Index astartes: Deathwatch

[Prot]

I remember that battlebox. I bought it and pretty much just used the bikers. I have most of it on sprue as at the time of release we just seemed to use the Fragcannons. 

 

I can easily dig into that stuff, but I'm truly debating this because I have 3 marine armies now. While I do play in a very competitive environment, I do not play any one army because of how well it kicks butt in tournaments. But I admit that my quickest route to frustration is playing a codex that feels... wrong, missing something, or missing the 'theme'. 

 

Add in the cost of models has just seemingly skyrocketed over the past year(?) and I have 2 other marine armies, and I'm going to have to wait to see the supplement to make further judgement. 

 

I'd really hate to sell my second (mostly) painted Deathwatch army. It's a lot of work. But I'll be damned if I'm going to be thinking, 'I wish they would have done this, or I wish this worked better, or I wish they didn't remove ability X.'

 

I have a giant UM army to tide me over until November. Until then I'll wait to see, but in the past I would be all over this release for better or worse.

[Inquisitor Trinity]

Just noticed the deathwatch and space wolves (primaris) start collecting sets are no longer available on the shop. What are we to make of this?

[Boyadventurer]

Just noticed the deathwatch and space wolves (primaris) start collecting sets are no longer available on the shop. What are we to make of this?

Probably just reboxing. I do think DW/SW would be the first up for the supplements anyway.

 

And sorry, my post earlier I didn't mean the battleforce boxes, but the box sets like Forgebane, Blood of the Phoenix, etc. There was talk a few months back about a DW vs Necron one.

[Prot]

 

Just noticed the deathwatch and space wolves (primaris) start collecting sets are no longer available on the shop. What are we to make of this?

Probably just reboxing. I do think DW/SW would be the first up for the supplements anyway.

 

And sorry, my post earlier I didn't mean the battleforce boxes, but the box sets like Forgebane, Blood of the Phoenix, etc. There was talk a few months back about a DW vs Necron one.

 

 

 

Yea I think I brought that up. It came from the same source that told me (like 6 months ago) that the DW supplement would be one of the first right after the codex.

 

So I want to get back to the problem with Strategems from the main Space Marine codex. Which ones don't work as a result of Kill Team issues (losing Keywords?)

[Qui-Gon]

I am going to wait until the Codex Supplement drops before I look again at 9E Deathwatch. No relics, no stratagems, bungled Index rules...no thank you I'mma wait.

[Debauchery101]

My problem with the Infernus is that it is one weapon, and thus can’t be split fired. In my mind the two weapons it is made of will want to fire at different targets.

 

it is still very good, just not sure if it is worth giving up the other options for. Especially when we can focus on durability.

the profile says to select one or both of the profiles and its -1 to hit if both are selected

[Boyadventurer]

The only ones that straight up do not work is Honour the Chapter, Rapid Fire, and Terror Troops, since Kill teams can't gain keywords for either of Intercessors or Reivers.

 

Fury of the First, Hit and Run Warfare, Hammer of Wrath and Skilled Riders work while the unit ONLY contains the respective models (so either Combat Squad or due to casualties)

 

Melta bomb, Smokescreen, and Shock and Awe work so long as the unit still contains one of the respective models.

 

[Prot]

 

My problem with the Infernus is that it is one weapon, and thus can’t be split fired. In my mind the two weapons it is made of will want to fire at different targets.

 

it is still very good, just not sure if it is worth giving up the other options for. Especially when we can focus on durability.

the profile says to select one or both of the profiles and its -1 to hit if both are selected

 

 

Right. I think that's not the problem. I think (correct me if I'm wrong) that Ieth is saying that because it is one weapon, he cannot shoot a soft unit with the flamer in front of his unit, and then shoot the heavy bolter part at a different unit 36" away. 

 

For me, I'll always fire both whenever possible anyway. The S5 is close enough to warrant it. And moving with the IHB confers the -1 penalty anyway, so I see moving and shooting both frequently. (Especially since Frag took a hit.) 

 

That's just me. My test game tomorrow will deal with one squad having 2 IHB's in it, and it's a total mixed bag. (I love the look of the Heavy Hammer, and want to add it to a Black Shield now that it's legal.)

 

The only ones that straight up do not work is Honour the Chapter, Rapid Fire, and Terror Troops, since Kill teams can't gain keywords for either of Intercessors or Reivers.

 

Fury of the First, Hit and Run Warfare, Hammer of Wrath and Skilled Riders work while the unit ONLY contains the respective models (so either Combat Squad or due to casualties)

 

Melta bomb, Smokescreen, and Shock and Awe work so long as the unit still contains one of the respective models.

 

 

 

Thanks. I never remember the names of the Strats,

 

As a foot note; I am starting to believe there will not be a straight up SIA ability for Primaris. But....

 

Do you guys who have been around awhile remember the old days? Remember the old Kill Team detachment rules? I'm wondering if that's what's missing. (Not detachments) The underlying special rules perhaps can define abilities without the risk of potent SIA making it over the top for Primaris.

