FAQ is out

[Subtleknife]

I think where our suplement missed the mark for capturing our theme is it doesnt pander to the jack of all trades master of none theme that Ultramarines have in the fluff. Our strategies should be able to replicate the stregnths of the other chapters but to a lesser degree. We can't do that effectively imo with our current crop of strats and thus I dont feel the spirit of what the Ultras are supposed to be was adequately captured this time around. Edited October 6, 2020 by Subtleknife

[Ishagu]

That's exactly what they should be doing, yes.

 

There should be strats that replicate abilities that other chapter excel at, but to a lesser degree.

 

Eg:

 

-Iron Hands vehicles count as double wounds for the damage table.

-Give Ultras a 1 CP Strat to confer that effect on to a vehicle for a turn.

 

Another example:

 

-Salamanders can spend a CP or something to allow a unit to fire with the maximum number of flamer shots instead of rolling a D6.

-Give Ultras a Strat that allows a unit to re roll each dice that determines the number of a shots for such weapons.

 

 

Also Ultras should have strats that allow units to:

 

-Teleport in, but give them more restrictions than Raven Guard.

-A Strat that adds +1 to wound in either shooting or combat, but not both in the same turn.

-Gain extra attacks on the charge through a Strat, like BA do in their doctrine, but not the extra strength.

 

So on and so forth. This is how you create a set of varied and adaptive rules for a chapter that is supposed to adapt to any enemy. They need to be viable in multiple play styles and to adapt on the fly - and this is the most important part.

 

Yes, we have a banner that confers extra attacks, but this is added to a list before a game starts. A stratagem allows you to use the ability on the fly even if you haven't planned to bring it, hence it illustrates adaptability.

 

The Ultras shouldn't be the most aggressive, most sneaky, most durable or quickest, but they should be able to do those things to a competent degree when the situation demands it.

Edited October 6, 2020 by Ishagu

[Blindhamster]

soo... you want your cake and to eat it basically. Mimic other chapters abilities for cheap CP? To be fair, you do already mimic BA via one of your banners lol. I dunno, I don't think Ultramarines should mimic other chapters stuff, they should have unique stuff and their own niche.

[emperorpants]

That's exactly what they should be doing, yes.

There should be strats that replicate abilities that other chapter excel at, but to a lesser degree.

Eg:

-Iron Hands vehicles count as double wounds for the damage table.

-Give Ultras a 1 CP Strat to confer that effect on to a vehicle for a turn.

Another example:

-Salamanders can spend a CP or something to allow a unit to fire with the maximum number of flamer shots instead of rolling a D6.

-Give Ultras a Strat that allows a unit to re roll each dice that determines the number of a shots for such weapons.

Also Ultras should have strats that allow units to:

-Teleport in, but give them more restrictions than Raven Guard.

-A Strat that adds +1 to wound in either shooting or combat, but not both in the same turn.

-Gain extra attacks on the charge through a Strat, like BA do in their doctrine, but not the extra strength.

So on and so forth. This is how you crate varied rules for a chapter that is supposed to adapt to any enemy. They need to be viable in multiple play styles and to adapt on the fly - and this is the most important part.

Yes, we have a banner that confers extra attacks, but this is added to a list before a game starts. A stratagem allows you to use the ability on the fly even if you haven't planned to bring it, hence it illustrates adaptability.

The Ultras shouldn't be the most aggressive, most sneaky or quickest, but they should be able to do those things to a competent degree.

Agreed 100%. Something along these lines would address the problem that most of us have. The Ultras not feeling like Ultras. Something like this would make the Ultras feel tactical and unique. In short, they would feel like Ultramarines. Overall power level is secondary to actually feeling like we are supposed to and having our own identity. I'd be happy being the weakest chapter (not saying we are currently) as long as we felt tactical and like Ultramarines, and our overall power level gamewise was good and we were not far behind other chapters. Chapter parity is a good thing.

