Codex Space Marines internal balance between units

[Captain Idaho]

I'm going to start off by explicitly stating this is NOT a bashing thread. Let's not ruin it with attacks on Firstborn or Primaris. There's room for each in the hobby and both make for stunning looking armies.

 

The topic of discussion is going to be the dynamic within the latest Codex regarding balance. One thing I've noticed is a lot of in-built abilities for existing Primaris units appear to have been moved to Strategum support or removed, whilst a few Firstborn units are the reverse.

 

It's early days and I find it easiest to make a comprehensive comparison or discussion with the Codex in hand instead of relying on a review online, of course. However, I have noticed (as an example) Aggressors have lost their abilities on the Datasheets, yet the lion's share of Strategum support is for Primaris.

 

Conversely, Dreadnoughts (though the Redemptor included it is more widely for the original stuff), Hunters, Stalkers and Land Speeders all have abilities included in their Datasheets but fewer Firstborn units can take advantage of Strategum support like Primaris can, with stuff like Gravitic Amplification completely removed.

 

Overall I think it kinda works. There are reasons to take many units from both old and new, with a different emphasis on each type. It would be nice for Terminators to get Transhuman Physiology, but then if Assault Terminators used that particular Strategum the game would suffer for the imbalance issues. Likewise it would also be nice for Aggressors to shoot twice and advance and fire without penalty, but the game is similarly hurt there.

 

One feeling right now is Firstborn feel naturally more competitive going by pure Datasheets and points costs, but some of those Strategums Primaris can use really makes up for it.

 

Using an example from another thread, Attack Bikes have many advantages over Eradicators (even though it's Fast Attack vs Heavy Support), yet the potential from Strategum support seems to sit with Eradicators, being cheaper in points costs.

 

So it's a case of more Command Points to boost units up or a slightly better stock datasheet.

 

Another good comparison, clearer for sure, is Sternguard and Veteran Intercessors. The Sternguard lost their Strategum support whereas Veteran Intercessors still get it, from Transhuman Physiology as well as Gene Wrought Might. Sternguard are the big losers, right? Well no. As stock they are weaker but invest points in them and you have a dangerous shooting unit with solid melee potential.

 

You pay the points for competitive Firstborn or you spend the Command Points on boosting Primaris.

 

Or mix the 2, which is extremely competitive potentially.

 

Like I said, things are early stages and we need to see how things unfold. Right now I'd not want to definitively state what's best and the margins between units are fairly small so even if an Attack Bike is much more effective in lists that don't use Fast Attack otherwise, versus Eradicators, the latter will still be a solid investment.

 

What are folks' thoughts retarding this subject?

[Prot]

To me I don't see an issue with Primaris vs. First Born. Both have strong use case scenarios.

 

The disconnect for me is between all infantry and all/most vehicles. And it goes well beyond the issue of individual stats. The disconnect is exasperated by massive buffs to Apothecaries, Chaplains, and the Core keyword combined. 

 

The biggest negatives seem to be all non-Dreadnought Primaris Chassis.

 

The good news is you are going to do just fine with a backbone of Primaris/First Born units, especially infantry. Character support has moved from obvious 'I hit a lot more in a castle' scenarios towards survivability and flavour. 

 

Ironically most of the new units (post Indomitus) are so far off the 'competitive' scale, that I believe someone could go through their 5-10 year old marine collection, not buy a single new unit, and do just fine.

Edited October 5, 2020 by Prot

[WrathOfTheLion]

I wonder if they're trying to go to a mixed force in general. With the massive expansion to Dark Angels Deathwing and Ravenwing for instance, it makes me thing they're going to want to push those subfactions to have a lot more variance with both Primaris and firstborn kits.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

It does seem like they gave primaris more stratagems to make up for the lack of flexibility. Firstborn did pickup the melta bomb stratagem though and that one is great.

 

IMO Firstborn definitely are overall stronger which feels normal to be honest. I think GW is going to have a lot of trouble selling some of the new stuff because the amount of good melta units is going hurt vehicles in general.

[Captain Idaho]

Firstborn definitely feel strong overall, with general boosts to units outside the previously considered overpowered elements (Gravitic Amplification was horrendously over the top on Devastators). Vanguard Veterans still seem the most competitive option but now additional units have a place.

 

I certainly don't believe it's a Firstborn vs Primaris situation. The book seems to cater to both but lean towards Primaris with Strategum support and powerful options and Datasheets for Firstborn.

 

The competitive scene is all over the place now but I can see combined lists working a lot more.

 

Primaris still feel strong to me, but I do concede the Reivers and vehicle Datasheets feel lacking. Gladiators are 230pts, right? Which to me seems to expensive to be competitive as a gut reaction (I've not properly seen their Datasheets) especially when you compare those tanks with the now amazing Predator Destructor with Heavy Bolters.

