9th Ed Kill Team combos

[Mobius0288]

So for our new players and veteran players alike, lets re-attack kill team combos we can pull off that are either unique to us or are straight brutal. This topic will have to evolve as we don't know all of the stratagems in the generic codex (few more days) and what we will receive in the DW supplement (assuming kill team specific ones, due to key word designations for kill teams).

 

I'll try to knock some generic ones along with my crazy ideas. I know a lot of folks are gonna be focusing on the Indomitor and Spectrus Kill teams because those are the new access units. This could also help some folks save money by just focusing on units that will perform to their liking.

 

Fortis KT

-5 Intercessors (rapid fire), 5 Hellblasters (rapid fire); tried and true, deep striking monsters, works best with an HQ to reroll 1s

---Has potential combat squad combos... 3 intercessors, 2 hellblasters in impulsors, etc.

-5 Intercessors (heavy), 5 hellblasters (heavy); great support unit with good range across the board (heavy hellblasters moved to D2, overcharge D3)

-5 Intercessors, 5 assault intercessors; melee hybrid unit... shoot, charge and chop

-5 intercessors, 5 outriders; T5 unit or combat squaded to have objective secured bikes

 

Proteus KT

*5 Vets are the basis and have all the weapon variety options. You can add Terminators to get fearless, teleport homer ability and 2+ saves... making this unit CHUNKY and can be geared to be shooty or melee. Adding a Vanguard Vet currently ensures a melta bomb can be used in the kill team, no fall back and shoot. They also don't appear to be able to take Heavy Thunder Hammers anymore (supplement?). Bikers can be added to either reach T5 for the unit or combat squaded for objective secure bikes. Do not forget to add a Blackshield to boost melee oriented units.. he can get 2 melee weapons for an extra attack and currently does not have the heroic intervention ability.

 

-5 Vets (DW Boltguns or SB and SS), 5 Terminators (SB and sword, add heavy weapons to liking); very hard to kill, deep strike for best results, able to use DW teleport homer to relocated on next turn

-5 Vets (Melee weapons and SS), 5 Terminators (LCs or TH w/ SS); more SS's make them harder to kill, add a blackshield and potentially give the Sgt a combi-weapon with a melee weapon

-5-8 Vets, 1-2 Terminators, 1 Vanguard Vet (LC, Melta bombs); can be geared as a hybrid shooty unit or straight melee (Blackstar friendly)

-5 Vets, 5 Vanguard; mostly melee oriented but can be used for a slight movement boost before charging

-5 Vets, 1 Bike, 4 Vanguard Vets; fastest moving troop choice and easiest way to string the unit into a charge using the bike's longer base

-5 Vets, 2 Vanguard Vets, 3 Bikers; combat squad.. objective secured Bikers with storm shields

-5-10 Vets (combi-melta); can-opener squad and retains SIA

-5-10 Vets (combi-plasma); great support unit and even better with rerolls

Edited October 6, 2020 by Mobius0288

[Kyoujin]

The 5 Intercessor/5 Assault Intercessor KT doesn't currently make any sense unless you need to free up a troops slot.  Both units were already troops and there are no KT-specific abilities or strategems that they can gain access to as of yet.  They do however lose all Interecessor keywords and therefore can not use either of the Intercessor-specific strategems.  The 5-man ObSec Outrider squad is pretty spiffy though...if you can get past the absurdity of wheeled bikes in 40K battlefields...I can't.

 

Terminators don't make the unit fearless anymore. In fact, none of the X-model gives Y-ability things exist anymore.  The Teleport Homer seems to work though, even on mixed units.  That'll spice things up.

 

Vanguard Vets can indeed take Heavy Thunder Hammers. Codex Spess Mahreens pg.152 "If this unit is from the Deathwatch Chapter, any number of its models can each have their bolt pistol and Astartes chainsword replaced with 1 heavy thunder hammer."

[Lemondish]

The 5 Intercessor/5 Assault Intercessor KT doesn't currently make any sense unless you need to free up a troops slot.  Both units were already troops and there are no KT-specific abilities or strategems that they can gain access to as of yet.  They do however lose all Interecessor keywords and therefore can not use either of the Intercessor-specific strategems.  The 5-man ObSec Outrider squad is pretty spiffy though...if you can get past the absurdity of wheeled bikes in 40K battlefields...I can't.

