9th Ed Kill Team combos

[Lemondish]

 

 

 

I can't imagine this is the direction they want KTs to actually go in -- just combat squadding stuff to break the usual model count limits and give Obsec to everything feels real gamey. I feel like they did a good job balancing out the SIA and creating interesting options now, so I have hope they can get KTs sorted out.

At the very least, I really want to see Blackshields return to Kill Teams.

 

And it is totally possible that there's some crazy interactions with those new KT specific Keywords.

 

But I'll be cautious with my expectations after this Index.

Hunh. I originally read the Index as allowing models from the datasheet; thus, Blackshields could be included on a Kill Team as they are on the Deathwatch Veterans datasheet. On a re-read, however, the rules read differently than I thought - only specific models can be added to a Kill Team, and the Blackshield is not on the list.

 

This is only an issue for tournament-standard games, though. And I believe that RAI is that Blackshields can be used in a Kill Team.

 

The Supplement will tell the tale.

Sure, that's true that it will only usually impact tournament players. Thankfully my friends have allowed me to completely ignore the entire Index and just use the Codex until the supplement releases given how much of the army it completely breaks.

[Mobius0288]

Sounds like we have some good suggestions for the FAQ and rules guys. Best get them in as earlier as you can.

[Cris R]

Deathwatch feel like the "Eldar" archetype now. Their units do one job and do it very well (which I guess is true for Primaris in general...) but Deathwatch do it on a larger scale.

As a 30k and DW player, I also think the faction plays a lot like the 30k legions where most legion infantry units have a dedicated function on the battlefield. Obviously there's major differences between building units in both games - you get a discount with adding more marines to a unit in 30k, for instance - but the parallels are pretty significant. We'll see how it plays out once we get the supplements.

[Lemondish]

Sounds like we have some good suggestions for the FAQ and rules guys. Best get them in as earlier as you can.

Absolutely have, but the supplement has likely already been finalized and printed months ago. Hoping for this to be a temporary set of rules that aren't anywhere close to the final release, but it is hard to expect seismic change when their print business requires such massive lead times.

[Debauchery101]

1 terminator with cyclone

1 sgt hammer and shield

8 vets deathwatch combi-flamers and shields

 

Brutal

[Lemondish]

1 terminator with cyclone

1 sgt hammer and shield

8 vets deathwatch combi-flamers and shields

 

Brutal

I know we're still in love with shields, but I wonder if a unit that wants to be within charge range wouldn't benefit from being killier in melee.

[leth]

I am keeping the shields, simply because I need to keep my units alive to shield characters. Has me seriously considering a 8 man unit in a drop pod(depending on when the abilities are used) just to survive. 

[Debauchery101]

 

1 terminator with cyclone

1 sgt hammer and shield

8 vets deathwatch combi-flamers and shields

 

Brutal

I know we're still in love with shields, but I wonder if a unit that wants to be within charge range wouldn't benefit from being killier in melee.

well a unit like that doesn't need to be as punchy when its most likely going to be firing overwatch with auto hit flamers at anything charging it.

Its a bully unit. Drop it in, wipe a unit off the board and try to hold. Could also be good to drop the terminator if youre not using any homers and put them in a drop pod with an Apothecary

[Master Sheol]

 

 

1 terminator with cyclone

1 sgt hammer and shield

8 vets deathwatch combi-flamers and shields

 

Brutal

I know we're still in love with shields, but I wonder if a unit that wants to be within charge range wouldn't benefit from being killier in melee.

well a unit like that doesn't need to be as punchy when its most likely going to be firing overwatch with auto hit flamers at anything charging it.

