bridge- for those unaware, a small town with famously disproportionately high lesbian population. It’s a great place. I’m not saying that everyone there lives in blissful harmony, but this might influence his portrayal somewhat.

 

I can still rattle of the list of overtly queer characters in 40k books from memory, but I’m pretty sure that soon I won’t be able to- reprentation is increasing, and I love that. I look at Pravinus and see a character who might be a self-indulgent fop, but one who expresses genuine desires- same with gals from Solaris. We still don’t get explicit sex scenes, and I’m glad of that, TBH, but the mere presence of sexuality being more than an abstract concept is personally satisfying.

 

Jafar is an interesting character to bring up. I place him on the same axis of heterosexuality as Prince- wonderfully non-conformist but aggressively straight in practice. Like Pravinus though, they’re all sexually active and don’t really hide the fact, and that sets them apart from others more than their pencil moustaches and outrageous clothes. They are more *fun* than any number of oiled and clumsily homoerotic marines and I, for one, welcome our new flamboyant overlords.

 

In terms of StangersOrders spoilers:

 

Pravinus allowing the family to be disrespected by the scary casino guy is down to his pragmatism, surely. They live in an extremely hierarchical society, and while the gangster isn’t ‘old money’ as it were, Pravinus knows his place- this is a private exchange, he has no face to lose- he’d likely be as deferential and meek in a private audience with the planetary governor where the threat of violence might not be as explicit but still there. For all his wealth and status he is in awe of the alleged ex-servitor whose name currently escapes me, right from his first incidental mention. Part of that must be due to the thrill and danger in ‘slumming it’; the fact that there is power beyond mere massive wealth on Varagantua also taps into the themes and threads in the other stories in No Good Men- there are shadowy movers and shakers, operating beyond the probators and above the Arbites even. Pravinus might be a pampered and proud fop, but he isn’t shown to be stupid

Want to apologize if the language got to you, it was insensitive of me and I admit I got a bit angry by the time I got to that part of the thread (hence why I was apologizing that it was a bit ranty). Thats not an excuse though, I should have been aware enough to realize that literal violence is a very real component in the discrimination faced by some people. So I own up to that and hope you can accept my apology there.

 

Will note that the Fulgrim joke ended with Fulgrim going for his sword and Sangi having to step in to keep it from getting violent though, so I would hesitate to say he took it well.

 

Regarding sexuality though, since this is an interesting subject and one that this book does tease at (hence its still on topic, please dont execute me for my transgressions oh mighty mods!) and is interesting to discuss in the context of 40k and, again and I fear this is becoming my bit, relative cultural bias.

 

I never really noticed sexuality much in 40k but then again I don't tend to notice it much unless its literally mentioned and even then I don't tend to pay it that much mind in terms of the character's actual opinion of their lover. Mostly because there is a bit of an issue with me and alot of english literature and media in terms of love, which 40k is actually not that irregular with for me (I hinted at this earlier about familial love). There is a strange mix of fear and erotization of love in english media for me, and the fact that sentence comes out sounding the way it does is sort of indicative. And there is a weird inability to discuss love outside the sexual in alot of cases, especially in anything that is not a literal romance novel. Its actually telling that I can remember more incestual relationships in 40k (and I do sort of count EC here) than healthy familial ones, although there is a fetishization of killing parents in alot of media or making them so terrible that its a wonder they dont come with great demonic horns that I could talk about but thats another subject. Won't even touch on the fact that the most evident family interactions in 40k are the Primarch's disturbing Prolicidal tendencies and the casual willingness of everything and everyone towards fratricide. 

