Highlights for White Scars

[Prot]

So as someone who really enjoyed White Scars' playstyle at the end of 8th, and into 9th, I thought it be a good idea to analyze what looks good/bad for White Scars with this new release.

 

The overall shift to Core units from vehicles seems to work into any assault/infantry heavy army.

 

- Incursors: A very playable unit hits a little harder in CC now thanks to -1 AP knives. A fun unit, not over the top, but good in any marine army to establish immediate board presence. 

 

- Assault Intercessors. Very playable on Indomitus release, now even better with 2 notable codex tweaks: 1 Fight twice strat only applies to Intercessors, and 2. customizable Sarge options.

 

- Intercessors. Still a solid option. No real change except that since Primaris are the only valid targets for Transhuman might shift them in importance to a lot of troop selections.

 

- Scouts. This feels like a similar shift to the changes made to Cataphractii/Tartaros. Losing Ob/Sec is massive.

 

- Aggressors. Probably the first negative. A great unit for many armies (strangely for different reasons). Now this is a harder sell with the loss of all special rules. (A good target for the strat that allows them to have ALL Doctrines active though.)

 

- Bikers- Firstborn: An extra wound, and the buff to Heavy Bolters/Multimelta.

 

- Outriders: Still a good unit but I think everyone expected a change to squad size which never happened. Do Firstborn eclipse this version as a result?

 

- HQ/Elite Support units: Chaplains! Yes please. On a bike? Absolutely. Apothecaries! Absolutely. New tweaks plus the enhancement to infantry/core make these choices arguably even better for White Scars.

 

- ATV. I know this is a polarizing unit in appearance, but I think this is a solid choice for the points considering the speed, and tweaks to weapon mounts.

 

- Dreads/Contemptors/Redemptors: What's not to like for any army? Filling in anti-tank can be challenging for some assault based armies, but this combines the best of both worlds with the built in strat reducing damage by 1.

 

- Eradicators: Good out of Indomitus, now with more flexibility this unit can make a mess of anything that let's these guys get too close.

 

- Terminators: +1 wound is just good. Deep striking has always helped, but it just makes more sense to include them with survivability.

 

- Cataphractii/Tartaros: big losers here. Shockingly so, GW decided to make these playable in name only.

 

- Impulsors: These dropped a notch for sure. Losing several rules, and then seeing these rules largely converted to Strats is not great news here. The points drop does not really make up for this. The dome nerf to a 5++ is easily the biggest takeaway from the nerfs. I've never liked how you can shoot through these units as if they didn't exist (floating). Now Rhino's definitely seem better, but don't handle Primaris. Is it better to walk and increase your boots on the table? 

 

- Gladiators: A strange addition that might make its way into my White Scars just to have something in the back field that isn't just an empty Impulsor. 

 

- Vanguard Vets: Wow. From zero to hero here in my opinion. Strat support (HoW) storm shield tweaks, very fast, and cheap for a survivable, fast unit. This might be an auto include in my Scars going forward.

 

Honourable Mentions:

 

- Skilled Riders. This took a substantial nerf. Bikes were good with this but it is going to see far less play. I lived off of this in every game in its previous effects.

 

- Hammer of Wrath.  Charging with jump pack units just got better. In engagement range, a decent sized squad can cause real damage against a super survivable target by simply equaling or beating toughness. 

 

- Grav Amplifcation: Gone. Start ripping those Grav arms off your devs and start gluing on MM's!

 

What would you guys change or add?

Edited October 5, 2020 by Prot

[Johanhgg]

Good write-up Prot!

 

Reivers, I want to add Reivers. They have been great in every game I played, and I believe their knifes will get a boost which will make them even deadlier. A deep striking unit which favors combat is always good. Even tho they may compete now with Vanguard veterans since they get bumped up to 2 wounds.

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

So as someone who really enjoyed White Scars' playstyle at the end of 8th, and into 9th, I thought it be a good idea to analyze what looks good/bad for White Scars with this new release.

 

The overall shift to Core units from vehicles seems to work into any assault/infantry heavy army.

 

- Incursors: A very playable unit hits a little harder in CC now thanks to -1 AP knives. A fun unit, not over the top, but good in any marine army to establish immediate board presence. 

 

- Assault Intercessors. Very playable on Indomitus release, now even better with 2 notable codex tweaks: 1 Fight twice strat only applies to Intercessors, and 2. customizable Sarge options.

