Codex: Space Wolves Errata and Preview

[WrathOfTheLion]

We've had this conversation here. The Wolfspear are already a thing, have been for years now, and they should be addressed in the 9E supplement.

 

It's the same thing with BA - Do the ultima foundings have Death companies and maybe Sanguinary Guard? And with DA - Do the ultima foundings have Ravenwings and Deathwings?

This problem has existed all around those three chapters the entirety of 8E. They need to address it in some manner. It's been three years and they have rolled out almost the entire new line.

[Bulwyf]

 

 

 

On relics...my guess is we'll be limited to a set of our own and lose access to the generic ones, we'll find out Saturday

That would be unprecedented for a supplemen if I recall correctly.

 

 

It was unprecedented for Wolf Priests to not be able to heal until 9th edition. I put nothing past GW at this point.

 

but they couldn't heal in 5th edition, so not so unprecedented.

 

and they do still heal.

 

i know you're upset, but as much as we always want free stuff and never want to be rebalanced, game design is always about the sum of its parts, not individual pieces in a vacuum. this isn't a negotiation, either - it's a new book for a new edition and it's going to be a different beast 

So at the risk of sounding "negative" I have to point out in the community article that GW went exactly the route I predicted: the reason we now have SW Successor chapters? Why that nutty Do It All Cawl pulled another rabbit out of his hat. Is there anything this guy can't do?

 

 

I don't consider it a "negotiation" to have a unit that historically has always been a mix of Chaplain and Apothecary that has been able to heal to suddenly lose half its function. The "rebalance" for that has always been that WP could not bring a model back from the dead to keep it balanced. They could just heal. Now you can heal, once per turn, for 1 CP and you still can't bring a model back from the dead.

 

So you have an iconic SW only unit that loses half its function on top of the the much better Chaplain aura in 8th edition being replaced with these worthless litanies. Being able to only heal once per turn makes bringing more than one WP if you wanted to do that an exercise in futility because only one of them can do it.

 

When someone takes the army you've faithfully collected since they were a legal army and put several parts of the lore into a blender that's a valid reason for calling it out. The way they treated Wolf Priests, frost axes, successor chapters and Wulfen so far is cause for more than concern. 

 

And to address someone's point above about using frost axes in your army as "blue power axes" that's only fine for those people who don't care about WYSIWYG. I personally do not care about WYSIWYG but that's my personal opinion. There's many people that DO care about that and more crucially you may run into a gamer that won't let you use those frost axe models because those aren't actually power axes those are frost axes.

 

That's just the tabletop competitive aspect. There's also the modelling hobby side of it where you now have gamers with models they've used for years in some cases now wearing gear that shouldn't have. I know that's happened to other armies including SW in the past but that doesn't mean it should be shrugged off.

[Bulwyf]

 

So at the risk of sounding "negative" I have to point out in the community article that GW went exactly the route I predicted: the reason we now have SW Successor chapters? Why that nutty Do It All Cawl pulled another rabbit out of his hat. Is there anything this guy can't do?

 

the wolf spear has been around since guy haley's dark imperium novel. it's hard to argue it hasn't been well foreshadowed - it didn't suddenly come from nowhere and we've been anticipating it for a long time. 

 

i'm not trying to pick on you, but man, i just... i dunno. i know you're mad, but work with me here.

 

 

Please stop telling me I'm "mad". People can have opinions on things without being some angry internet meme throwing toy soldiers because they don't like changes. 

 

Honestly if you don't like my posts because you can't handle negative criticism at all just ignore me. If you wish to engage with me on a respectful way I am open to that.

[Wispy]

 

 

So at the risk of sounding "negative" I have to point out in the community article that GW went exactly the route I predicted: the reason we now have SW Successor chapters? Why that nutty Do It All Cawl pulled another rabbit out of his hat. Is there anything this guy can't do?

 

the wolf spear has been around since guy haley's dark imperium novel. it's hard to argue it hasn't been well foreshadowed - it didn't suddenly come from nowhere and we've been anticipating it for a long time. 