 

This stretches to marines homoeroticism alot for me, because its something I only really see when I put on my 'Canadian Glasses' so to speak. But then again, there is a certain crippling fear and automatic sexualization of physical contact and the concept of love that doesnt involve a fist or sex inherent in the worldview. Everything that involves two people admiring their own or each other's bodies has this automatic clause of 'oh they are going to do it guys!' in english media that actually hurt me alot growing up in the 90s, being a kid starting to go to school with a 'you are supposed to hug your friends' mindset got a real target mark painted on me real quick let me tell you. And I'll never forget how shocked I was by the sight of boys (well teens) shaking their fathers' hands, which just stirred this sort of primeval 'what am I looking at?' confusion in me that really hurt me in retrospect. I actually find the stand-offishness, obsessively stringent social code and 'intent in giant glowing letters' culture in Japan to be more tolerable and comfortable funnily enough, its cold to be sure but there is alot less of a sort of 'mixed signals of infinite confusion' thing going on.

 

Thats not to say I don't get it, far from, but it did alot to shape why I like 40k in part, the familiarity between alot of loyalist marine characters was and still is oddly comforting for me, although I find BLs take on them as 'family' to be woefully lacking. I believe them as actual 'friends' more often than not and their fixation on their bodies to be fairly natural. This also ties into their relationship with nudity, another subject I really dislike the anglosphere's take on but I dont want to open that can of worms, and comfort in their own skin. 

 

Like I am definitely sure its homoerotic and that it was written with that intent, but I am just explaining how it hits me differently. 

 

No worries on the language thing btw, I wasn't born in the anglosphere but I was raised in it and English is about the only language I consider myself reasonably eloquent in. I can get by professionally in Japanese and French but my Spanish is a source of regular humor in familial webchats as well as my complete inability to grasp slang lol. Cultural bias is a favorite subject for me but I do consider myself Canadian more than anything else (gripes and all). 

 

But on the whole, I did actually like how Haley tackled the subject in this book and found its more hammy parts more endearing and sweet than jarring I admit. Lux and Noctis's scene in the bar in particular was really sweet. Although I reiterate that Pravinus's relationship with him was my favorite, since its nice to see 40k cousins acting like proper cousins.

 

Its worth noting from the intro scene with him though that he is in good standing with his family, since he knows everyone and gets along with them whereas they look at Noctis with mild disdain or like a particularly troublesome puppy. Also, as we know from alot of stuff including Titandeath, I sort of suspect that Pravinus's preferences arent really a problematic factor in terms of his use for alliances. They can probably take his sperm and generate any number of children with it crossed with someone else, I had sort of figured his current freedom was more the result of being a late child of a younger sibling than the heir in a massive family. Sort of figured he was high enough for privilege but low enough to escape any real obligation (even Noctis's biggest indiscretion had alot more to do with what than who, Pravinus might engage in similar activities but he doesnt escalate them to anything dangerous).

 

For anyone who is in here for some reason and hasnt read it, I must stress again that it is a worthy buy. As I said before Haley is developing into a hell of a writer beyond the whole 'fast guy' bit he's been stuck with for a while!

[Scribe]

Canadian? I knew you were a person of culture. ;)

 

I will say a lot of what you are speaking to seems to just be a north American thing, maybe?

 

I don't hug my dad. Can't remember last time I did.

 

Big topic though.

Edited October 22, 2020 by Scribe

[Fedor]

Not read this yet so nothing much to contribute, but just wanted to say i thought the Khan joke about Fulgrim was hinting at the experimentation by Fabius, given it was said in the context of bespoke modifications. Some of the fanbase taking it as a gay joke on places like 40klore said more about the immaturity of the fanbase - albeit not helped by the way GW has sometimes portrayed the EC and Slaanesh -  than Wraight's likely intentions imo.

[Urauloth]

That's the logical interpretation, but Laurie Goulding insisted it was a gay joke, which is why it still comes up all these years later.

[Fedor]

Ah, now that i didn't know. Looked it up there and it seems it was posted on his old forum while discussing possible continuity issues regarding said logical interpretation.

 

How disappointing.

[Petitioner's City]

Well I'm glad that with this, Road to Redemption, Rites of Passage and so on, there is a better attitude in BL it seems (although I'm confused by what happened with Parrott).