 

- Intercessors. Still a solid option. No real change except that since Primaris are the only valid targets for Transhuman might shift them in importance to a lot of troop selections.

 

- Scouts. This feels like a similar shift to the changes made to Cataphractii/Tartaros. Losing Ob/Sec is massive.

 

- Aggressors. Probably the first negative. A great unit for many armies (strangely for different reasons). Now this is a harder sell with the loss of all special rules. (A good target for the strat that allows them to have ALL Doctrines active though.)

 

- Bikers- Firstborn: An extra wound, and the buff to Heavy Bolters/Multimelta.

 

- Outriders: Still a good unit but I think everyone expected a change to squad size which never happened. Do Firstborn eclipse this version as a result?

 

- HQ/Elite Support units: Chaplains! Yes please. On a bike? Absolutely. Apothecaries! Absolutely. New tweaks plus the enhancement to infantry/core make these choices arguably even better for White Scars.

 

- ATV. I know this is a polarizing unit in appearance, but I think this is a solid choice for the points considering the speed, and tweaks to weapon mounts.

 

- Dreads/Contemptors/Redemptors: What's not to like for any army? Filling in anti-tank can be challenging for some assault based armies, but this combines the best of both worlds with the built in strat reducing damage by 1.

 

- Eradicators: Good out of Indomitus, now with more flexibility this unit can make a mess of anything that let's these guys get too close.

 

- Terminators: +1 wound is just good. Deep striking has always helped, but it just makes more sense to include them with survivability.

 

- Cataphractii/Tartaros: big losers here. Shockingly so, GW decided to make these playable in name only.

 

- Impulsors: These dropped a notch for sure. Losing several rules, and then seeing these rules largely converted to Strats is not great news here. The points drop does not really make up for this. The dome nerf to a 5++ is easily the biggest takeaway from the nerfs. I've never liked how you can shoot through these units as if they didn't exist (floating). Now Rhino's definitely seem better, but don't handle Primaris. Is it better to walk and increase your boots on the table? 

 

- Gladiators: A strange addition that might make its way into my White Scars just to have something in the back field that isn't just an empty Impulsor. 

 

- Vanguard Vets: Wow. From zero to hero here in my opinion. Strat support (HoW) storm shield tweaks, very fast, and cheap for a survivable, fast unit. This might be an auto include in my Scars going forward.

 

Honourable Mentions:

 

- Skilled Riders. This took a substantial nerf. Bikes were good with this but it is going to see far less play. I lived off of this in every game in its previous effects.

 

- Hammer of Wrath.  Charging with jump pack units just got better. In engagement range, a decent sized squad can cause real damage against a super survivable target by simply equaling or beating toughness. 

 

- Grav Amplifcation: Gone. Start ripping those Grav arms off your devs and start gluing on MM's!

 

What would you guys change or add?

 

1. Aggressors are still top tier good.  Too much is being made of the loss of double shooting which was stupid.  They can advance/shoot and charge at a reasonable price.  What is not to like?  They are the anti horde version of eradicators but better in melee.  My raven guard will be using a 5 man unit of these in all lists.  If i felt like painting more of them I would use them in WS also.   

 

2. Im not upset about tartaros getting half squatted either.  They can still take the same loadouts and their main purpose of deepstriking and murdering stuff did not change.  Their cost stayed about the same but they gained a wound.  Cataphracti lost their identity but are still a powerful unit.  Those that took them for the 4++ save did get rekt.  :(

 

3. Bikes vs Fat Bikes is a wash imo.  They are both great units with different purposes.  Outriders are chonkier and more points efficient vs hordes.  Old bikes are just good at everything but slightly less beefy/choppy.  Gotta have both imo. 

 

4.  Impulsors are still the only game in town for primars transportation.  This nerf isn't a surprise and probably warranted.  Time will tell.

 

5. Vanguard vets are a lot more flexible.  You can now get away with 2-3 fists or hammers and just have the rest use chainswords.  The new meltabomb strat gives them a lot more anti tank at no additional points cost.  Of course, all stormshields, all day, every day.

 

6.  Adaptive Strategy gives WS a turn 1 devastating charge.  It also gives a turn 2 devastating charge.  

 

7.  Wind Swift was buffed as per today's FAQ.  It can now be used after a fallback move and you must advance on the second move.  You still cant shoot, charge or use psychic powers but litanies still work if you use Commanding Oratory!  Powerful stuff.