[Captain Idaho]

Yeah I don't want to copy other factions. May as well not exist.

[Ishagu]

How do you illustrate a jack of all trades Chapter?

 

The strongest chapters are those able to exploit an ability to the extreme. I'm not suggesting Ultras do that at all.

 

Take Iron Hands when they were the strongest by far. They mitigated damage to such a level that some of their units were invincible.

Raven Guard are powerful because they can deliver multiple units into prime damage range or onto objectives without needing expensive transports.

Blood Angels and Space Wolves are the best in CC.

 

I don't want Ultras to match any of those, but to have abilities or traits that can bolster each of those aspects in some way.

 

Currently Ultras aren't particularly good at anything lol, and they are the worst of all chapters in the Psychic phase.

Edited October 6, 2020 by Ishagu

[emperorpants]

Honestly...i can see both sides of the argument. Which is why I'd also settle for some different strats that affect enemy deployment, cp, etc and stronger doctrine manipulation as a super doctrine, like blind hamster suggested a few pages back. I'm not sure what the answer is...but that's the beauty of discussion isn't It? :) Edited October 6, 2020 by emperorpants

[Charybdis]

Another interesting point is are Ultramarines mean't to be the Jack of all Trades legion?

 

When learning about the lore of the legions when deciding which to choose it was the Dark Angels that where considered as this. As the 1st they had to know all specialisms. 

 

How did Ultramarines end up as this? 

 

Personally I'd rather see Ultramarines develop into a more unique identity than copying other legions specialties, although this would be undeniably powerful. 

 

Lore wise the Ultra's are rock solid but for some reason the transfer to the tabletop has left their identity in terms of play style as quite weak in comparison to the other legions. 

 

We're the Legion that built it's own Empire, that is the Ultra's 'power' surely there's some unique gameplay angles to be wrought from this? Should Ultra have their own points system to highlight how they can re-provision weapons armour and recruits faster than other legions? 

[Ishagu]

Sure, develop them into something. Anything.

 

Because right now they are boring, lack dynamic rules and lack power and spice.

[Captain Idaho]

Ultramarines aren't just jack of all trades. They produce strong armed and determined warriors so Strategums that represent their heroic actions and Warriors as I mentioned above would help.

 

Things that could represent their way of war could be things like Doctrine manipulation and unit enhancement using various methods (like fire coordination rules and heroics).

[Ishagu]

Maybe a rule that allows them to attack on close combat for free even if they are removed in a fight? That's heroic.

 

Doctrine manipulation is very boring to me, especially as out super Doctrine has minimal effect. Not to mention strats already exist for this.

 

The co-ordinate fire rules in the HH 30K Ultras are the opposite of Tactical flexibility or strategic play. They force you into certain actions to gain benefits. I absolutely hated those rules, and they actually don't come into play often.

 

Ultras need to:

-Move better

-Fight better

-Do something unique

Edited October 6, 2020 by Ishagu

[Prot]

I think I'd like to see the our UM specialty become 'flexibility'. I like temporarily juicing up a unit in a phase of the game with a cool ability/power, that can be used once per turn, in a phase. As Ishagu points out. 

 

It would take some thinking but an army that is described as flexible but not bland.

 

soo... you want your cake and to eat it basically. 

 

Funny, that's how I would describe a lot of the 'specialist' Chapters like BA/Wolves/Deathwatch/etc.  That's exactly what they got... access to the Codex Astartes, plus a bunch of special rules, and -unique- units. We have some 90's tyrannic vets. (makes whooping noise as he spins in his chair.)

 

I am not trying to start a debate here, but let's remember that historically all of these chapters that didn't want to buy into the Codex Astartes. That was fine, they deviated towards their own style of warfare, and now that Guilliman has rewritten the Codex Astartes, nearly any unit worth its salt is available to all chapters, yet they retain Death Company, Wulfen, Frag Cannons/SIA/special dreads, etc, etc.  

