FAQ is out

[Ishagu]

Guilliman should cost 300 points, and keep the current rules, with a few changes.

 

Calgar is in more need of a boost now.

 

Tiggy and Chronus are the only objectively good Ultras characters now.

[Subtleknife]

I disagree, gman is the leader of the imperium he should be dammed good. I would much rather they justify the current points rather than just reduce points on his current profile.

[emperorpants]

Yeah, from a competitive stand point Guilliman needs a points reduction. No way he is worth 380 when silent king is 450. That said, I'm just really happy that Guilliman has unique abilities, even if it's a case of other units losing things that he didn't. It addresses one of my problems which was Guilliman not feeling unique. Now he does and the abilities are worthwhile. Not at 380 points, but still. :) its not as good as id hoped, but not nearly as bad as was feared. Chapter approved can fix Guilliman right up with a 70- 80 point drop (yes that's more than I originally said, as now I've had more time to think and remember the silent king is 450 for everything he does. Lol).

 

Calgar is a HUGE loser from this. As Ishagu said, just take a Gravis captain with the chapter master buff if you want and you've got a more flexible, cheaper, and overall better option than Calgar who will also do much more consistent damage than Calgar. Honestly though, chapter master in general likely isn't worth it. Neither Calgar nor the upgrade. It's just the upgrade is better if you HAVE to have a chapter master.

 

Love the victrix change. 3++ still on the shields and outright not letting our characters be shot. The wording said ranged attacks can't target characters not just shooting...would this include psychic powers?

 

The chapter ancient turns us into a legit melee threat. Our banner relic is great. It also lets units within 12 ignore morale.

 

Tiggy rocks now with the baseline powers out of the codex. So good. Tiggy + Guilliman (after a points drop) will make vehicles relevant for Ultras. It stinks that he .ca t put the -1 to hit ability on non core, but many of those can use smoke screen, so that helps a bit.

 

I'm actually happy that our strats didn't get limited at all. I half expected rapid re deployment to get limited to not being able to do it after seeing who goes first, as an example. Hopefully our strats will get more dynamic and reflect Ultramarines flavor a bit more than they do now.

 

Agreed with everyone on our psychic discipline. It's not good. Scryers gaze is decent but that's it really. The core book discipline blows it out of the water.

 

Overall, I'm fairly happy with the changes, as things could be MUCH worse. We should be ok with a few key points drops till the next supplement. Shame about Calgar though, he needs a re-work.

Edited October 5, 2020 by emperorpants

[Charybdis]

Even before this I'd stopped running Gulliman or Calgar as I prefer the extra man power and board control for 9th. Shame as having the big G leading your forces into battle is quite simply epic. I'll play him for this reason over efficiency. 

To be fair, balance wise it's fairly difficult to give him the stats or points he deserves as we're the only legion to have a Primarch.

 

In regard to the changes, overall I'm quite happy. I thought marines as a whole would face an almighty nerf hammering they came out of it quite nicely balanced. Ultra's are still looking fairly solid. Not the top tier Marine legion, but still tasty enough to give any force a good go.

 

For my personal wish list in the future Supplement it's for Chronus to cross the Rubicon and have have him commanding a Gladiator.

 

My main irk is Cataphractii and Tartaros not getting access to the 'teleport homer'!!  I'm currently making my way through the Heresy novels and using this on the board with some rather tasty Forgeworld models would have been glorious!

 

What are peoples thoughts on Hellblasters now? I was reconsidering them until I found out about the changes to the Impulsor. Are they now viable? 

Edited October 5, 2020 by Charybdis

[WrathOfTheLion]

I'm not familiar with the more codex side, but are the Chapter-specific litanies removed? It looks to be the case, but wasn't certain.

[BrotherLeonidas]

Guilliman's aura only works on core and characters, not vehicles right?

 

*Page 63 – Roboute Guilliman, Abilities, XIII Primarch

Change ability name and rules text to read:

‘XIII Primarch (Aura): You can re-roll hit rolls for attacks made

by models in friendly Ultramarines Core and Ultramarines

Character units whilst their unit is within 6" of this model.

[emperorpants]

Guilliman's aura only works on core and characters, not vehicles right?