[SkimaskMohawk]

I think it's safe to ignore what Laurie golding says. He pretty much just damaged the setting every time he opened his mouth.

[StrangerOrders]

No idea who Golding is.

 

As for the source of the association, its because Wraight messed up the timeline, body-enhancements among the 3rd didnt start until after Ullanor which is where the scene takes place.

 

Worth noting that Reynolds tried to patch this by having Fulgrim give consent to Fabius continuing to study into ways of preventing a Blight resurgence in his Primarch novel.

 

Although its up to you whether you think it does the Khan more favors to be mocking a cancer victim for the desperate measures he takes to avoid a relapse or to call his brother an incestuous abuser or threatening his brother with death (the usual reaction to altering Astartes).

 

I went back and reread that scene and I will be honest, there is not a reading where it does not come across as the Khan being a pretty thin-skinned jerk about it. Fulgrim was teasing him pretty hard but he was swinging back in equal measure, then he decided to more or less escalate it to 11 for no reason. Although I would argue that it is a running undercurrent to the WS 'trilogy' that the Khan has a pretty subtle inferiority-complex which his sons largely lack (at worse, they are self-conscious), since he complains about being misunderstood and not talked about but by that same token is pretty quick to make pretty ignorant critiques of everyone/thing. 

 

Wraight is fond of these more subtle things though, especially looking at his work with the Vaults series and his Custodians work (Valdor in particular is sort of the epitome of 'introspection =/= self-awareness' and Wraight is really brilliant with him especially in contrast to Valerian).

 

I sort of think Reynolds was lampooning that scene a bit in the Palatine Phoenix since its more or less a thesis on how incredibly little the Khan knows about Fulgrim.

 

All that being said, I want to spin this a little bit back on topic.

 

One of my favorite bits in this book and Bloodlines (havent read the anthology yet) is how brilliantly Wraight and Haley have been using ignorance as a tool for worldbuilding. Its old-hat for Wraight (and one of his greatest strengths) but Haley is also doing very well with it. The conversation around cats in particular is funny to be sure, but also a brilliant bit of extrapolation and creativity.

Edited October 24, 2020 by StrangerOrders

[Petitioner's City]

Laurie Goulding was the (or a) BL heresy editor, StrangerOrders, in the early to mid 2010s - he was a significant person for a while, then got a fancy US job for Riot Games I think.

 

I think it's important to read beyond the books themselves and who does what behind them I wish this information was better available though, as well as what those processes involve.

[SkimaskMohawk]

He was also notable for hating the fan base lol

[StrangerOrders]

He was also notable for hating the fan base lol

Oof, I am assuming you mean he disliked more than that really iffy minority we give way too much attention to? 

 

I dont look much into the exact structure of the companies behind franchises I like but its always weird to me to hear that someone would willingly involve themselves with such an immersive job as an editor in something they seem to hate. Creative jobs sort of seem like the worst place to be if it doesnt work for you. Although it makes alot of their sloppy editing make a weird amount of sense in retrospect. 

 

 

Laurie Goulding was the (or a) BL heresy editor, StrangerOrders, in the early to mid 2010s - he was a significant person for a while, then got a fancy US job for Riot Games I think.

 

I think it's important to read beyond the books themselves and who does what behind them I wish this information was better available though, as well as what those processes involve.

Ty for the info, didnt mean to imply it was irrelevant but I just honestly didnt know about the guy. I like the fluff and am willing to go deep on it, with a few steps more for distinct writers.

 

Editors, studios, actors, thats the part of most anything where I sort of wave my 'too deep for me' flag. Not that it isnt important, just that its where it ceases to be a fun release for me. I can get passionate about a debate on the nature of the soul of Fenris, the theology of the Mechanicus/Mechanicum/DM or the various pros and cons of the Imperium during the Unity-Period as well as the values of gender identity in the Imperium. But the second we get into the public opinions of a specific editor my eyes sort of glaze over.

 

I will gladly eat it in bite-sized chunks but its just not something I pay much attention too, forgive my ignorance there