 

Don't misunderstand, I don't want those sorts of chapters to lose anything! I just think the table top identity of UM is quite murky right now. I don't think anyone being honest would disagree with that. 

 

As a mild example: Sternguard strat. It was minor, it was fun, it was an identifier of a chapter that was exceptionally well trained in the Codex Astartes, and had the vet status to back it up. More of this please.

 

These are ideas I've thought of and stolen by other members in this very thread:

 

- I think we are due a Dread/Redemptor ability and/or character. 

- Manipulation of Doctrines (I don't know how to do this to be fair.)

- The Psychic tree is deplorable. I'd rip it up and start over. 

- In the same thought as Psychic abilities, our Strats need a touch up too.

- Sargent abilities(?) So many possibilities here. A unique weapon? An extra attack... Squad Re-rolls ONE to-hit or to-wound dice while Sarge is alive?

- Real wargear. Ultramarines are known for those Gladius' blades, and using a lot of Cawl's newer gear. There's really a big hole here. I mean Guilliman is back, and in novels he has gifted very cool stuff to his top warriors, (most recently that cool  fist he actually got Cawl to rebuild and Roboute gave it to his Captain.) 

 

My hope here is we haven't heard anything about an Ultramarines' Supplement so since we are judging an index book, there's really two things that can happen here: 1. These 'special' Chapters I reference lose their specialty type units. or 2. UM gains one. 

 

I think anyone would vote for number 2? My additonal concern is I never want to have something stupidly strong. I actually stopped using Aggressors w/UM because it just felt ridiculous. Of course that isn't an issue anymore.

 

 

I'm not going to say too much more, because I said more than my fair share and I have a sneaking suspicion we will be doing this over again in about December!

Edited October 6, 2020 by Prot

[Charybdis]

Ultramarines aren't just jack of all trades. They produce strong armed and determined warriors so Strategums that represent their heroic actions and Warriors as I mentioned above would help.

 

Things that could represent their way of war could be things like Doctrine manipulation and unit enhancement using various methods (like fire coordination rules and heroics).

Not sure how well this has translated into the 40K era, but as the War Born they had the rep for adapting and implementing opponents tactics into their own strategies.

 

There could be possible to make Ultra's more durable as the battle goes on to show they're evolving to their opponents tactics? Something similar to the Drukhari's power from pain? Or perhaps Ishagu's Legion copying idea could be utilised but only becoming stronger as the rounds go on. Something that uses your opponents tactics against them. 

[Blindhamster]

remember when they had the whole tau style overwatch? maybe ultramarines should get something like that again.

[Blindhamster]

I think I'd like to see the our UM specialty become 'flexibility'. I like temporarily juicing up a unit in a phase of the game with a cool ability/power, that can be used once per turn, in a phase. As Ishagu points out. 

 

It would take some thinking but an army that is described as flexible but not bland.

 

soo... you want your cake and to eat it basically. 

 

Funny, that's how I would describe a lot of the 'specialist' Chapters like BA/Wolves/Deathwatch/etc.  That's exactly what they got... access to the Codex Astartes, plus a bunch of special rules, and -unique- units. We have some 90's tyrannic vets. (makes whooping noise as he spins in his chair.)

 

I am not trying to start a debate here, but let's remember that historically all of these chapters that didn't want to buy into the Codex Astartes. That was fine, they deviated towards their own style of warfare, and now that Guilliman has rewritten the Codex Astartes, nearly any unit worth its salt is available to all chapters, yet they retain Death Company, Wulfen, Frag Cannons/SIA/special dreads, etc, etc.  

 

Don't misunderstand, I don't want those sorts of chapters to lose anything! I just think the table top identity of UM is quite murky right now. I don't think anyone being honest would disagree with that. 

 

As a mild example: Sternguard strat. It was minor, it was fun, it was an identifier of a chapter that was exceptionally well trained in the Codex Astartes, and had the vet status to back it up. More of this please.