 

Terminators don't make the unit fearless anymore. In fact, none of the X-model gives Y-ability things exist anymore.  The Teleport Homer seems to work though, even on mixed units.  That'll spice things up.

 

Vanguard Vets can indeed take Heavy Thunder Hammers. Codex Spess Mahreens pg.152 "If this unit is from the Deathwatch Chapter, any number of its models can each have their bolt pistol and Astartes chainsword replaced with 1 heavy thunder hammer."

 

Not only that, but by taking the Kill Team version of those two squads you lock yourself out of Intercessor specific Stratagems (since the Fortis KT does not carry the proper Keyword for those strats). 

 

These Kill Teams seem a bit half-baked to me. What I liked the most out of the Kill Team concept in 8th was that you were encouraged and rewarded for diversifying who was added to a team. Now, it feels like most of the reason why you would add a particular unit to the team is to spam it for the remaining slots and then combat squad it off to do what it normally did, just now with the Troops role.

 

In 8th, you could build diverse teams with unique abilities that made them more flexible. In this Index, building Kill Teams is just a complicated way of shifting a unit from one Battlefield Role into the Troops role, and in some cases it is a trap choice.  

 

I will say that the Spectrus one is my favourite because it reminds me of the old Kill Team benefits you would get out of mixed units. All of that is by virtue of carrying forward the data sheet abilities for these units and upgrades. The Infiltrators in the unit can do a lot of heavy lifting with the Comms Array, Omni-Scrambler, and Helix Gauntlet all affecting things that aren't Infiltrators. The Haywire Mine from Incursors brings a unique option, and Reivers providing the Terror Troops and Shock Grenade keyword to a group of Incursors is a fun design.

Edited October 6, 2020 by Lemondish

[Debauchery101]

The biggest thing for DW and the kill teams is that you basically can field just about anything and have it be troops choices...potentially bypassing any rule of limits and granting stuff obsec that never gets it....like 5 eliminators, 5 outriders, 5 vanguard vets, 5 terminators and 5 reivers....1 of those can infiltrate, 3 can deep strike and the outriders are basically really fast heavier intercessors with more dakka and choppa for days

[leth]

I feel like every kill team I want to make it work combat squaded or not.

 

5 man vets with bolter stormshield - 5 man bikes

5 man intercessors - 5 man outriders

5 man Infiltrators

i don’t see the gravis with eliminators being worth it since they have such different targets unless you are planning to go 5-5. It’s rough to come up with a combo for the heavy intercessors other than a 5 man bolter inceptor unit.

[Debauchery101]

As someone who plays raptors i really enjoy the flexibility of having varied troops with baked in deep strike and advanced deployment.

 

I kinda wish the base for the Spectrus was incursors vs Infiltrators since they're cheaper, better and per the kill team rules you seem to need only 1 Infiltrator or infil sgt to give the unit omni scramblers..which could be nice if you did 5 eliminators and 5 Infiltrators. Make two 4/1 combat squads to get more denial area

 

The comms array most likely won't have any use. Phobos Lts and Cpts ...meh for DW. If we have access to the Phobos HQs id take the librarian and give him lord of deceit

[Debauchery101]

I feel like every kill team I want to make it work combat squaded or not.

 

5 man vets with bolter stormshield - 5 man bikes

5 man intercessors - 5 man outriders

5 man Infiltrators

i don’t see the gravis with eliminators being worth it since they have such different targets unless you are planning to go 5-5. It’s rough to come up with a combo for the heavy intercessors other than a 5 man bolter inceptor unit.

5 hvy intercessors and 5 multimelta Eradicators...aka 20 shots

[angrom]

I see a lot of deepstrike this or that. Let's not forget that we completely lost our stratagem to put in reserve and deepstrike anything and the beacon angelis is gone as well

for now.

Sad for strategic play really.

[CCE1981]

I don’t really want to go through hours of youtube to see if this works, but take the Phobos killteam and combat squad 1x reiver with 4x Incursors to apply -2 leadership on chaff units to get rid of them faster. You can also get 5x Eliminators combat squaded, since one of their biggest weaknesses is few models.