 

i'm not trying to pick on you, but man, i just... i dunno. i know you're mad, but work with me here.

 

 

Please stop telling me I'm "mad". People can have opinions on things without being some angry internet meme throwing toy soldiers because they don't like changes. 

 

Honestly if you don't like my posts because you can't handle negative criticism at all just ignore me. If you wish to engage with me on a respectful way I am open to that.

 

Okay, dude, first off, i don't want to fight. when I say "I know you're mad," it's because i legit think you are feeling angry.

 

i mean no disrespect by saying so  - understanding that text-based communications being limited as they are... when ones criticisms are as intense and relentless as yours... i don't think it's unusual to interpret there might be some emotion behind it.

Edited October 28, 2020 by Wispy

[Bulwyf]

 

 

 

So at the risk of sounding "negative" I have to point out in the community article that GW went exactly the route I predicted: the reason we now have SW Successor chapters? Why that nutty Do It All Cawl pulled another rabbit out of his hat. Is there anything this guy can't do?

 

the wolf spear has been around since guy haley's dark imperium novel. it's hard to argue it hasn't been well foreshadowed - it didn't suddenly come from nowhere and we've been anticipating it for a long time. 

 

i'm not trying to pick on you, but man, i just... i dunno. i know you're mad, but work with me here.

 

 

Please stop telling me I'm "mad". People can have opinions on things without being some angry internet meme throwing toy soldiers because they don't like changes. 

 

Honestly if you don't like my posts because you can't handle negative criticism at all just ignore me. If you wish to engage with me on a respectful way I am open to that.

 

Okay, dude, first off, i don't want to fight. when I say "I know you're mad," it's because i legit think you are feeling angry.

 

i mean no disrespect by saying so  - understanding that text-based communications being limited as they are... when ones criticisms are as intense and relentless as yours... i don't think it's unusual to interpret there might be some emotion behind it.

 

 

I don't want to fight either. :)  I'm a pretty laid back guy despite how I may be coming across. The thing is I'm passionate about this game and especially the few armies I collect. When it comes to changes that I just don't agree with but I feel really hurt the army either in the fluff or on the table I'm going to voice that. If there's changes or something I think is positive I will voice that as well. If you look at the space wolf army lists forum in 8th edition I probably posted the most armies up there. 

 

And just to add, I'm not saying you are doing this, but usually in today's internet parlance when someone says are you mad it reads as U MAD BRO? to the other person. You also have to remember I did see your post directed at me that was deleted. I'm not the one that came across to the other person out of nowhere in a disrespectful way.

 

If you don't want to come across that way, cool, we can let it go and keep on talking about SW both good and bad.

[Wispy]

it's reasonable for you to be defensive given my deleted post - i was being a :cuss, admittedly, and i apologize. i have been trying to be diplomatic since then and explain myself. :) 

[bluescope]

 

When someone takes the army you've faithfully collected since they were a legal army and put several parts of the lore into a blender that's a valid reason for calling it out. The way they treated Wolf Priests, frost axes, successor chapters and Wulfen so far is cause for more than concern. 

 

Yes. GW has done it to SW for three times, 7th, 8th and now.

[One Two Wolf]

Don't want to cause anything here, but are the hounds a wulfen replacement.

[Wispy]

Don't want to cause anything here, but are the hounds a wulfen replacement.

 

no because wulfen are wulfen.

[Knightsword]

Probably a silly question, but if you pull off the saga for wolfkin and everyone within 6" counts as having charged, does that then also mean the superdoctrine is always active for those units within 6" for an always +1 to hit? Or does the section "for the purposes of the shock assault ability" prevent this from being a thing?

[PeteySödes]

Probably a silly question, but if you pull off the saga for wolfkin and everyone within 6" counts as having charged, does that then also mean the superdoctrine is always active for those units within 6" for an always +1 to hit? Or does the section "for the purposes of the shock assault ability" prevent this from being a thing?