 

These are ideas I've thought of and stolen by other members in this very thread:

 

- I think we are due a Dread/Redemptor ability and/or character. 

- Manipulation of Doctrines (I don't know how to do this to be fair.)

- The Psychic tree is deplorable. I'd rip it up and start over. 

- In the same thought as Psychic abilities, our Strats need a touch up too.

- Sargent abilities(?) So many possibilities here. A unique weapon? An extra attack... Squad Re-rolls ONE to-hit or to-wound dice while Sarge is alive?

- Real wargear. Ultramarines are known for those Gladius' blades, and using a lot of Cawl's newer gear. There's really a big hole here. I mean Guilliman is back, and in novels he has gifted very cool stuff to his top warriors, (most recently that cool  fist he actually got Cawl to rebuild and Roboute gave it to his Captain.) 

 

My hope here is we haven't heard anything about an Ultramarines' Supplement so since we are judging an index book, there's really two things that can happen here: 1. These 'special' Chapters I reference lose their specialty type units. or 2. UM gains one. 

 

I think anyone would vote for number 2? My additonal concern is I never want to have something stupidly strong. I actually stopped using Aggressors w/UM because it just felt ridiculous. Of course that isn't an issue anymore.

 

 

I'm not going to say too much more, because I said more than my fair share and I have a sneaking suspicion we will be doing this over again in about December!

Sure i mean, if you want to get into a debate (despite saying you didn't) Blood Angels are specifically a codex adherent chapter and always have been, the lore clearly has them as genuinely looking up to Guilliman after Sanguinius' death even (except Amit), they have some unique stuff but traditionally it was unique stuff based on their flaw that they had no control over.

 

If we want to get into specifics of the units...

- librarian dreadnaughts, totally agree, should be available to everyone, always felt that way.

- death company - the flaw

- sanguinary guard - our version of honour guard

- furioso dreads - worse than ironclads, but yeah i think the dual ccw dread option should be available to everyone, not that its worth it vs contemptors.

- DC dreads - the flaw

- sanguinary priest - the flaw, but basically an apothecary

- baal predator - lore wise an oddity in that they never shared the STC with admech for some obscure reason, but kind of meaningless now there is the new reaper tank.

 

so yeah we have unique units, but they're mostly worse or par for the course with the core units.

 

We have a bunch of special characters, but so do ultramarines.

 

you have victrix guard, a unique unit that no other chapter gets and can't emulate. And you have the war vets which are pretty cool still and again just as much sense in other chapters too (but it's fine, not like any others fought hive fleets on the same scale as ultramarines or anything :P)

 

 

DA/Wolves/DW all lose access to certain marine units because their lore has them as not following the codex, and in all cases they have better versions of those units anyway.

 

So yeah, IMO BA should be pretty much codex adherent except for death company stuff and sanguinary guard from a unique unit perspective, the rest makes as much sense in other chapters to me.

 

 

Ultramarines shouldn't be able to emulate all other chapters, not even in a limited fashion. They /should/ have a unique thing of their own, which I agree with idaho on, it should relate to teamwork, coordination and probably doctrine manipulation. Something as simple as 3 strats, one for each doctrine that cost 1 CP each, allowing you to therefore have different units in the army performing their ideal role every turn would be cool. a strat to do overlocking fire would be logical (and accurate to previous interations too), something like idaho mentioned where perhaps if one unit shoots at a target, allies that shoot the same target get +1 to hit or something would be cool.