 

There may be secondary ways of leveraging SIA 'type' abilities for Primaris as well. But I don't believe we'll see it flat out on Primaris in the Supplement.

Edited October 8, 2020 by Prot

[Lemondish]

I think you're probably right, Prot. That would be unfortunate, but not the end of the world. My hope is that there are some unique KT rules that encourage more mixing rather than just building units to combat squad.

[Inquisitor Trinity]

Just got my codex today. Based on the lore section we got it doesn't look like they're going to be messing with the watch fortress/company structure so that's good. I'd hate it if they just went "yeah deathwatch are organised like a regular chapter". Still want to know how lieutenants and bladeguard fit into that structure though. Lieutenants normally take a half company in regular marines but that's only like 20ish guys in a deathwatch company so it seems a little unnecessary. Then the bladeguard (and supressors) don't mesh with the regular kill teams so are they part of the watch fortress command structure or what? I really hope they address these in the supplement.

 

Also did anyone else notice the upgrade costs for chapter command in the middle of the book is different points to the chapter command upgrade in the points section at the back? Like which are we supposed to use?   

[Lemondish]

Just got my codex today. Based on the lore section we got it doesn't look like they're going to be messing with the watch fortress/company structure so that's good. I'd hate it if they just went "yeah deathwatch are organised like a regular chapter". Still want to know how lieutenants and bladeguard fit into that structure though. Lieutenants normally take a half company in regular marines but that's only like 20ish guys in a deathwatch company so it seems a little unnecessary. Then the bladeguard (and supressors) don't mesh with the regular kill teams so are they part of the watch fortress command structure or what? I really hope they address these in the supplement.

 

Also did anyone else notice the upgrade costs for chapter command in the middle of the book is different points to the chapter command upgrade in the points section at the back? Like which are we supposed to use?

I would bet on the one with the rest of the points as being the actual option.

 

For me it doesn't really matter. The only one I really wanted for upgrades is the Apothecary, but I only have the Primaris one and his keywords are wonky and can't be upgraded in the English version of the codex.

[Debauchery101]

I played a few games this weekend so far and the standout unit i was using is definitely proteus killteams...1 terminator with fist and cyclone, sgt with shield and hammer. Rest with shields and DEATHWATCH combi-flamers. Its a bit pricey but they flamers now in range upon deep striking is so much better than before when I ran basically the same team but with storm bolters instead

[Master Sheol]

I played a few games this weekend so far and the standout unit i was using is definitely proteus killteams...1 terminator with fist and cyclone, sgt with shield and hammer. Rest with shields and DEATHWATCH combi-flamers. Its a bit pricey but they flamers now in range upon deep striking is so much better than before when I ran basically the same team but with storm bolters instead

That unit is overkill maybe too much if you dont Combat Squad it

[Debauchery101]

On 10/11/2020 at 11:04 PM, Master Sheol said:

 

On 10/11/2020 at 12:20 PM, Debauchery101 said:

I played a few games this weekend so far and the standout unit i was using is definitely proteus killteams...1 terminator with fist and cyclone, sgt with shield and hammer. Rest with shields and DEATHWATCH combi-flamers. Its a bit pricey but they flamers now in range upon deep striking is so much better than before when I ran basically the same team but with storm bolters instead

That unit is overkill maybe too much if you dont Combat Squad it

lol nah man. No such thing as overkill. This is that try it and see what happens squad. I used them to crowbar into areas and soak up fire or people gladly move their stuff away from them. They definitely aint charging them.

[Master Sheol]

On 10/12/2020 at 9:54 AM, Debauchery101 said:

 

On 10/11/2020 at 11:04 PM, Master Sheol said:

 

On 10/11/2020 at 12:20 PM, Debauchery101 said:

I played a few games this weekend so far and the standout unit i was using is definitely proteus killteams...1 terminator with fist and cyclone, sgt with shield and hammer. Rest with shields and DEATHWATCH combi-flamers. Its a bit pricey but they flamers now in range upon deep striking is so much better than before when I ran basically the same team but with storm bolters instead

That unit is overkill maybe too much if you dont Combat Squad it

lol nah man. No such thing as overkill. This is that try it and see what happens squad. I used them to crowbar into areas and soak up fire or people gladly move their stuff away from them. They definitely aint charging them.

I would totally charge a unit with just two TH

With a unit if DWK that can obliterate them with ease

[Qui-Gon]

On 10/13/2020 at 2:00 AM, Master Sheol said:

 

On 10/12/2020 at 9:54 AM, Debauchery101 said:

 

On 10/11/2020 at 11:04 PM, Master Sheol said:

 

On 10/11/2020 at 12:20 PM, Debauchery101 said:

I played a few games this weekend so far and the standout unit i was using is definitely proteus killteams...1 terminator with fist and cyclone, sgt with shield and hammer. Rest with shields and DEATHWATCH combi-flamers. Its a bit pricey but they flamers now in range upon deep striking is so much better than before when I ran basically the same team but with storm bolters instead

That unit is overkill maybe too much if you dont Combat Squad it

lol nah man. No such thing as overkill. This is that try it and see what happens squad. I used them to crowbar into areas and soak up fire or people gladly move their stuff away from them. They definitely aint charging them.