No it just means we still would get +1A in subsequent turns which is nice, especially after T3.

[FabulousRex]

So weird question, if you can stack Frost Weapons onto a weapon like a Relic, does that stack with the Indominus HQs' master crafted power swords? That would be STR+2, AP-3, 3Dmg...

[Karhedron]

And to address someone's point above about using frost axes in your army as "blue power axes" that's only fine for those people who don't care about WYSIWYG. I personally do not care about WYSIWYG but that's my personal opinion. There's many people that DO care about that and more crucially you may run into a gamer that won't let you use those frost axe models because those aren't actually power axes those are frost axes.

WHSIWYG is no longer part of the rules and hasn't been for a couple of editions so that is not much of an argument.

 

Secondly, you are absolutely entitled to use them as blue power weapons because there is now literally no such thing as a frost weapon in the wargear list. They can't not be power axes. Icy blue is now just an aesthetic choice rather than a separate weapon.

[Dark Shepherd]

Yeah to my knowledge no chapter lost access to any relics (templars technically couldn't take a librarian only item).

 

I added up the relics + special issue wargear in the scar supplement they had 15 total, and the ravenguard supplement who have 14. Wolves have 18 between Saga of the Beast and our old codex. It wouldn't shock me if we dropped to 14-15 but I really doubt we would we won't have access to the marine book relics.

I wont complain if we have more relics to choose from! A fair few of the generic marine ones seem to replicate our warlord traits...speaking of did the previous first founding supplements still allow access to the generic marine traits?

 

And/or could it be the case that the Successor Wolves chapters get the generic traits or relics but Parent Chapter doesnt?

[Vassakov]

I'm going to wade into this, possibly against my better judgement.

 

I don't think you can look at this in isolation, there's a lot going on including balancing a lot of weapons that go across factions. One of the big changes of 9th is that Power Weapons in general have received a bit of a buff - so Power Swords are now S+1 ... which is of course exactly what our old Frost Swords were, and Power Axes have gone to +2 S. Again, that's what Frost Axes were.

 

I don't fully blame GW if they decided that Wolves having S+2 Swords en mass, or S+3 Axes, might have been a bit of a balance issue. You are of course welcome to disagree, but giving say an entire squad of (already buffed) Thunderwolves S6 or 7 attacks could have been an issue. It would also create this weird situation where Power Fists and Hammers would be potentially almost pointless if Pack Leaders could take a S+3 S Axe or a S+2 Sword.

 

There's also the weird issue of exactly what Frost Weapons are supposed to be. Are they relatively common items of wargear that most Great Companies have a decent stock of and most Wolf Guard wield, or are they rare and ancient artefacts, forged by only the mightiest Iron Priests? One is fine for a normal wargear item, the other really fits the description of a Relic. Despite playing the game - and Wolves - for nearly 20 years, I honestly couldn't tell you which they are supposed to be.

 

All that having been said, I do agree that Wolf Priests have been shafted. I still think that Litanies are - in general - more powerful that the Re-roll hits in Combat Bubble, though require more tactical use. The change to Healing Balms is a major nerf though and I really don't know why they didn't get their own Datasheet rather than this really awkward compromise.

[Squark]

I'm going to wade into this, possibly against my better judgement.

 

I don't think you can look at this in isolation, there's a lot going on including balancing a lot of weapons that go across factions. One of the big changes of 9th is that Power Weapons in general have received a bit of a buff - so Power Swords are now S+1 ... which is of course exactly what our old Frost Swords were, and Power Axes have gone to +2 S. Again, that's what Frost Axes were.

 

I don't fully blame GW if they decided that Wolves having S+2 Swords en mass, or S+3 Axes, might have been a bit of a balance issue. You are of course welcome to disagree, but giving say an entire squad of (already buffed) Thunderwolves S6 or 7 attacks could have been an issue. It would also create this weird situation where Power Fists and Hammers would be potentially almost pointless if Pack Leaders could take a S+3 S Axe or a S+2 Sword.