[Subtleknife]

But that is the unique thing about Ultramarines, they are jack of all trades master of none. They need to be able to switch tactics up on the fly. It would be like saying Blood Angles shouldn't be a CC army. The best way to do this would be through stratagem. They wont emulate all chapters perfectly but being able to pull off an ability but in a worse way is a good way to create a fluffy Ultramarines suplement. Currently this is not emulated at all. What various people have proposed on this thread would ensure a much fluffier supplement for the Ultramarines. Edited October 6, 2020 by Subtleknife

[phoenix01]

Legacies of Betrayal: Censure, by Nick Kyme

Thiel doesn't answer. He is under, mind and body making the necessary repairs for him to function again. Ultramarines are particularly good at this recovery. They do it efficiently, rapidly, better than other Legions. It is one of the reasons they are so hard to kill. Of late, they have also had a lot of practice

 

Sounds like this could be a good add on for the Ultramarines somewhere, possibly as part of Scions of Guilliman.

Rapid Recovery: At the end of the Morale phase, roll a D6 for each model lost in any phase during the battle round. On a 6, return this model to play with one wound remaining, placing it as close as possible to its previous position and outside the engagement range with enemy models. If the model was part of a unit, it must be placed in cohesion to the unit. If a model with the APOTHECARY keyword is within 6" of the model, you may reroll a failed roll.

[Charybdis]

 

Legacies of Betrayal: Censure, by Nick Kyme

Thiel doesn't answer. He is under, mind and body making the necessary repairs for him to function again. Ultramarines are particularly good at this recovery. They do it efficiently, rapidly, better than other Legions. It is one of the reasons they are so hard to kill. Of late, they have also had a lot of practice

 

Sounds like this could be a good add on for the Ultramarines somewhere, possibly as part of Scions of Guilliman.

Rapid Recovery: At the end of the Morale phase, roll a D6 for each model lost in any phase during the battle round. On a 6, return this model to play with one wound remaining, placing it as close as possible to its previous position and outside the engagement range with enemy models. If the model was part of a unit, it must be placed in cohesion to the unit. If a model with the APOTHECARY keyword is within 6" of the model, you may reroll a failed roll.

 

It would also align with the lore that the Ultra's can replenish their ranks faster than others through the resources of Ultramar. 

 

Gdubs, make it so at once!

[Ishagu]

How about a re-worked doctrine?

 

Whilst in the Tactical doctrine, any Core Ultramarine model removed due to an enemy attack can immediately fire with one of it's ranged weapons, or attack with one of it's close combat weapons, if within engagement range.

[Captain Idaho]

I'd actually like that but it could be too powerful. Does look good as a Strategum though.

[Subtleknife]

I reckon that should be a one time strat that could replace tactical expertise which is a rather meh strat imo.

[Ishagu]

I reckon that should be a one time strat that could replace tactical expertise which is a rather meh strat imo.

This is a good idea. For one turn all units brace against oncoming attacks to deliver a reply of their own. If it's 3CP it isn't worth it, however, as the opponents can be smart with placements and what units they target.

[Captain Idaho]

Regarding out Chapter Tactic, against assault heavy armies it could be very good, I do accept sometimes it gets no use whatsoever.

 

As such, I'd prefer our Chapter Tactic of falling back and still shooting being a Warlord Trait.

 

I'd love it to be changed to something relevant to the Doctrines. Perhaps it's too powerful to allow units to shift 1 Doctrine either side to what we are in, but something?

[emperorpants]

Regarding out Chapter Tactic, against assault heavy armies it could be very good, I do accept sometimes it gets no use whatsoever.

As such, I'd prefer our Chapter Tactic of falling back and still shooting being a Warlord Trait.

I'd love it to be changed to something relevant to the Doctrines. Perhaps it's too powerful to allow units to shift 1 Doctrine either side to what we are in, but something?

What if we kept fall back and shoot at -1 as our CT, but we had the ability to advance and shoot any of our weapons (including heavy weapons) at -1 added to it, with the stipulation that you can't do both in the same turn? That would create tactical choice and allow our CT to be more useful. It might be too strong, just throwing out the idea.

[Ishagu]

Could just say Ultras have no super Doctrine secondary effect, but all 3 Doctrines are always active, so they get the extra AP on guns and cc.

 

There's so many things that can be done. Hopefully there is a new supplement in the works.