[Lemondish]

 

I feel like every kill team I want to make it work combat squaded or not.

 

5 man vets with bolter stormshield - 5 man bikes

5 man intercessors - 5 man outriders

5 man Infiltrators

i don’t see the gravis with eliminators being worth it since they have such different targets unless you are planning to go 5-5. It’s rough to come up with a combo for the heavy intercessors other than a 5 man bolter inceptor unit.

5 hvy intercessors and 5 multimelta Eradicators...aka 20 shots

[GrinNfool]

Eh with most kill team combos not actually offering much benefit to the unit as a whole outside of getting to classify bikers as infantry, or obsec on things that aren't normally troops, I honestly think kill teams are bland and pricey for little gain.  I certainly hope the impending supplement fixes that of course, but thats just how it stands right now.  I only see merit in a few setups.

 

The tried and true 5 biker/5 vets or 3-4 bikers 1-2 VV/5 vets, combat squadded out.  As stated above, you get to move through ruins with bikers, even up and down floors due to being treated as infantry,  With a reasonable melee unit to hide a HTH or stormshield t5s.

 

The intercessor/hellblaster set up hurts a bit though since we have no way to teleport them at present, outside of the flank strategem but that will cost at least 2cp I believe.  Still though there is merit in stalker/heavy or doubling up on assault.

 

Intercessors/outriders, either keep them together for majority t5 like aggressors used to be, or combat out for outriders that are obsec and move through ruins and up and down floors.

 

Obviously throwin an odd term or 2 in a vet squad is still helpful for getting saves in there, but with SBs being less valuable honestly I think I would rather just take a drop pod with hvy flamers and infernus being 12" so can't take a term in that unless going corvus route.

 

The only use I see for Indomitor is hiding eradicators behind ablative wounds from hvy ints, or for some reason wanting to still run agressors and throwing an inceptor in there that combat squads, otherwise that kill team has an identity crisis, the base team wants to be at 24"+ 2 of the addons wants to be 18" or less, and the other barely can be 24", the kill team just seems poorly thought out especially with including units offering not other benefit currently.

 

Spectrus kill team actually has some potential but only because reivers rules, and you can use the special infiltrator upgrades to benefit models that wouldn't always get it, with the whole squad being able to start forward I think it might have a chance, but then infiltrators being the base over incursors hurts the squad a bit, but not horribly.  Mostly due to being able to place a hybrid unit mid table.  We might the only chapter in the game to be able to actually use reivers, not that they are great but, a model or 2 might see the table, which is model or 2 more than any other chapter will even consider lol.  Elims are the oddball here, I guess you could just buy 3 and 2 reivers (cheap) and combat them out to act as bodyguards?  The big draw of this squad though is infiltrators getting helix or the vox guy, + haywire + reiver's ability to remove obsec. 

 

I can't stress that last point enough, reivers remove obsec, and we can include them in a unit that is obsec,  If you have this squad you will always hold the obj over your opponent thats freaking amazing, its basically super obsec.

Edited October 7, 2020 by GrinNfool

[Lemondish]

I have to believe the keywords mean something. 

Or that this was something they threw together because they weren't comfortable with providing the whole set of Supplement rules for the faction in an Index and this is just to get by. I know they've said that, but there are many different layers of 'get by'. 

[Kyoujin]

 

-snip-

 

I can't stress that last point enough, reivers remove obsec, and we can include them in a unit that is obsec,  If you have this squad you will always hold the obj over your opponent thats freaking amazing, its basically super obsec.

Unfortunately the Spectrus Killteam can not use the strategem to remove ObSec since it does not get the REIVER keyword from its Reivers.  Hopefully that will change with the release of the supplement.  Though given how shoddy and low-effort this temp-supplement was I don't want to get my hopes up.

[Lemondish]

 

 

 

-snip-

 

I can't stress that last point enough, reivers remove obsec, and we can include them in a unit that is obsec, If you have this squad you will always hold the obj over your opponent thats freaking amazing, its basically super obsec.

Unfortunately the Spectrus Killteam can not use the strategem to remove ObSec since it does not get the REIVER keyword from its Reivers. Hopefully that will change with the release of the supplement. Though given how shoddy and low-effort this temp-supplement was I don't want to get my hopes up.