 

There's also the weird issue of exactly what Frost Weapons are supposed to be. Are they relatively common items of wargear that most Great Companies have a decent stock of and most Wolf Guard wield, or are they rare and ancient artefacts, forged by only the mightiest Iron Priests? One is fine for a normal wargear item, the other really fits the description of a Relic. Despite playing the game - and Wolves - for nearly 20 years, I honestly couldn't tell you which they are supposed to be.

 

All that having been said, I do agree that Wolf Priests have been shafted. I still think that Litanies are - in general - more powerful that the Re-roll hits in Combat Bubble, though require more tactical use. The change to Healing Balms is a major nerf though and I really don't know why they didn't get their own Datasheet rather than this really awkward compromise.

I think it's pretty simple, actually. Smash Chaplains/Wolf Priests are a thing. Smash Apothecaries are decidedly not. Giving a Wolf Priest on an outrider bike or one with a Jump Pack and power fist the ability to heal himself for free every turn seems kind of absurd.

[Ragnar69]

Also ressurecting TWC would be insanely powerful. Place them at the front and suddenly you need 6" less to charge.

I did see this coming and I understand why they did it, but it is still a bit disappointing. They could at least have made it full 3 wounds instead of d3

[Dark Shepherd]

Also ressurecting TWC would be insanely powerful. Place them at the front and suddenly you need 6" less to charge.

I did see this coming and I understand why they did it, but it is still a bit disappointing. They could at least have made it full 3 wounds instead of d3

Tinfoil hat time: we wont get resurrect and lost Healing Balms because of TWC going up to 4 wounds

[Bulwyf]

it's reasonable for you to be defensive given my deleted post - i was being a , admittedly, and i apologize. i have been trying to be diplomatic since then and explain myself.

 

Thank you and I appreciate it. I swear I'm not being negative just to be negative. I like in 9th I can finally play my TWC again and not feel like I totally wasted those points in a list even for friendly games.

[Rune Priest Jbickb]

My thoughts on our teased rules

 

Warlord trait

The trait itself is decent, but the thing that stuck out to me was that it is much easier to get the saga off then the previous version of this trait, it went from 5 models to 1 for the trigger. If this signals a trend then I think on the whole this is good news for the saga system as one would likely attain it more often.

 

Relics

Black death

Not off the charts but not bad. Will likely be passed on for something better when we get the book.

 

Frost weapons

This is an interesting move, and I think its the result of 2 things, balance and fluff. Balance wise it makes sense not to have these whole sale available with the update to power weapons as others have mentioned.

 

Fluff wise it makes sense because frost weapons are special, they are relics of the great companies reserved for those whose sagas have earned them. So spend a relic for it makes sense to me.

 

Strats

2x warlord trait.

This has potential to be really good. Currently unknown what combos will be as we don't know all warlord traits, but as only one of your traits has to be a spacewolf trait it allows some interesting blends with codex warlord traits and chapter command warlord traits. I think this will be a strat to watch once the book is out.

 

Wolf Priest healing strat

This is a bit of a letdown. Part of me understands why they did it, but as they don't have access to the combat revival strat by not being apothecaries then this is notably worse. If we could use combat revival and this strat I think I would be much happier, but unless the codex adds apothecary to wolf preists keyword, or somehow addresses this then this is kind of an annoying exclusion. And it would be really easy to excluded TCav as you just leave Cavalry out of combat revival.

 

Units

Hounds are discussed elsewhere, but I do gotta figure out how to make mine darker as my wolves already tend to the darker end of the spectrum of wolves lol.

 

Just my thoughts after a couple reads. Mostly I'm excited to get my hands on the book though.

