FAQ is out

[emperorpants]

-So, unless i missed it, It looks like Guilliman's master of battle aura that allows re rolls of 1, adds 1 to charges, etc. is unchanged. Meaning it affects non core as well. Again, i might have just missed it, but it doesn't seem to have been nerfed. This means that Guilliman can make none dreadnought vehicles re roll hit rolls of 1, and as far as i can see, he is the only thing that can beyond a command re roll. A tech marine + Guilliman + Gladiator valiant comes to mind for having that thing hit on 2s and re roll ones....forge world dreads as well....

 

-13th primarch took the expected nerf, with minor tweaks. It allows Ultramarines core and characters to re roll hit rolls. The wound section of it allows core units to re roll 1s to wound. So Guilliman can re roll his hit rolls but not wounds rolls.

 

-i see no points changes for any characters.

 

- Calgar's aura works the same as the chapter master upgrade. Huge nerf.

 

-Big buff to Victrix and honor guard. As long as our characters are within 3 inches of them, they CANNOT be target. PERIOD.

 

-most strats seem unchanged

 

-relic changes as well, but I'm not seeing anything huge, unless i missed something.

Edited October 5, 2020 by emperorpants

[Ishagu]

Calgar also gets the Lieutenant aura now, so he is both in one. This is interesting, and he ends up being cheaper than taking both.

 

What I don't understand is why they left the Gauntlets unchanged with the unreliable D3 damage.

 

Guilliman's rules are now actually more unique, funny enough, and he allows Ultras to re-roll morale which is no longer something Astartes can do.

It is also correct that his Master of Battle aura does indeed allow non Core units to re-roll 1s.

 

If they want to leave these rules that's fine, but he needs a point reduction - especially as Calgar now has the Lieutenant aura on top for 170 points less!

[Ishagu]

Ignore me, I read it wrong.

 

Calgar doesn't get the Lieutenant ability. Darn. He is simply too expensive now to consider.

 

These models have play as they are, rules wise, but they are simply costed far too high to be competitive, imo.

 

Guilliman especially now has a set of unique abilities that are actually quite nice, considering other characters can no longer perform them following the codex update. It's just that price tag...

 

Edit:

 

Is anyone else disappointed that the Victrix Honour Guard don't have Master Crafted Power Swords in the update? It seems to be an obvious wargear selection for them.

 

On the positive side their unique Shields remain as a 3++ save.

Edited October 5, 2020 by Ishagu

[emperorpants]

Yeah, Calgar needs a points drop or he simply isn't worth it.

 

Guilliman though...i actually kinda like this. He can at least still re roll his own hits, too bad about the wounds roll though. As you said Ishagu, he can give morale re rolls, and him allowing non core re rolls of 1 is huge. Suddenly vehicles and forgeworld (assuming forgeworld doesn't get core) are back on the menu in a Guilliman list. With tech marines giving vehicles plus 1 to hit and Tiggy basically auto casting the 5 up invuln spell, our vehicles actually get interesting. Also, if paired with a chaplain, our deep striking units can get a mighty plus 3 on the charge.

 

Is Guilliman worth 380 points now? No, he still needs a drop in points cost, but it doesn't need to be huge imo. If he doesnt get one he can still be usable though, and I can see him finding his way into lists. At least that's my opinion.

Edited October 5, 2020 by emperorpants

[Ishagu]

At least Guilliman's rules are actually more unique now, and that's a big bonus to the theme of the army.

 

Calgar has upset me a bit. His damage reduction rule is nice, but the price is just sooo high.

You can make a generic Gravis Chapter Master for 155 points, with the same Warlord Trait, and a power fist that actually does 2 flat damage.

 

If they are keen to keep Calgar at such a high cost he needs a rule boost of some kind. Make the Gauntlets flat 3 Damage, perhaps? At that point he can be a fearsome figher to match that point cost of his.

Edited October 5, 2020 by Ishagu

[emperorpants]

At least Guilliman's rules are actually more unique now, and that's a big bonus to the theme of the army.

Calgar has upset me a bit. His damage reduction rule is nice, but the price is just sooo high.

You can make a generic Gravis Chapter Master for 155 points, with the same Warlord Trait, and a power fist that actually does 2 flat damage.

If they are keen to keep Calgar at such a high cost he needs a rule boost of some kind. Make the Gauntlets flat 3 Damage, perhaps? At that point he can be a fearsome figher to match that point cost of his.

Yeah, Calgar really got hit hard. He needs something to buff him up to be worth his points. Flat 3 damage as you say would be good, I'd be happy with that.

[Ishagu]

Yeah, I don't mind having a really expensive hero but he needs to play the part lol

 

Big hit for us now is Tigurius. With Psychic Fortress and the Null Zone boosts, and the cost of an upgraded generic psyker being 120 points, Tiggy is an obvious choice, imo.