[Karhedron]

Vehicles seem on the pricey side. Maybe this is compensation for the fact they can now move and fire without penalty but the increase in melta makes it seem like this is a dangerous edition for any vehicle without special defence rules.

 

I think that there is much to take in and it will be a while before the overall effect lot of the changes becomes clear. What is clear though is that GW are not afraid to make sweeping changes to to get the games playing the way they feel it should.

[bigtrouble]

Nice combination of changes to make firstborn more playable, and to simplify stratagems. The extra wound, giving terminators a new cool ability, moving some “auto” strats to rules. All good.

 

The imbalances left are point cost for armor/anti-armor. Some of these don’t make sense.

[Dracos]

Grumbling

 

Codex doesn’t hit our LGS until Tuesday apparently.

 

Way to support your largest retail group GW :(

[9x19 Parabellum]

Let's not disregard the fact that those Gladiator chassis are T8, meaning half the melta shots that do hit are failing to wound.  That's not insignificant. I'm not saying it's perfectly balanced mind you but it's been a while since we saw a true T8 battle tank in the low 200's.

[Oxydo]

That's not insignificant. I'm not saying it's perfectly balanced mind you but it's been a while since we saw a true T8 battle tank in the low 200's.

 

sad vindicator noises

[9x19 Parabellum]

Vindicator isn't what I would call a battle line tank. I'd call it more like a short range artillery gun.

 

But regardless, the Vindicator suffered from swingy damage and the ease of getting shut down in close combat, which is why we didn't see it much in 8th. Had nothing to do with durability. Not sure if that will change for 9th, but the reactive Smokescreen stratagem will make these guys really tough to take down. T8, -1 to hit? Yes please!

Edited October 10, 2020 by 9x19 Parabellum

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

Firstborn definitely feel strong overall, with general boosts to units outside the previously considered overpowered elements (Gravitic Amplification was horrendously over the top on Devastators). Vanguard Veterans still seem the most competitive option but now additional units have a place.

 

I certainly don't believe it's a Firstborn vs Primaris situation. The book seems to cater to both but lean towards Primaris with Strategum support and powerful options and Datasheets for Firstborn.

 

The competitive scene is all over the place now but I can see combined lists working a lot more.

 

Primaris still feel strong to me, but I do concede the Reivers and vehicle Datasheets feel lacking. Gladiators are 230pts, right? Which to me seems to expensive to be competitive as a gut reaction (I've not properly seen their Datasheets) especially when you compare those tanks with the now amazing Predator Destructor with Heavy Bolters.

Combined lists are definitely the most competitive way to play, I just tend to think the first born got the better design this time around. I would much rather rely on data sheets than stratagems, because their obviously more consistent, and don't cause as many gotcha moments that lead to bad play experiences.

[9x19 Parabellum]

Depends on each battlefield role though don't you think? For troops I think I'd rather have intercessors (of some variant or another) than Tac, since extra wound and better gun is well worth the 1 to 2 points you are going to pay (especially with the stratagem support). 

 

On the other hand, Devastators at 18 ppm, with their selection of great heavy weapons and ability to deploy in cheaper transports seem like they are winning out over certainly Hellblasters, and possibly even Eradicators in the final calculus.  They have the 2nd wound, which is great for durability, and are not paying baked in costs for a largely unnecessary useless 2nd attack. 

[Paulinus]

Some first born options seem pretty good.

 

Company vets. Let’s you use an apothecary, a champion and an ancient without having to use a battlefield slot.

 

Not too shabby if you want to make those elite slots go further.

 

And the vets won’t take up a slot of you have a captain.

[Schlitzaf]

Depends on each battlefield role though don't you think? For troops I think I'd rather have intercessors (of some variant or another) than Tac, since extra wound and better gun is well worth the 1 to 2 points you are going to pay (especially with the stratagem support).

 

On the other hand, Devastators at 18 ppm, with their selection of great heavy weapons and ability to deploy in cheaper transports seem like they are winning out over certainly Hellblasters, and possibly even Eradicators in the final calculus. They have the 2nd wound, which is great for durability, and are not paying baked in costs for a largely unnecessary useless 2nd attack.

Firstborn and Primaris have the same wound count

[Snazzy]

Vehicles seem on the pricey side. Maybe this is compensation for the fact they can now move and fire without penalty but the increase in melta makes it seem like this is a dangerous edition for any vehicle without special defence rules.

 

Melta is so strong now that i genuinely question the wisdom of taking any vehicle besides Rhino metal boxes.

[9x19 Parabellum]

 

Vehicles seem on the pricey side. Maybe this is compensation for the fact they can now move and fire without penalty but the increase in melta makes it seem like this is a dangerous edition for any vehicle without special defence rules.

 

Melta is so strong now that i genuinely question the wisdom of taking any vehicle besides Rhino metal boxes.

