New vehicles & co

[BolterZorro]

This topic is about the new entries but not infantry.

So, mostly the quad, the landspeeder and the tank.

To be honnest, I only ordered the new chaplain on bike to complete my already large primaris collection.

I don't have the new codex but visually, I like the landspeeder and strategically, I like FLY and fast moving fire support of this 3 builds landspeeder.

Now that you have the codex and points, 

 

- What do you guys think about it?

- what's about the gladiator?

- how does the landspeeder compare to the quad? For example 2 LS vs 3 quads (I don't have the exact points)?

 

 

[Burni]

Not a rules guy, but I will say that aesthetically the Gladiator might be my favourite Space Marine vehicle after the drop pod. It fixes the issues I’ve always had with the Predator: it’s too tall for its length and the sponsors look like an after thought.

 

I think I’ll be building the Reaper just so the inner Ork in me can roll lots of dice!

 

I’m not convinced with the Speeder. Never been a big fan of how they look (apart from the Storm) And these dial that look up to 11

 

I’m indifferent on the ATV. The driver looks silly down there but I still prefer it to the attack bike. I’ve order one to accompany my Outriders.

[Ishagu]

The Gladiator is very good, but not all the variants.

 

The Gladiator Lancer is a waste of points, and inferior to a standard Predator. Don't take this version, even though it looks so great.

 

The Reaper and the Valliant on the other hand are fantastic.

These are T8 vehicles with lots of firepower, and can be boosted by the smokescreen Strat in conjunction with Psychic Fortress.

 

-The Reaper will do great work at thinning infantry and even chopping away light vehicles with the sheer volume of shots.

 

-The Valliant is very scary to any other vehicle, monster or even elite infantry squad that it gets into range to hit. Back in 8th the relative short range would have been a deal breaker, but now with the smaller boards and objectives that push armies into the mid table it's very usable as a bully style unit.

 

The new speeders are good, but I don't think I'll get a chance to try them. The most useful variants are the Hammerstrike and Thunderstrike, with the Thunderstrike being the most useful thanks to the added range and bonus to hit against flyers, with no penalties against regular units.

 

The little ATVs are amazing units, really competitive. I don't like the model however, so I won't be investing in them. Maybe I'll change my mind after I've seen one in person - sometimes I've liked models a lot more when I've held them - Aggressors being a chief example of this.

Edited October 6, 2020 by Ishagu

[Karhedron]

Not fond of the looks of the ATV but rules wise it looks solid. I believe the OGC is going to Heavy 8 so you get quite a lot dakka on a reasonably durable and mobile non-degrading platform. The real possibility for these at the moment is the ability to abuse Master Apothecary + Selfless Healer + Combat Revival on a squadron of 3 to resurrect a destroyed ATV on full wounds! I would not be surprised if this gets FAQed but as it stands it is really funny that a destroyed ATV can explode and then be immeadiately be rebuilt to full health by an Apothecary.

 

The Galdiators seem a bit pricier than I expected, probably as they have been costed to take account of the fact they can move and fire at full effect. The Lancer looks anaemic and inferior to a Quad-las Predator. The Reaper looks nice with enough dakka to make a Mekboy blush. Marines are not short of dakka platforms but the Reaper is heavily loaded. The problem with the Reaper for me is that for an extra 50-ish points you can get a Repulsor with 4 extra wounds, a similar level of dakka and a Transport capacity of 10. The Valiant looks like the winner in my book as it is a dedicated tank-hunter with a solid number of AT shots and the speed to deliver them. The only trick is that with its short range, you may need a way to keep it alive after it unleashes its first salvo. I would honestly rate this over the more expensive Repulsor Executioner (now that the Execution has lost its double-fire ability).

 

The Speeders seem decent and are very well balanced against the existing "classic" Land Speeders. I am not convinced they are better value for points than Land Speeders but the models are way better. If you already have Landspeeders, I am not sure I would splash the cash to replace them, particularly as Landspeeders have flexible payloads whereas the Stormspeeders are locked. But if you are looking to buy new light vehicles, there are some decent options here.

[BolterZorro]

So, too bad the most effective has the less visual sex appeal.  (the quad)

I thought that the new landspeeder had a card to play in the primaris range with speed+fly, as a super mobile fire support unit but seeing that the codex and supplements tend to not add options to buff it may sign his absence on the battlefields.

Edited October 6, 2020 by BolterZorro

[Marshal Reinhard]

Was hoping my opinion on the ATV's appearance would change once I got to see the 360 degrees. Sadly I think its a lost cause...

 

I just don't feel like the composition works... it feels too much like a flat board with wheels, on which a gunner stands in the back, while the driver is so low down it feels like he's sinking into the ground. The lack of front armor save for that little piece in the middle, while the sides are just a solid (heck, its even fully enclosed in the back before the gunner platform begins...) also really feels unbalanced, and frankly uninspired with regards to the back. (maybe seeing more vehicle inside from that angle would've helped?)