*Page 63 – Roboute Guilliman, Abilities, XIII Primarch

Change ability name and rules text to read:

‘XIII Primarch (Aura): You can re-roll hit rolls for attacks made

by models in friendly Ultramarines Core and Ultramarines

Character units whilst their unit is within 6" of this model.

That aura yes. However he has a second aura that allows anything with the imperium keyword within 12 inches to re roll hit rolls of 1, add 1 to advance and charge rolls, and re roll morale checks. This aura is called master of battle and it was left unchanged, which means it affects non core units, including vehicles. Edited October 6, 2020 by emperorpants

[emperorpants]

Even before this I'd stopped running Gulliman or Calgar as I prefer the extra man power and board control for 9th. Shame as having the big G leading your forces into battle is quite simply epic. I'll play him for this reason over efficiency. 

To be fair, balance wise it's fairly difficult to give him the stats or points he deserves as we're the only legion to have a Primarch.

 

In regard to the changes, overall I'm quite happy. I thought marines as a whole would face an almighty nerf hammering they came out of it quite nicely balanced. Ultra's are still looking fairly solid. Not the top tier Marine legion, but still tasty enough to give any force a good go.

 

For my personal wish list in the future Supplement it's for Chronus to cross the Rubicon and have have him commanding a Gladiator.

 

My main irk is Cataphractii and Tartaros not getting access to the 'teleport homer'!!  I'm currently making my way through the Heresy novels and using this on the board with some rather tasty Forgeworld models would have been glorious!

 

What are peoples thoughts on Hellblasters now? I was reconsidering them until I found out about the changes to the Impulsor. Are they now viable?

 

I'm actually liking the heavy variant for 2 damage uncharged and 3 damage charged. They will wreck other marines and when charged will wreck Gravis, custodes, etc. I also like the assault variant, as 3 shots apiece is pretty great. They might end up being usable now with an apothecary and 5++ due to psychic fortress. Especially in cover.

[BrotherLeonidas]

Ah, thank you for the clarification.

[Prot]

I’ll be honest here.... I stopped using Guilliman a long time ago. In 9 th I gave up on Calgar. He didn’t work for me pre nerf, he sure isn’t making any of my lists now. Which is a shame. I hoped the exact opposite would happen to this iconic character.  For me one of the main draws to UM for me is the characters. I read almost all the novels and I just enjoyed fielding them whenever possible.  Even before Calgar nerfs I just found him too slow and needing too much special attention, and thus slowing down the army in general. I really wish he wasn’t in Gravis. But regardless him and my Aggressors won’t see much play anymore. 

[Captain Idaho]

That's a shame for you, man. I too wish they kept the Terminator version, beyond personal aesthetic choice. Teleporting in is much more effective.

[Ishagu]

My biggest problem with all of this is that we aren't encouraged or rewarded to use this chapter.

 

If our characters are no longer viable, and our strats and psychic powers are lacking, where does that leave the actual play experience?

 

I don't want to use Generic heroes, no name Captains or Chapter Masters. Our characters are legendary in the setting, and well defined. If I'm forced to build my own Chapter Master to remain moderately competitive, thus ignoring the existing lore, then we may as well use different chapter rules until the next Supplement is released.

[Captain Idaho]

I love making my own kitbashed and narrowly converted models, so the weakness of Special characters isn't an issue to me. I do have empathy for those that do like them though. They shouldn't be excluded.

 

What I'd like to see is a bunch of characters that provide something a generic one doesn't, so we can have a decent choice and no auto-includes etc.

 

***

 

To me, playing Ultramarines is a flavour beyond special characters though. Our own rules provides flavour, as does army use on the table.

 

Do my Ultramarines play differently to Salamanders and thus feel different, in a few key areas? That's the box I like ticked.

[Charybdis]

I love making my own kitbashed and narrowly converted models, so the weakness of Special characters isn't an issue to me. I do have empathy for those that do like them though. They shouldn't be excluded.

 

What I'd like to see is a bunch of characters that provide something a generic one doesn't, so we can have a decent choice and no auto-includes etc.

 

***

 

To me, playing Ultramarines is a flavour beyond special characters though. Our own rules provides flavour, as does army use on the table.