 

8. Ironclad dreads look super scary.  I like the model a lot and now that their rules are spicy I gotta get some.  

 

9. Whirlwinds are interesting.  Their fight last stratagem is going to be clutch.  If close combat is prominent this edition I would expect to see this unit in all marine lists.  If close combat is not important, I expect to see none of them.  

 

10.  Veteran Assault Intercessors are the new khorne berserkers death company.  5 attacks each and you fight twice if needed.  Always give the sarge a hammer or fist.  They can be jacked up with adaptive strategy, litanies for rerolling wounds, and the Khan.  

 

Hot takes! 

 

1. Ok so skilled riders did get nerfed but it is now a reactive stratagem so you dont need to guess who your opponent is going to shoot or not shoot.  Also, the dark angels index that came out today gave them a 4++ invuln strat for bikers.  I expect that Ride Hard, Ride fast will get the same treatment since it is now redundant.  

 

2. I think repulsors really suck now.  Overcosted, less firepower, and no rerolls. 

 

3.  Centurions are dead to me also.  They lost all rules support and gained nothing.  It seems like GW didn't know what to do with them.  I feel especially bad for IF players.  Their army got obliterated by nerfs in the new FAQs. :(

[durdle-durdle]

 

 

2. I think repulsors really suck now.  Overcosted, less firepower, and no rerolls.

did they nerf the amount of shots on the repulsor?  it was already fairly bad, and i agree that the lack of rerolls definitely sucks for them.  The dakka version should have more bullets though, since the onslaught cannons got more rounds.  No fly keyword really sucks though, since you can't hop over buildings anymore to make sneak attacks on units, but I guess it makes some sense.  

 

Something I haven't really seen anyone mention is the smokescreen stratagem.  1 cp, gives a unit with smoke launchers (nearly every vehicle) -1 to be shot for a round, which is pretty great on any transport or dreadnought!  Between this to help transports/dreads and adaptive strategy, I think CC armies got a huge boost.  

 

incursors vs assault intercessors though, which is better?

 

I don't think anything was really done for reivers unfortunately, other than the shock and awe stratagem to deny overwatch.  With only a 6" range on the grenades, I don't think I'll ever use reivers though.  It just doesn't seem worth it.  

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

 

2. I think repulsors really suck now.  Overcosted, less firepower, and no rerolls.

did they nerf the amount of shots on the repulsor?  it was already fairly bad, and i agree that the lack of rerolls definitely sucks for them.  The dakka version should have more bullets though, since the onslaught cannons got more rounds.  No fly keyword really sucks though, since you can't hop over buildings anymore to make sneak attacks on units, but I guess it makes some sense.  

 

Something I haven't really seen anyone mention is the smokescreen stratagem.  1 cp, gives a unit with smoke launchers (nearly every vehicle) -1 to be shot for a round, which is pretty great on any transport or dreadnought!  Between this to help transports/dreads and adaptive strategy, I think CC armies got a huge boost.  

 

incursors vs assault intercessors though, which is better?

 

I don't think anything was really done for reivers unfortunately, other than the shock and awe stratagem to deny overwatch.  With only a 6" range on the grenades, I don't think I'll ever use reivers though.  It just doesn't seem worth it.  

 

Assault Intercessors vs Incursors is not a valid comparison imo.  They do not have the same function.  Incursors are just straight up worse in close combat because they have 1 less attack and no weapon options but they forward deploy.  IMO White Scars should have the option to forward deploy and threaten more objectives on turn 1.  So take 5 incursors minimum.  

[Prot]

Yea I agree you can’t compare assault Intercessors to Inceptors. Just too different. They are complimentary though. 
 

I do still think Aggressors just aren’t worth it. The  points stayed the same, I can find better use for those points. However as I mentioned they would be okay if you’re hitting them with all doctrines. Meanwhile the flamer variant is a much better selection now for a few reasons. 
 

I did so much work with assault Intercessors previous to the codex, I am really looking forward to a hammer in there. I don’t think I’ll take the vet version.... just really want ObSec. 
 

I’m still tempted by the pillbox gladiator. 

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

I was looking to use veteran assault intercessors but I dont think they have access to Honour the Chapter.  I do like the idea of 10 veteran intercessors with ABRs and a thunderhammer.  They can shoot twice and charge with 40+ attacks.  Sounds great.