 

It's a shame his shrouding ability can't affect non Core units anymore...

 

 

Edit:

 

Here is an example of an internal imbalance between factions in the codex:

 

Azrael is a Chapter Master like Calgar. Has a great cc weapon, grants 2 extra CP.

 

He has a 6" aura granting all infantry and biker units a 4++ invul. And he costs 170 points.

 

Compared to this Calgar is insignificant.

Edited October 5, 2020 by Ishagu

[Captain Idaho]

• Chapter Champion is good.

 

• Sicarius gets a better melee weapon. Yayness.

 

• Honour Guard and Victrix Guard are both quality at protecting characters. Weapons are hot too.

[frightnight]

I guess you guys didn't notice that the Seal of Oath is now the best relic in the game: full hit and wound rerolls vs enemy units while within 6" of the bearer.

 

They obviously screwed this up, so don't count on it. The first sentence of the relic is to choose an enemy unit before the battle. But they changed the 2nd sentence to ‘Until the end of the battle, the bearer has the following ability: ‘Seal of Oath (Aura): While a friendly Ultramarines Core or Ultramarines Character unit is within 6" of the bearer, each time a model in that unit makes an attack against an enemy unit, you can re-roll that attack’s hit roll and you can re-roll that attack’s wound roll.’’

So the first sentence does nothing, you just choose a unit for funsies because the 2nd sentence says "an enemy unit". 

El oh bloody el.

[emperorpants]

Yeah, I actually quite like Guilliman's abilities for the most part. If he got a price drop he would be about right I think. What point level would you say is reasonable everyone, assuming you think he needs one? 320-360 would be my range give or take.

 

Another interesting thing about Victrix and honor guard, it seems that when they are around even snipers can't shoot our characters, ax snipers ignore look out sir, and our boys just straight deny anything the ability to shoot them at all if in range.

[Ishagu]

Yeah we've seen it, but it's obviously an error so there's no point in getting excited about it. We can all see the intent from the 1st sentence.

[emperorpants]

I guess you guys didn't notice that the Seal of Oath is now the best relic in the game: full hit and wound rerolls vs enemy units while within 6" of the bearer.

 

They obviously screwed this up, so don't count on it. The first sentence of the relic is to choose an enemy unit before the battle. But they changed the 2nd sentence to ‘Until the end of the battle, the bearer has the following ability: ‘Seal of Oath (Aura): While a friendly Ultramarines Core or Ultramarines Character unit is within 6" of the bearer, each time a model in that unit makes an attack against an enemy unit, you can re-roll that attack’s hit roll and you can re-roll that attack’s wound roll.’’

So the first sentence does nothing, you just choose a unit for funsies because the 2nd sentence says "an enemy unit".

 

El oh bloody el.

No way that lasts.

 

Edit: What Ishagu said sums it up.

Edited October 5, 2020 by emperorpants

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

I guess you guys didn't notice that the Seal of Oath is now the best relic in the game: full hit and wound rerolls vs enemy units while within 6" of the bearer.

 

They obviously screwed this up, so don't count on it. The first sentence of the relic is to choose an enemy unit before the battle. But they changed the 2nd sentence to ‘Until the end of the battle, the bearer has the following ability: ‘Seal of Oath (Aura): While a friendly Ultramarines Core or Ultramarines Character unit is within 6" of the bearer, each time a model in that unit makes an attack against an enemy unit, you can re-roll that attack’s hit roll and you can re-roll that attack’s wound roll.’’

 

So the first sentence does nothing, you just choose a unit for funsies because the 2nd sentence says "an enemy unit". 

El oh bloody el.

Expect that to be clarified quickly.  There is no way they meant it to be a full reroll aura against whatever you want.  

[frightnight]

Yeah we've seen it, but it's obviously an error so there's no point in getting excited about it. We can all see the intent from the 1st sentence.

 

I'm only excited about it for the obvious boneheaded error that it is. One little word turned it from "good" to "Infinity Gauntlet" level.

 

I did say it was an obvious screwup in my first post :)

Edited October 5, 2020 by frightnight

[frightnight]

• Chapter Champion is good.

 

The Champion is an interesting case. He loses the storm shield inv/+1sv for the 2nd sword, but gains full rerolls to hit vs characters and you can give him the WL trait and relic because it's keyed off the CHAPTER CHAMPION keyword.

 

Right now he also costs as much as a vanilla Company Champion, not needing the 25 pt upgrade, so he's a steal. I'd expect that to change as well when they notice it/in the new supplement.