 

Do my Ultramarines play differently to Salamanders and thus feel different, in a few key areas? That's the box I like ticked.

Completely agree.

 

In a lore where Legions are bezerker vikings/angels, angst ridden, part cyborg, speed freaks, the Ultra's stand out to me because they're the Legion that succeed through teamwork, being professional and getting the job done.

It seem's to have given them the reputation of being 'bland' within sections of the community, but for me this is what actually makes them so flavourful and stand out amongst their peers. 

 

But do you not think that when designing Ultra's for 8th a good portion of our strength was put into characters? 

 

I have no problem with GW's apparent decision to move away from 'special' characters, I think 9th edition gameplay suits mass mobile units rather than powerful but individual characters. Whenever our own supplement releases I'd like to see strat's introduced that enhance co ordination and tactic's between units beyond any other Chapter or something that allows us to play the objective mission better. 

 

Just an idea but could there be a way to introduce a tactic that brings the Ultra's strength in regard to having the most successor chapters from the lore to the tabletop? Reinforcements perhaps? 

[Ishagu]

"In a lore where Legions are bezerker vikings/angels, angst ridden, part cyborg, speed freaks, the Ultra's stand out to me because they're the Legion that succeed through teamwork, being professional and getting the job done."

 

Yeah that's all well and good, but which of the rules illustrate that specifically? If you put the rules side by side with a custom chapter, or another chapter like DA, RG, etc

[Swordsman]

Honestly, beside the nerf to Calgary, I think play ultra is very rewarding, our chapter tactic is very useful in the usual cqc situation we have in 9th.

 

Stratagems are very good, and if a a bit overpriced, I think guilliman is still a very good force multiplier.

 

We have to see the fw index yet but, for example if the leviathan like other dreads stays in the “core” group the combo with tiggy is still very strong.

Edited October 6, 2020 by Swordsman

[Prot]

Okay so this is just me here....

 

What I think Ultra's did best in 8th, if you were playing them at the most competitive levels, was move around in a giant block with Aggressors at the core (lots of them). This went with our super doctrine, our aura's, our characters, and of course the inherent ability of the aggressor. 

 

You'll notice most of those are gone. 

 

I'm not saying I liked that playstyle, but I could mimic it with other units, to lesser degrees just to make sure I was competitive enough in certain situations. 

 

In my example above, the changes are obvious: Aura's, Characters, the usage of the Chapter Tactics, and the Doctrines have (in each case) been affected either by the unit rules, or the core rules of 40K. 

 

I'm just being honest here, but our move away from CC and shoot is (purely my opinion) not very good. At most I do this once to twice a game and it really depends on the unit, and as we know in 9th, shooting is still VERY strong, and short of something completely CC oriented, I just don't use the ability a lot. In 9th there's an even better chance I don't have to since I can either move a vehicle away from CC and shoot at -1 or just stay in there, and likely shoot the unit a bit better anyway. Plus there are strats to mitigate that situation anyway.

 

If it were me, our troops would have something special... not "SIA" special, but something that denotes the aspect of exceptional well rounded training and superior tactics. I would probably also have more mechanisms to 'enhance' ObSec. (IE: The Black Legion ObSec strat is amazing in 9th.) I would also have more around the Doctrine manipulation....

 

The second defining element is in the strats. This is where you find the unique specialization of your army. It is my hope that this is where we see something when the Supplement is released. We should have temporary, but profound strengths in our specialized units. This makes the removal of the Sternguard strat a REAL head scratcher for me. 

 

+++++++++++++++++++++++

 

Sorry this turned into a longer post, but it's just what's been on my mind since mulling over the big picture of this release, and the interactions with 9th as well. 

 

I can see Ishagu's point. When you really drill down into some of the other chapters, their specializations, their... flavour comes to the top. You know when you are playing against Iron Hands you are going to see an incredibly shooty, valid, survivable opponent. When you play against White Scars, you know there will be several unconventional means of hitting your lines, and going toe to toe. 

 

I know playing White Scars the 'Super Doctrine' is decent, but it's the strats and characters that truly define how the army operates differently from other chapters. And the Chapter Tactics for sure help this, and even the Psychic powers are very indicative of White Scars. (Ours kind of stink.)