 

Prot, youre underrating aggressors!  They are as good at killing hordes as eradicators are at killing tanks.  Hordes are currently doing quite well in the limited sample of games we have for 9th.  Flamestorm aggressors in particular are a great deep strike denial unit against chargers.  You get to auspex anything landing near you and then overwatch them.  It gets even worse if your Judiciar is nearby.  

[Riddlesworth]

Plasma inceptors backed up by a bike/jump captain and outriders backed up by the bike chaplain are looking pretty tasty for pressure, paired with aggressor/apothecary and bladeguard/librarian either hitting the mid board or outflanking

 

3 damage on fists in assault doctrine along with assault, shoot, charge on aggressors is still good

Edited October 6, 2020 by Riddlesworth

[Prot]

I was looking to use veteran assault intercessors but I dont think they have access to Honour the Chapter.  I do like the idea of 10 veteran intercessors with ABRs and a thunderhammer.  They can shoot twice and charge with 40+ attacks.  Sounds great.

 

Prot, youre underrating aggressors!  They are as good at killing hordes as eradicators are at killing tanks.  Hordes are currently doing quite well in the limited sample of games we have for 9th.  Flamestorm aggressors in particular are a great deep strike denial unit against chargers.  You get to auspex anything landing near you and then overwatch them.  It gets even worse if your Judiciar is nearby.  

 

- too bad about the vet Assault Intercessors, but to be fair, I don't think I wanted to use them personally. Though I'm sure they'll see some tournament play?

 

- As far as Aggressors, I always try to keep an open mind and I will. However, I found towards the start of 9th I wasn't a big fan of them. Here's my reasons:

 

1. I just came off a hundred thousand years of playing competitive Ultramarines where you were best served by playing with a zillion of them in mid board, with boring aura's, and the UM Tactical Doctrine in play to move + Double Shoot.  So understandably I'm bored of it, and quite frankly I'm glad they turned them down.

 

2. It was one thing to use Aggressors in UM, but in White Scars I made my lists much, much faster. I found even the pre-nerfed Aggressors to be something I had to invest too much in, and frankly the unit played counter productive to my overall strategy.

 

2B. With the above being said, my strategy with pre-nerf Aggressors became; Encirclement them... either alone, or in a Repulsor. Two things happened with that plan: 1 Assault Intercessors came out. 2 The Repulsor is dead to me right now. :)

 

3. We got Bladeguard. I used cheaper bladeguard units, which fit much easier in Transports, and I found I was getting far more bang for my buck by taking 10 Assault Intercessors in Encirclement and hammering someone's castle in T2. The Obsec was great, the resulting assaults were almost always successful using our bag of tricks.

 

So now you add in the negative changes to aggressors, and I prefer this dynamic version I have. Bladeguard became my 'new' Aggressor, and I really enjoy the Assault Intercessor outfanking.

 

To be fair, I will remake a squad of Aggressors with Flamers, but those old problems will crop up of what to do with them, and not let them impede my overall strategy. But to be honest, after the previously mentioned marriage of UM's and Aggressors for so long, I'm kind of happy I don't 'need' them anymore. 

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

 

I was looking to use veteran assault intercessors but I dont think they have access to Honour the Chapter.  I do like the idea of 10 veteran intercessors with ABRs and a thunderhammer.  They can shoot twice and charge with 40+ attacks.  Sounds great.

 

Prot, youre underrating aggressors!  They are as good at killing hordes as eradicators are at killing tanks.  Hordes are currently doing quite well in the limited sample of games we have for 9th.  Flamestorm aggressors in particular are a great deep strike denial unit against chargers.  You get to auspex anything landing near you and then overwatch them.  It gets even worse if your Judiciar is nearby.  

 

- too bad about the vet Assault Intercessors, but to be fair, I don't think I wanted to use them personally. Though I'm sure they'll see some tournament play?

 

- As far as Aggressors, I always try to keep an open mind and I will. However, I found towards the start of 9th I wasn't a big fan of them. Here's my reasons:

 

1. I just came off a hundred thousand years of playing competitive Ultramarines where you were best served by playing with a zillion of them in mid board, with boring aura's, and the UM Tactical Doctrine in play to move + Double Shoot.  So understandably I'm bored of it, and quite frankly I'm glad they turned them down.

 

2. It was one thing to use Aggressors in UM, but in White Scars I made my lists much, much faster. I found even the pre-nerfed Aggressors to be something I had to invest too much in, and frankly the unit played counter productive to my overall strategy.