[VIth]

I have no idea why anyone is dumping on the new Wolfkin Saga: it's significantly better for the character (67% chance to get 2-3 attacks vs 1).  As far as the aura, while it's definitely worse, I'd be very curious to hear how often everyone else unlocked the aura (killing five models in melee) then had it actually meaningfully interact with other units during their games.  I can't speak for others, but my Wolfkin/Wulfen Stone Wolf Lords are usually a heat-seeking missile aimed at the other guy's scary units like Knights, etc--i.e. he's not plowing into the chaff and wasting those beautiful Powerfist or Thunderhammer attacks on Guarsmen or Cultists.  As such, I seldom unlocked the aura, and once unlocked it never played a significant role.  It's much more important to get extra attacks on the Wolf Lord himself, IMO, than provide a buff aura on Turn 2 or 3.  Not to mention it's almost a given you'll unlock it immediately.

Frost Weapons: 100% agree with Vassakov.  I never liked the way these best-of-power weapons were made available to every random Bloodclaw Pack Leader.  I'm fine with making them a relic, and I think that actually makes for some very interesting options.  Specifically, the Goonhammer melee weapon analysis had Lightening Claws as a big winner.  I think making a pair of Frost Claws (Wolf Claws, right?) out of lightening claws will turn out to be very good.

I do agree with the complaints about the Wolf Priest healing.  I don't understand who at Games Workshop has it in their mind that Wolf Priests are worst at performing Apothecary functions than Apothecaries, but it's really annoying.  If there is a concern that being able to do oratory and heal is too powerful, it's really really easy to mitigate that with points increases or minor rule tweaks a la they can't do both actions in the same turn, or you can only take one Wolf Priest per detachment or army, etc.  Waiting to see the full Wolf Priest rules before making final judgment: holding out hope that the we can make a chief Wolf Priest for our successor chapters that is much better than the little we've seen suggests.

Finally: I'm excited.  I'm happy with the Chapter Tactic, which is solid, and there's enough good stuff leaked so far I think the good will outweigh the bad.

[Dark Shepherd]

I was the exact same with TW smash lord, he was there to fight daemons, carnifexes, makari, etc not a daisycutter to take out cultists and guardsmen. I think I legit only ever once got extra attacks around him

 

In terms of d3 for shock assaalt

33% it will be worse than previous iteration of the saga

33% the same

33% better

 

My only gripe with frost weapons is that it wasnt extended to all melee weapons :)

[VIth]

Oh, wow didn’t catch the implications of it replacing Shock Assault. Yikes. That is worse if that’s how it stays. I partially retract my commentary on that.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

 

Yeah to my knowledge no chapter lost access to any relics (templars technically couldn't take a librarian only item).

 

I added up the relics + special issue wargear in the scar supplement they had 15 total, and the ravenguard supplement who have 14. Wolves have 18 between Saga of the Beast and our old codex. It wouldn't shock me if we dropped to 14-15 but I really doubt we would we won't have access to the marine book relics.

I wont complain if we have more relics to choose from! A fair few of the generic marine ones seem to replicate our warlord traits...speaking of did the previous first founding supplements still allow access to the generic marine traits?

 

And/or could it be the case that the Successor Wolves chapters get the generic traits or relics but Parent Chapter doesnt?

Yeah you could take all the relics and warlord traits from the base book.

[Dark Shepherd]

 

 

Yeah to my knowledge no chapter lost access to any relics (templars technically couldn't take a librarian only item).

 

I added up the relics + special issue wargear in the scar supplement they had 15 total, and the ravenguard supplement who have 14. Wolves have 18 between Saga of the Beast and our old codex. It wouldn't shock me if we dropped to 14-15 but I really doubt we would we won't have access to the marine book relics.

I wont complain if we have more relics to choose from! A fair few of the generic marine ones seem to replicate our warlord traits...speaking of did the previous first founding supplements still allow access to the generic marine traits?

 

And/or could it be the case that the Successor Wolves chapters get the generic traits or relics but Parent Chapter doesnt?

Yeah you could take all the relics and warlord traits from the base book.

Interesting...thanks

 

I still suspect we will lose the warlord traits (except for successors), because of the saga systen they love

 

Relics opens up more posibilites though