[Paulinus]

Is it just me or are Victrix shields still 3++

 

If so that is awesome

[emperorpants]

Is it just me or are Victrix shields still 3++

If so that is awesome

Yup, they retain that 3++ :) Edited October 5, 2020 by emperorpants

[Captain Idaho]

Biggest winner for us here could be the Chapter Ancient. The power sword change is nice and all, but giving a unit +1 to hit in melee and all Ultramarines Core units +1 attack makes for a potent combat force.

 

 

• Chapter Champion is good.

 

The Champion is an interesting case. He loses the storm shield inv/+1sv for the 2nd sword, but gains full rerolls to hit vs characters and you can give him the WL trait and relic because it's keyed off the CHAPTER CHAMPION keyword.

 

Right now he also costs as much as a vanilla Company Champion, not needing the 25 pt upgrade, so he's a steal. I'd expect that to change as well when they notice it/in the new supplement.

Indeed and because he has a 2+ save, against AP-3 he has the same save anyway. ;) Edited October 5, 2020 by Captain Idaho

[justicarius6]

Without the points drop Guilliman's just not worth taking, Calgar is in the same boat. Victrix Guard buff is very good, but why just them and not Honour Guard? I think we all know why... :P Edited October 5, 2020 by justicarius6

[Ishagu]

I've had a think about it all, and here's my thoughts.

 

1: Guilliman

 

Finally he has some unique rules that distinguish him from other characters across the various chapters. It's also nice that he is the only source of non-core re-rolls, as tame as they may be.

 

Unfortunate he didn't gain these unique abilities so much as everyone else had them taken away. Still, the bonuses are more worthwhile than they used to be.

 

-Re-roll morale tests within 12" finally has value to Astartes now that they've lost this rule.

 

-12" universal re-roll aura for results of 1 is probably the best we'll get going forward.

 

-Chapter Master aura without being restricted to a single unit. Very nice

 

-Extra inch to advance and charge was always valuable, and still is now.

 

Despite all this, the cost is so high it has a real detrimental effect to the rest of the army. It becomes very hard to fit any kind of redundancy in. 250-300 is a more fair cost with these abilities. Also the Sword needs to grant an extra D3 attacks on the charge or something, because the Fist is strictly better now.

 

 

2: Calgar

 

Simply not worth it anymore. His weapon has an un-reliable D3 Damage profile, and he generally pails in comparison to other options for other chapters. Azrael costs 175 points, grants 2CP like Calgar and also has a 6" aura that grants core units a 4++ invul. This is so much better that it becomes funny to compare them.

 

Calgar needs a drop of 20-30 points, and an improvement to his weapon. Flat 3 Damage at the least. A generic Gravis Captain with the CM upgrade and relic is a better option and has more reliable damage in CC.

 

 

3: Victrix Honour Guard

 

Much improved rule. You can't target characters near them at all. Fantastic that the shields remain at a 3++ invul, but why aren't their power swords master-crafted!? Give them a 5 point increase per model and the better swords.

 

 

4: Stratagems

 

These still need work, hopefully improved in the next supplement. Ultras currently have 4 good ones:

 

-Rapid Redeployment - Even better in 9th

-Sons of Guilliman - Again, even more valuable in 9th

-Squad Doctrines

-Fall Back and Re-engage

 

We're still lagging behind other chapters but these do have solid uses. That's still only 4 out of two whole pages and most of them are a waste of paper. The codex itself has some nice ones at least.

 

 

5: Psychic Discipline

 

Absolute trash, the Errata didn't improve it. The generic discipline in the codex is now far, far superior.

 

 

6: Tigurius

 

A lot better! Actually has some good powers to cast, and he does so reliably. Worth taking, finally.

Shame the -1 to hit buff can't be used on everything - this is a big loss in utility.

 

 

7: Sicarius

 

Improved, but the sword should be a flat 3 damage. No reason why it's less reliable than every generic master-crafter power sword in the Imperium.

Edited October 5, 2020 by Ishagu

[Captain Idaho]

Hard to argue with your points there. Think you hit the nail on the head with much of it.

 

I'd probably settle for Sicarius having a stock D2 sword though. I'm guessing it's to match the Mortal Wounds it causes on 6s, but still would be nice.

 

I would add to your list Avenge the Fallen since it is pretty solid if the opponent has a big bad target or a few powerful ones they are killing units and you want dead next turn.

[Ishagu]

Yeah Avenge the Fallen is decent.

 

It's one of those strats that you forget to use, and even if you do you forget the effect in the following turns. But yes, it's potentially very helpful.

[Captain Idaho]

I will use this moment to confess I've used it twice and forgotten all other times...

[Subtleknife]

Tbf i would prefer they kept GMan the same points but buffed him further. The Void Dragon is on another level atm. Calgar definitely needs a points drop. I just hope we get another supplement this edition.

[justicarius6]

The Silent King could probably take all three revealed primarchs single-handedly. And he only costs 70 more points than Big Blue.