 

2B. With the above being said, my strategy with pre-nerf Aggressors became; Encirclement them... either alone, or in a Repulsor. Two things happened with that plan: 1 Assault Intercessors came out. 2 The Repulsor is dead to me right now.

 

3. We got Bladeguard. I used cheaper bladeguard units, which fit much easier in Transports, and I found I was getting far more bang for my buck by taking 10 Assault Intercessors in Encirclement and hammering someone's castle in T2. The Obsec was great, the resulting assaults were almost always successful using our bag of tricks.

 

So now you add in the negative changes to aggressors, and I prefer this dynamic version I have. Bladeguard became my 'new' Aggressor, and I really enjoy the Assault Intercessor outfanking.

 

To be fair, I will remake a squad of Aggressors with Flamers, but those old problems will crop up of what to do with them, and not let them impede my overall strategy. But to be honest, after the previously mentioned marriage of UM's and Aggressors for so long, I'm kind of happy I don't 'need' them anymore. 

 

That is understandable.  I currently have no plans to use them with WS but I have 6 of them for my Raven Guard which will see action once I get the codex.  

 

Have you seen one of the recent Tabletop Titans batreps?  Orks vs White Scars running an intercessor horde.   

[Prot]

No I haven't seen it. I can't see Orks doing well in that match up. I do watch some of their stuff, but I haven't seen that batrep or I skipped it because I feel like that WS set up is going to crush most typical Ork lists. (Just my personal experience from playing one of my Ork friends.)

 

So if you aren't planning on running Aggressors with your WS, what is your favoured unit for them? Just assault intercessors?

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

No I haven't seen it. I can't see Orks doing well in that match up. I do watch some of their stuff, but I haven't seen that batrep or I skipped it because I feel like that WS set up is going to crush most typical Ork lists. (Just my personal experience from playing one of my Ork friends.)

 

So if you aren't planning on running Aggressors with your WS, what is your favoured unit for them? Just assault intercessors?

Old bikes, outriders, chaplain on bike, assault intecessors, impulsors, bladeguard.  I like all those units for WS.  

[Prot]

Yea, that's pretty much what my list has been since Indomitus dropped, and I don't see it changing much.

[Vanger]

Commanding Oratory. With that you can deep strike your chaplain, get the +2 charge litany. Deep strike some lightning claw terminators near him. A 5 man unit now puts out 26 S4 Ap -2 D 1 attacks, with full wound re-roll. Add to it Fury of the First and they hit on 2+.

[Prot]

Commanding Oratory. With that you can deep strike your chaplain, get the +2 charge litany. Deep strike some lightning claw terminators near him. A 5 man unit now puts out 26 S4 Ap -2 D 1 attacks, with full wound re-roll. Add to it Fury of the First and they hit on 2+.

 

 

Yea that's true. I personally like the Primaris Biker Chappy best, so I would probably either turbo him up the table, or Encirclement him (flank) and then drop in the claw/hammer/shield guys. 

[Riddlesworth]

When I finally finish painting my indomitus stuff, I'll probably end up with a list built around unit+character (because I loke making secondaries easy for my opponent)

 

Bike chaplain + 6 outriders (yeah its 2 units but the 2 best litanies for them are auras so..)

Khan on bike + 5 plasmaceptors

Chief apothecary + aggressors

Librarian + bladeguard

 

Fitting some incursors and eradicators around that has decent enough variety. Good options for encircle depending on opponent.

Edited October 7, 2020 by Riddlesworth

[Prot]

I think Plasmaceptors are still going to be a thing. Bikes are bikes. I think it's arguable the vanilla firstborn bikers and MM attack bike are definitely worth taking.  

 

Chief Apothecary is almost auto take in my opinion. Bladeguard are a great unit. Really it's hard to make a 'bad' WS list right now unless you dig up units we really never used. *Maybe aside from Grav?

[Riddlesworth]

I've heard players getting good milage out of feigned withdrawal for plasmaceptors and aggressors, although the inceptora are more likely to still be locked in combat after 2 turns

 

Chief apothecary is just nuts. 105 points locked up.for me every time.

Edited October 18, 2020 by Riddlesworth

[CCE1981]

Born Heroes +1 to hit, Fury of the First +1 to hit for Terminators, Thunderhammer -1 to hit = Hammernators striking with ThunderHammers on a 2+.