 

I'm holding out hope though that the supplement will look a bit deeper at this. 

 

At the end of the day, it's still early. 9th edition is still young and there's still a lot of room for growth here. For right now, I play my Ultra's because they are Ultra's. I've always loved them, and will continue to do so. I've been around some pretty dark times for the boys in blue; many of us have. 

 

Secondly 

[Captain Idaho]

The most ideal trait would be something like HH 30K Ultramarines where we get bonuses for targeting a unit that has already been targeted that phase, or something else that puts emphasis on working together as a well drilled and ordered force.

 

At the moment we have the greatest access to rerolls for our units across the board which is a nice base.

 

What could be done without massive changes to the Chapter Tactic etc is swap some Strategums that don't have much use for a little more character and flavour.

 

As an examplre, Martial Precision could be changed completely so an Infantry squad fires into melee like a vehicle, just like the old days when Ultramarines used their martial precision to fell the Tyranids who ambushed them at close quarters in the first Tyrannic War.

 

Some personal heroics would be cool too. Perhaps a simple upgrade to Sergeants to create "heroes" of the Chapter. An extra wound and attack, maybe a single Mastercrafted weapon. 2 CPs and we get an awesome new hero.

 

Maybe say we can take multiple Honoured Sergeant upgrades?

 

Plenty of ways to do it.

[Prot]

I like the specialized Sargant idea. That plays into exactly what I was alluding to above. 

 

I can't believe I'm saying this, (and it comes from a post someone else made) but maybe I'll be back to the old Aggressors (except with flamers) marching up field waddling up with Calgar. Throw the 'get all Doctrines' strat on them and go to town. I don't know though, I was kind of glad to be done with the Aggressors. 

[Ishagu]

Flamer Aggressors are the real deal, still.

 

Assault is a real threat now, and these guys can hit any infantry unit that tries to charge in with a lot of attacks. I'm glad I have 5 of them painted up!

[emperorpants]

Yeah, Ultras really do need some help. We are pretty much in the same boat we have been. We are just not distinct enough and our special abilities and things that are unique keep taking hits. Ever since our supplement dropped it's been hit after hit. I'm still pleasantly surprised by the FAQ, but that is honestly just because I was expecting us to take it on the chin yet again. Imagine my surprise when some things actually got some buffs (in addition to other nerfs) as opposed to nothing but nerfs. I guess when you are expecting to get hit with a haymaker and instead just take a normal punch to the mouth it's refreshing.

 

Honestly we have been taking heavy hits since soon after our supplement dropped.

 

-First off, when other supplements dropped we saw just how lacking our strats were overall. Yes, some are good, but for the most part they pale in comparison to other chapters.

 

-We could all tell how bad our psychic discipline was from the get go, but when other supplements released it was like rubbing salt in the wound.

 

-Also, as has been mentioned, our CT can be good in some circumstances, but because it's so reactive it'll never be as good as one that gets used every game. Such as literally every other chapter. Our CT can swing games for us, but those games are rare.

 

-Then Guilliman was nerfed from his original aura without enough compensation in points or other abilities. This was the first nerf of course as it was in the supplement from release.

 

-Then with PA we saw the useful of our special characters diminish. Suddenly other chapters could build a comparable Tiggy, a better Cassius, etc. One of things that made us special, our characters, was no longer special. Other chapters could have them too now, in addition to their own tricks.

 

-Then all the chapters hot their own litanies, of which ours was clearly the worst.

 

-Then when 9th hit our super doctrine went from being great to just ok. Suddenly everyone else in the whole game got to move and shoot vehicles at no penalty. Again, one our tricks gets handed out to everyone making us lose more identify.

 

-Then Guilliman gets a 30 point jump, making him jump into the deep end of "for fun games only" territory, where before he was in the shallow end.

 

-Then of course we lose the aggressors double shoot ability. A huge blow for us again. This was one of our last remain tricks. It doesn't even come back as a strat.

 

-Then Calgar gets nerfed into the core of the Earth.

 

It's been constant hits with a few buffs here and there along the way, such as what we got yesterday.