 

 

Dreadnoughts have built in duty eternal, reducing damage by 1.  3 of the 5 also have the smokescreen to confer a -1 penalty to hit, which you no longer have to sacrifice your shooting to use.  Contemptor has 5++, Venerable has 6+ FnP, Ironclad has T8 (shifting the wound bracket of melta guns) and Redemptor has a butt load of wounds.  An equal number of eradicators (4), fires 8 shots and:

 - vs. Regular Dread 4 hits, 2.67 wounds, 6.67 damage

 - vs. Red Dread 5.33 hits, 3.55 wounds, 8.875 damage

 - vs. Venerable 4 hits, 2.67 wounds, 6.67 damage, 5.53 after FnP damage

 - vs. Contemptor, 5.33 hits, 3.55 wounds, 2.37 unsaved wounds, 5.9 damage

 - vs. Ironclad, 4 hits, 2 wounds, 5 damage

 

So using all their defenses, every Dreadnought can survive against an equally pointed number of Eradicators.

 

The gladiators are all T8 and have the smokescreen key word if they take autolaunchers. 6 eradicators (~ same cost) is 12 shots, 6 of which hit, 3 of which wound, 10.5 damage, which does not kill the tank. 

 

And this analysis is being done with eradicators which are generally considered the breakout (read: OP) unit of Indomitus right now meaning they are bound to see a nerf/points increase.

 

I think as it stands the meta will shake out to take one Dreadnought with Smokelaunchers and either a Redemptor or Contemptor if you want another one (each with their own defense profile that doesn't rely on smoke launcher for the stratagem) and possibly a T8 tank.  I certainly wouldn't go overboard on vehicles though, for a variety of reasons (core keyword, etc.)  But with Dreadnoughts being core, and how awesome the Wisdom of the Ancients stratagem is, I think every Marine list should take a Dread.

[Medicinal Carrots]

It feels like most infantry, bike, and dread units have a place now. Intercessors and Tac Squads are both valid troop choices, Attack Bikes and Eradicators are both good melta platforms, etc. There are some that I think fall short of the mark. I'd rather have regular Intercessors or Vanguard over Vet Intercessors, Scouts and Scout Bikes don't seem to have much use, etc.

 

Vehicles are another story. The number of viable non-dread vehicles seems very low. Aside from transports, I think Whirlwinds, Hunters, and basic Land Speeders may see some use. Other than those, they all seem overcosted, undergunned, and/or too easy to kill compared to taking dreads, infantry, or bikes.

Edited October 11, 2020 by Medicinal Carrots

[Karhedron]

I am in reluctant agreement. Looks like my Land Raider squadron is not going to be seeing much action this edition.

 

Maybe a Jump Libby with Psychic Fortress to give them a 5++ has mileage.

[Volt]

Feels like everything has gotten a solid uptick in regards to infantry besides Relic Terminators. Reivers and Bolt Aggressors feel like the biggest losers though in regards to infantry. Vehicles overall have been shafted but that's going to be for all armies persuasively so not that bad. Some Primaris tanks got it bad like the Executioner, but I suspect that some of the new Gladiators will do alright, and the Primaris Speeder is looking very strong with the amount of melta fire it can put out. Eradicators, especially on smaller boards, are now a must-take unit for reserve surprise with heavy melta rifles being able to pulverize most things they look at. I think Vindicators though are still doing alright because of that combined fire stratagem still existing (iirc), as two Vindicators can pump out the closest thing you can get to blast these days.

 

Dreads however are the biggest winners. Their ability to universally reduce damage is incredible and they were already a supremely strong unit in 8e. If anything in 9e they'll be even more potent.

[Karhedron]

I think Whirlwinds will still see play. The combination of indirect fire and a stratagem to turn off overwatch means it has pretty good utility for 125 points and does not need to be directly exposed to enemy fire. Many armies put a fairly basic unit to hold their home objective and the WW can just plink away at that all game.

[Kallas]

I am in reluctant agreement. Looks like my Land Raider squadron is not going to be seeing much action this edition.

 

Maybe a Jump Libby with Psychic Fortress to give them a 5++ has mileage.

 

I'm waiting to see what the Forgeworld book does for the Helios. Otherwise, yeah, Raiders are still a bit crap.

 

They just don't have particularly good firepower; they transport stuff but aren't particularly good at that because they're slow (and degrade hard) without being resilient; and they are still expensive.

 

It's much better to have two Razorbacks and some spare change, which makes me sad for the Land Raider 

[Captain Idaho]

Quite enjoying my Predator Destructor actually. Heavy bolters going to D2 and the Predator Autocannon means it is an Infantry threat to Marines whilst also threatening vehicles.

 

Weakest part of it is splitting fire is very ineffective despite the large number of shots, but if it concentrates on a single target it can do some decent work.