I would totally charge a unit with just two TH

With a unit if DWK that can obliterate them with ease

 

 

Comparing a unit of Deathwing Knights to most units is like comparing a hypervelocity railgun to a peeshooter.

 

Most units don't want to charge something with 6-8 combi flamers backed by two thunder hammers. Most units are also not Deathwing Knights designed to fight that.

 

Nevermind that Deathwing Knights for whatever reason are in my opinion one of the more broken units in the game with built in Transhuman for no points increase.

[Lemondish]

I guess bogging down a DWK unit with a speed bump does have some value...

[Inquisitor Trinity]

Warhammer community have said we are getting the supplement in november 

[Lemondish]

Warhammer community have said we are getting the supplement in november

I wonder which kit will release alongside it...there are still so many left to arrive.

[TheUnlikelyGamer84]

I don’t know if this was already mentioned but Storm bolters don’t show up in the supplement as being able to use SIA. I’m hoping this gets fixed in the supplement next month because otherwise golly gee! This is speculation but perhaps GW doesn’t want 40 sb shots fired at -1 Ap 2 dmg with vengeance in tactical doctrine. Could be death by a thousand cuts to a lot of units in the game not intended to die to S4 weapons. Especially if we still get +1 to wound strats.

[Syward]

 

Warhammer community have said we are getting the supplement in november

I wonder which kit will release alongside it...there are still so many left to arrive.

What else still needs a release? I thought the last two SM kits are going on Pre-Order tomorrow (bunker & techmarine).

[Lemondish]

 

 

 

Warhammer community have said we are getting the supplement in november

I wonder which kit will release alongside it...there are still so many left to arrive.

What else still needs a release? I thought the last two SM kits are going on Pre-Order tomorrow (bunker & techmarine).

Full list of remaining unreleased yet previously announced units:

 

Captain With Master Crafted Heavy Bolt Rifle

Assault Intercessor Squad (MPK)

Heavy Intercessor Squad

Storm Speeder

Gladiator

Bladeguard Veteran Squad (MPK)

Eradicator Squad

Edited October 16, 2020 by Lemondish

[Syward]

 

 

 

Warhammer community have said we are getting the supplement in november

I wonder which kit will release alongside it...there are still so many left to arrive.

What else still needs a release? I thought the last two SM kits are going on Pre-Order tomorrow (bunker & techmarine).

Full list of remaining unreleased yet previously announced units:

 

Captain With Master Crafted Heavy Bolt Rifle

Assault Intercessor Squad (MPK)

Heavy Intercessor Squad

Storm Speeder

Gladiator

Bladeguard Veteran Squad (MPK)

Eradicator Squad

Oh yeah! Thanks! I forgot about these! LOL Now I'm hoping for the Captain & the Heavy Intercessors!

[Reskin]

Seems to me, the reduction in units that use SIA is to stop the power creep of weapons. It's like what they did with Grey Knights, taking away psybolt ammunition for a few editions and then adding it as a stratagem.

You can also see some hints of this by some of the rules and stat adjustments they are making. The C'tan rule, where they cant recieve more then 3 wounds per phase. The dreadnought rule in Codex Space Marines reducing damage taken by 1 on dreadnoughts. This is just to name a few, I'm sure we will see more like this. With weapon damage power increasing to accommodate 2W marines.

 

Taking away aura rerolls moving forward is another example, they want units to hang around a bit longer I guess, and to nerf the power of the Alpha strike. 

[Irbis]

Seems to me, the reduction in units that use SIA is to stop the power creep of weapons.

 

If so, it's really dumb and nonsensical (from fluff standpoint) solution. Just limit the SIA so it can be used only with natural number of shots gun has, no rapid fire. There, done. Limits firepower without making more expensive guns (and whole primaris half of the army) useless. It makes far more sense if you think about it too, you'd want to use SIA for precise shots with rifle, not for spraying it from your submachine gun style bolter (which is still somehow legal unlike the former).

 

I will laugh if new not-SC box will only have units that can't use the signature ability of DW, and, if that is the case, I hope GW sells none of them (frankly, they should see boycott if simply for relentless price rise that is happening 2-3 times per year now, but alas, too many whales eats up everything GW throws on shelves and asks for seconds). Really, what is the point of playing DW primaris if Supplement doesn't fix the inane Index SIA nerf? Just play your DW as Raven Guard or UM successor or something, you will get far more options, traits, relics, etc, and with SIA gone and kill teams gutted you have little reason to keep using DW rules. Or hell, use either Fists, at least then your bolt weapons will stand out.

 

Oh well, we will see soon, but the Index makes for really disheartening and low effort work. No SIA, few unique weapons DW had (meltafists, xenophases) disappearing from units left and right, relic blades still not fixed, kill teams gutted and their special rules gone, rules writing deliberately opaque and badly worded (I did double take seeing mandatory power swords, yes, you can take them off but why in Emprah's name you'd write it like that to begin with?!) - but hey, whoever wrote this probably spent whole week thinking up special fuels for flamer no one will ever take so it's all good