 

As many have been saying, we really lack an identity and unique feel, which is something I've been saying for a long time now. We aren't bad. We can hang with lots of armies and can win games. Our overall power in the grand scheme of the game seems alright at the moment (I do wonder how codex creep will affect us though). The issue is we lack uniqueness and identity. We are also fairly weak when compared to other chapters who also have fun and unique ways to play. As I've said in a previous post, we just play like weaker versions of other chapters. Anything we can do they can do too, in some cases they can do it even better. I feel, as do many others it seems, that Ultras need to getv unique abilities to make them feel distinct and give us an identity, while also bringing our power up to the level other chapters are at. Also, it would be nice if our special characters didn't either suck outright (Calgar) or weren't overpriced out of the game (Guilliman).

 

All this said, i will keep playing Ultras no matter what. I love them and whatever comes they are my main army. I'm sure another supplement will come eventually. Hopefully some of this is addressed. Until then, we certainly aren't bad and we have some good things. We will be fine in the overall game powerwise. We did get some nice buffs this time around. Tiggy is great now, Victrix guard are good, Guilliman will be fine if gets a points drop, etc. There are definitely positives to be had.

 

I hope this doesn't come across as overly negative. That is not what I am trying to do here. I am simply trying to lay out the issues that our Chapter faces that impede my and many other people's enjoyment. These things can't get fixed if we aren't honest about them. Also, don't worry about the length of your post Prot, I think I outdid you with this post, lol. So I apologize for this diatribe.

 

Remember, everything changes. We will improve and get our uniqueness back. Hopefully sooner rather than later. :)

Edited October 6, 2020 by emperorpants

[Charybdis]

The most ideal trait would be something like HH 30K Ultramarines where we get bonuses for targeting a unit that has already been targeted that phase, or something else that puts emphasis on working together as a well drilled and ordered force.

 

At the moment we have the greatest access to rerolls for our units across the board which is a nice base.

 

What could be done without massive changes to the Chapter Tactic etc is swap some Strategums that don't have much use for a little more character and flavour.

 

As an examplre, Martial Precision could be changed completely so an Infantry squad fires into melee like a vehicle, just like the old days when Ultramarines used their martial precision to fell the Tyranids who ambushed them at close quarters in the first Tyrannic War.

 

Some personal heroics would be cool too. Perhaps a simple upgrade to Sergeants to create "heroes" of the Chapter. An extra wound and attack, maybe a single Mastercrafted weapon. 2 CPs and we get an awesome new hero.

 

Maybe say we can take multiple Honoured Sergeant upgrades?

 

Plenty of ways to do it.

This!!

 

I love the HH idea being brought over to 40K in particular. That's exactly the sort of strength and flavour I think of when it comes to the Ultramarines. 

 

In regards to your idea about the Sergeant I suspect that's a route GW may pursue in time. With them pushing their 'Crusade' game I imagine it may be a hook for players of crusade to bring their own developed 'Characters' and fit them into a 'Heroes of the Chapter' mold within the main game. 

Edited October 6, 2020 by Charybdis

[Charybdis]

"In a lore where Legions are bezerker vikings/angels, angst ridden, part cyborg, speed freaks, the Ultra's stand out to me because they're the Legion that succeed through teamwork, being professional and getting the job done."

 

Yeah that's all well and good, but which of the rules illustrate that specifically? If you put the rules side by side with a custom chapter, or another chapter like DA, RG, etc

I agree.

 

Perhaps it's because the rules to enable this require more subtlety and therefore are more difficult to implement? I'm going to take a peak at the HH Ultra's and see how they shaped them for that game.

[Ishagu]

I don't like the HH Ultras at all. Their rules and unique detachments are rubbish. There are a few nice units, mind.

 

One of the things that started to put me off from the HH prior to 8th was how underpowered they felt compared to other Legions, Custodes and Mechanicum.

 

I don't want to copy anything from there, because if anything it has LESS Tactical flexibility.

[Paulinus]

Time for some experimenting.

 

I plan on trying Gman with 4 Victrix Guard moving up. Keep a Chief Apothecary nearby and two contemptors.

 

Bring that to the middle and wreck what ever I can.

 

I’ll see about everything else and how it will play but definitely going to change some things up,