 

I like the back turret on its own. so maybe if the vehicle itself was redone. If it resembled a real vehicle more? If the gunner was seated? I dunno. Right now its like a weird chariot that moves on its own rather than being pulled. It just feels "off". 

 

Also, I'm bothered by the fact that this seems to be literally the only Primaris model without a base. Even Primaris turrets and tanks gets bases (Save the new super turret), but this thing doesn't? That'd bother me if I were to get one.

Edited October 7, 2020 by Reinhard

[Burni]

Was hoping my opinion on the ATV's appearance would change once I got to see the 360 degrees. Sadly I think its a lost cause...

 

I just don't feel like composition works... it feels too much like a flat board with wheels, on which a gunner stands in the back, while the driver is so low down it feels like he's sinking into the ground. The lack of front armor save for that little piece in the middle, while the sides are just a solid (heck, its even fully enclosed in the back before the gunner platform begins...) also really feels unbalanced, and frankly uninspired with regards to the back. (maybe seeing more vehicle inside from that angle would've helped?)

 

I like the back turret on its own. so maybe if the vehicle itself was redone. If it resembled a real vehicle more? If the gunner was seated? I dunno. Right now its like a weird chariot that moves on its own rather than being pulled. It just feels "off". 

 

Also, I'm bothered by the fact that this seems to be literally the only Primaris model without a base. Even Primaris turrets and tanks gets bases (Save the new super turret), but this thing doesn't? That'd bother me if I were to get one.

Argh! No based really? I meant to check that. Like you say, it's the only Primaris thing without one! I wonder what size would fit it. I'll have to get one, I don't think I can put up with not having one.

[Mandragola]

I'm ordering myself one invader, for now. I don't hate the look as much as most people seem to. I have a vague idea to replace the crew with some spare Reiver bodies and Incursor heads. They look more like they should be vanguard units to me. A slightly less static pose for the gunner might be nice too.

 

I don't really know about the storm speeder and Gladiator. They both seem like glass cannons to me. The Lancer is obviously terrible for 200 points. The Valiant does have awesome firepower but 260 is just so much for something with no invulnerable. The Reaper has the same issue really. It's got really great dakka but I feel like I'd be better off getting that elsewhere, say with things like Redemptors - or just intercessors. 

[Ishagu]

They need to be supported.

 

It's easy enough to give them a 5++ and they can have a -1 to hit on top.

[Guest MistaGav]

I'm still not sure on what weapon to go for on the ATV between the Multi Melta or the OGC. The melta makes more sense for fast Anti tank and there is plenty of anti infantry stuff elsewhere in lists but then I do like dakka. For the stormspeeder I'm thinking Hammerstrike mainly for the missile launcher and melta array. Again, the other two variants don't really do it for me and dakka can be found elsewhere.

[Karhedron]

If you want fast Multimelta delivery I think Attack Bikes edge out Invaders. You can get 3 MM attack bikes for around the price of 2 MM Invaders which is 50% more firepower. Granted the Invaders are tougher with 33% more wounds but I am not sure this is the key. Neither unit is tough enough to hold together if the enemy really decides they want them dead. So I would opt for greater killing power in this instance.

[Jacques Corbin]

Wait, is the ATV a biker unit or a vehicle?

[Ishagu]

Wait, is the ATV a biker unit or a vehicle?

It's a biker. There's shenanigans as a result.

[Lord_Caerolion]

I can see it getting changed to being a Vehicle before too long.

[Guest MistaGav]

So OGC for the ATVS then? Can it still move and shoot heavy weapons without penalty without having the Vehicle keyword?

[Kyoujin]

So OGC for the ATVS then? Can it still move and shoot heavy weapons without penalty without having the Vehicle keyword?

No, it can't.  So the ATV will be hitting on 4+ or 5+ most of the time.  I'd give it a 50/50 chance that it will transform from BIKER to VEHICLE in the first faq though.  Eight wounds is a lot for a "bike", especially with the resurrection strat.  Maybe they'll just delete bikes from the strat though...it's GW.

[Dracos]

I definitely could see it having meant to be an an Infantry only keyword.

[WrathOfTheLion]

I think they will change the ATV to a vehicle, not remove bikers from the strategem.

 

Bikers will need to be there for it to be useful for the Ravenwing Apothecary, and it makes sense to remove the 'bad actor' so to say with the ATV.

 

8 wounds is a bit much in my opinion for something to be considered a biker.

Edited October 7, 2020 by WrathOfTheLion

[Oxydo]

 

So OGC for the ATVS then? Can it still move and shoot heavy weapons without penalty without having the Vehicle keyword?

No, it can't.  So the ATV will be hitting on 4+ or 5+ most of the time.  I'd give it a 50/50 chance that it will transform from BIKER to VEHICLE in the first faq though.  Eight wounds is a lot for a "bike", especially with the resurrection strat.  Maybe they'll just delete bikes from the strat though...it's GW.