Exactly this.

 

The only thing Reivers provide is the Terror Troops rule and access to the Shock Grenades keyword.

[Prot]

Guys, I see a lot of stuff we are correcting/debating that may change a lot when the supplement comes out. 

 

Let's be a 100% honest with ourselves, there is an excellent chance GW ripped through this FAQ to get people playing. 

 

I see a lot of deepstrike this or that. Let's not forget that we completely lost our stratagem to put in reserve and deepstrike anything and the beacon angelis is gone as well

for now.

Sad for strategic play really.

 

Gees, I didn't even catch that. In my group I'll just use the old Strats til new ones come out. I mean that seriously strips a lot of flavour out of the heart of the army. I'll apologize profusely later if I'm wrong, but I can't see us losing that.

 

I think I said this elsewhere but 5 Heavy Intercessors and 3 Eradicators will probably be my juice until the supplement comes out. That's nasty hard to shift and will scare the heck out of a lot of units. 

 

I don't know about Assault Intercessors. It's kind of ironic our trait involves re-rolling 1's in assault vs xenos... Literally it's the last thing I plan for with my Deathwatch. Could it come in handy? I suppose, but I've always felt playing to our strength meant using these great combo's of imbedded strong weapons within ObSec squads of troops. 

 

I'd also like to explore the Phobo's related combo's but that's yet another mess of rules that aren't quite ironed out yet (strat wise again.) 

 

That's why I think a 'safe' bet is the Heavy Intercessors and Eradicators. Always useful, fairly pedestrian in rules, and flexible. 

[MadEdric]

I'm looking over them and seems the Proteus will most likely play the same, though I'm unsure that vanguard vets will be a part of mine from now on.

Fortis looks like helblasters imbedded in is good, or combat squad with 5 outriders.

Indomitor does just look heavy intercessors and eradicators, though combat squads with aggressors or inceptors is nice, expensive, but nice. I'm hoping the gravis sgt will be able to take other weapon choices, so could build a new bully squad.

Spectrus is a head scratcher, why take incursors with infiltrators? I see no use in this. Pretty much the same with reivers. We all know Eliminators could work well, but only really if you combat squad them.

So what I'm really seeing with these teams is ways to cycle in non obsec units, combat squad them to get them obsec.

[leth]

One other thing to consider is that we have kill teams that can take advantage of the all phases strategem. We can reliably have heavy, rapidfire, assault, etc weapons all in the same kill team.  A solid strategem for us to take advantage of.  I will have a lot better idea once I see all of the sheets and catch any of the little changes. I am feeling inceptors might have a place as well. 

Edited October 7, 2020 by leth

[Prot]

Honestly in Deathwatch I find the least use out of that multi Doctrine strat. Basically because we don’t have a super Doctrine. That doesn’t mean it’s bad but I don’t find quite the benefit that I see with some other armies.  Maybe terminators or Outriders flat out enjoy it most?

I made a list for a game tomorrow.  I was going to use my Ultras but I want a feel for this even if it is an FAQ. 
 

Trying to use models I have, I only see using 1 Vet style Kill team and that is largely to get my characters hidden in a squad in a Corvus. 
 

I’m going to use 2 more expensive troops... they will have Stalker boltrifles mixed with 5 Outriders, which will combat squad. The final squad will be regular Bolt rifles and 3 Eradicators. 
 

The eradicator squad will join Heavy Intercessors when they come out. 
 

the bad news is it will cost me 2 CP pretty much when I want to use Transhuman.  
 

The rest of the falls outside the scope of the thread but it’s expensive, and there’s not much room for more troops. 

[Master Sheol]

Until the real supplement drops fir now the main advantage of the killteams is to make troops/obiettivo units that are in other Lust sections and to overcome the 3 models limit on eliminators and outsiders

 

But i wait the supplement to see the complete ruleset before making any evaluation on the new DW

[Charlo]

Deathwatch feel like the "Eldar" archetype now. Their units do one job and do it very well (which I guess is true for Primaris in general...) but Deathwatch do it on a larger scale.

 

I think just units of "Veterans" maxxed out to get a big unit with SIA will still be relevant, but maybe only really with Stalkers so they have some AP and Dmg, though Doctrines seeminly work in tandem with SIA now so basic bolters can do some work in Tactical and would let the Vets have a reason to close in and swing those S5 Power Swords!

[Lemondish]

I'm looking over them and seems the Proteus will most likely play the same, though I'm unsure that vanguard vets will be a part of mine from now on.

Fortis looks like helblasters imbedded in is good, or combat squad with 5 outriders.

Indomitor does just look heavy intercessors and eradicators, though combat squads with aggressors or inceptors is nice, expensive, but nice. I'm hoping the gravis sgt will be able to take other weapon choices, so could build a new bully squad.

Spectrus is a head scratcher, why take incursors with infiltrators? I see no use in this. Pretty much the same with reivers. We all know Eliminators could work well, but only really if you combat squad them.

So what I'm really seeing with these teams is ways to cycle in non obsec units, combat squad them to get them obsec.

 

Interesting take, because I see Spectrus as being the only one that benefits from throwing other members into it and keeping them mixed. Think of an Eliminator squad with a Comms Array Infiltrator allowing you to, if you run Phobos LT. and Captain, reroll hits and wounds of 1 no matter where on the board they are alongside Smoke grenades. Or Reivers added to provide some Incursors Terror Troops and Shock Grenade to go with their Haywire Mine. As far as unique combinations of abilities goes, only Spectrus achieves this whereas the rest of these designs are 5 of the base and 5 of something else that is immediately split off, which means the only value we get is that they now have obsec. If all forming a Kill Team provides is allowing you to give obsec to units that normally don't have it, then the mechanic has failed. It is so lame, especially when there are so many trap situations that the GW rules themselves got wrong (look at the KT Cassius datasheet for instance). 

 

Which is why I have started to hate this direction and hope this is just a temporary thing they tested before going a completely different direction and we get an actual Kill Team design that isn't so focused on combat squadding. Would have just been easier to extend Obsec to all Core units instead of this mess. 

Edited October 8, 2020 by Lemondish

[Prot]

That's an interesting take Lemon, but I have to confess I don't even dare look at that combo right now because I fear it will be stripped of most of the goodies you mention. 

 

My ideas come from a combination of 1) having strong Obsec units, and 2) being able to effectively Combat Squad those units.

 

Anything deeper than that seems a bit scary.

 

I don't know who wrote this Supplement, but it is imperative the individual be well versed in these combo's so that the -intent- is absolutely clear. Deathwatch are a bit more complex, and I fear our killteams may even need a FAQ post supplement if history tells us anything!

[Boyadventurer]

I can't imagine this is the direction they want KTs to actually go in -- just combat squadding stuff to break the usual model count limits and give Obsec to everything feels real gamey. I feel like they did a good job balancing out the SIA and creating interesting options now, so I have hope they can get KTs sorted out.

[Lemondish]

I can't imagine this is the direction they want KTs to actually go in -- just combat squadding stuff to break the usual model count limits and give Obsec to everything feels real gamey. I feel like they did a good job balancing out the SIA and creating interesting options now, so I have hope they can get KTs sorted out.

At the very least, I really want to see Blackshields return to Kill Teams.

 

And it is totally possible that there's some crazy interactions with those new KT specific Keywords.

 

But I'll be cautious with my expectations after this Index.

[RandyB]

 

I can't imagine this is the direction they want KTs to actually go in -- just combat squadding stuff to break the usual model count limits and give Obsec to everything feels real gamey. I feel like they did a good job balancing out the SIA and creating interesting options now, so I have hope they can get KTs sorted out.

At the very least, I really want to see Blackshields return to Kill Teams.

 

And it is totally possible that there's some crazy interactions with those new KT specific Keywords.

 

But I'll be cautious with my expectations after this Index.

 

 

Hunh. I originally read the Index as allowing models from the datasheet; thus, Blackshields could be included on a Kill Team as they are on the Deathwatch Veterans datasheet. On a re-read, however, the rules read differently than I thought - only specific models can be added to a Kill Team, and the Blackshield is not on the list.

 

This is only an issue for tournament-standard games, though. And I believe that RAI is that Blackshields can be used in a Kill Team.

 

The Supplement will tell the tale.