 

 

The heavy weapon penalty is based on having the Infantry keyword, so the ATV doesn't get -1 for moving and shooting heavy weapons. Lets not forget that +/- to hit is capped at 1 either, so it would be hitting on 4+ at worst.

Edited October 7, 2020 by Oxydo

[Alcyon]

Eradicators (cheaper, more output, tougher) > Valiant, Hammerstrike, Lancer

Redemptor (Duty Eternal, less likely to inflict MW on explosion, good combat) > Reaper

 

Which is a big disappointment but there it is. Infantry are so good this edition between all the cover, specal rules, stratagems and multiple wounds and tanks are just big piles of wounds, hard to move around the table and more vulnerable to everything. The Speeders just seem to have low damage output for their points cost and smaller tables mean mobility is a bit less important, especially when they count as just one model for holding objectives. Eradicators are just too good from Strategic Reserves with their shoot twice rule and Multi-Meltas.

 

Someday if the rules change I think it'd be cool to run my army as Iron Hands with a Repulsor and a Valiant, maybe even a Thunder or Hammerstrike just because I like the models. But competitively? These are all dead in the water as long as Eradicators are so strong.

[Kyoujin]

 

 

So OGC for the ATVS then? Can it still move and shoot heavy weapons without penalty without having the Vehicle keyword?

No, it can't.  So the ATV will be hitting on 4+ or 5+ most of the time.  I'd give it a 50/50 chance that it will transform from BIKER to VEHICLE in the first faq though.  Eight wounds is a lot for a "bike", especially with the resurrection strat.  Maybe they'll just delete bikes from the strat though...it's GW.

 

 

The heavy weapon penalty is based on having the Infantry keyword, so the ATV doesn't get -1 for moving and shooting heavy weapons. Lets not forget that +/- to hit is capped at 1 either, so it would be hitting on 4+ at worst.

 

Good catch.  Luckily I despise wheeled bikes or I would have cheated myself by now. 

 

It's going to take a while to get used to the +/- 1 cap yet it seems.  Anyone else bugged by this change?  As an advancing meltagun, for example, you have the same chance to hit an unmoving target in the open as you do some Dingus Angel hiding in dense cover next to a Darkshroud.  One of these guys you can clearly see and the other should be damn near invisible...but hit probability remains the same.  Surely there was a way to fix penalty stacking that made more sense.

[Mandragola]

Remember that the chance to hit with a meltagun remains 0%. Nobody has ever hit a target with a meltagun. As you get within half range the chance to hit actually drops below 0%.

 

However, I'm not really sure there's a lot of point in invaders with OGCs. They're yet another source of dakka for marines - an army with a huge amount of dakka already. Specifically marines can take inceptors, each of which has almost as much dakka as an invader, for half the price. They're also infantry, which lets them do cool stuff, and they can fly and deep strike.

 

The multimelta one is ok. However, attack bikes exist and these things are basically just tougher versions of those. Attack bikes are probably just better I think.

[chapter master 454]

The Valiant is a victim of the game be bubbles and not oceans. It is meant to be a sniper tank, long range and just near impossible to deal with outside of similar gear. They would be a lot more threatening if they were able to sit at their full range and tank pot shots all day at your tanks and big stuff but in 40k, we deal with bubbles and not oceans.

 

The reaper I feel is good but I have to question why you would want to field it. Anti-Infantry is an area primaris excel at and never hurt for, between their bolt rifles and various other dakka options, always felt odd. The Lancer however is where real valube begins because it is what Primaris need, anti-tank and similarly I feel the same for the storm speeder (both the Thunderstrike and Hammerstrike). The Lancer packing that twin-lastalon is just terrifying and range is hardly an issue in this game (again, another reason the Valiant is sad). This similarly applies to the storm speeders, both having their places within the game though I would think the Hammerstrike has more of a place than the Thunderstrike but both are viable.

 

In regards to the ATB (All Terrain Bike since it isn't a vehicle...well within the game that matters) again, Anti-Infantry is a waste for such platforms and in Primaris where anti-tank has been starved from them it is just too valuable. This just gets compounded by their ability in melee being just as good at mercing infantry really, so they don't ever worry about it. Just tanks can't be punched so well.

[WrathOfTheLion]

Think the Storm Speeder variants are going to be much more useful for me than the Gladiator tanks. Especially with the improved Jink, getting the 5++ when moving with the option for the 4++ when advancing will be nice. Having the 5++ on turn 1 if going second will also be convenient. Although I'm not certain they will end up better than the LSV or some of the other things we already have access to. The ability isn't applied to them quite yet, but it will be eventually, with either further errata or the supplement.

But the invader ATV and Storm Speeder are nice in that they add quite a bit more variance to the Ravenwing range.

Edited October 8, 2020 by WrathOfTheLion