Its a bully unit. Drop it in, wipe a unit off the board and try to hold. Could also be good to drop the terminator if youre not using any homers and put them in a drop pod with an Apothecary

You can fire only one Overwatch per turn so the enemy can distract you with a disposable unit before cacchina with the real deal

If you shoot your Overwatch on the shield unit you cannot fire on the real HtH monsters that will charge you unharmed

If you dont shoot the shield unit you can only hope they will fail the charge

 

Just two Hammers to hope to survive HtH with Units like DWK is too optimistic IMHO

 

SS are good but dont forget the blast rules

A 10 men unit is a easy target for units with blast plasma weapons (Devastators, Inceptors, and so on)

Edited October 13, 2020 by Master Sheol

[leth]

If they are getting caught by an unharmed DWK unit then they deserve to get wiped out. That’s just tactical blunder

Edited October 13, 2020 by leth

[Master Sheol]

If they are getting caught by an unharmed DWK unit then they deserve to get wiped out. That’s just tactical blunder

You just need a combined assault stratagem to get the DWK right on their face

So a big unit like That is Overkill and exposed to Swift retaliation

[Charlo]

If they are getting caught by an unharmed DWK unit then they deserve to get wiped out. That’s just tactical blunder

 

Not really.

 

You can't screen out everything and they could always make that 9" charge!

[Debauchery101]

 

If they are getting caught by an unharmed DWK unit then they deserve to get wiped out. That’s just tactical blunder

You just need a combined assault stratagem to get the DWK right on their face

So a big unit like That is Overkill and exposed to Swift retaliation

man you really changed my mind. I had no idea how overwatch worked. I never thought of blast weapons from stuff like inceptors shooting this unit.

I also forgot about the basic strategy of my opponent using screens to block me out and eat overwatch.

I'm just going to quit playing Deathwatch I have no clue on how to play this army.

I really was thinking that the best strategy was to drop these dudes in all by themselves.

Maybe i should deploy them with my chief Apothecary and Judiciar who just came in on a flank inside an impulsor or deploy them behind 5 outriders and outrider chaplain who just made a push to charge? Or maybe behind the 2 haywire mines my phobos team layed down between you and the objective?

I can't make up mind dude can you please tell me how to play

[Debauchery101]

When I use that unit I'm 9/10 likely to have a chaplain in range to bust out catechism of fire when my shooting phase starts. I also wouldnt deploy them with minimal support unless they were able to wipe out a unit completely and I could put them in defensible cover to screw over 'hth monsters' to a degree. Theres a lot more going on with what choices are made beyond the black and white text that describes the loadout. First and foremost always think on what that unit combos with. If you dont youre going to get hit with a gotcha moment. Then the salt will flow

[leth]

My point was that presenting a tactical error as a counter point to a list building comment is not really relevant since tactical errors are game and situation specific and list building is more universal. 
 

so saying “that unit would get wiped out by DWK so it won’t work”? Not helpful. Saying “it would not be able to hold its own against DWKs or similar CC monster units, what in your list can? “ helpful as it helps someone think about the role the unit plays within their list. 
 

personally I like the unit, but I don’t like that taking the terminator severely limits transport options. I would much rather have the option to drop pod or rhino the unit(depending on rules timing) and have a more dedicated unit fill those roles, especially since our buffs are more targeted going forward. I do like the idea of a CC veterans unit with storm shields but I have to see how they compare to Bladeguard. 

[Debauchery101]

My point was that presenting a tactical error as a counter point to a list building comment is not really relevant since tactical errors are game and situation specific and list building is more universal.

 

so saying “that unit would get wiped out by DWK so it won’t work”? Not helpful. Saying “it would not be able to hold its own against DWKs or similar CC monster units, what in your list can? “ helpful as it helps someone think about the role the unit plays within their list.

 

personally I like the unit, but I don’t like that taking the terminator severely limits transport options. I would much rather have the option to drop pod or rhino the unit(depending on rules timing) and have a more dedicated unit fill those roles, especially since our buffs are more targeted going forward. I do like the idea of a CC veterans unit with storm shields but I have to see how they compare to Bladeguard.

I wasn't directing that rebuttal your way.

But as for the terminator option...its for the teleport homer. Each unit with a terminator can have one. Its not a main building block of strategy but its definitely a good tool to have. If you have a chaplain with deep strike then together you can drop in and assassinate almost anything then pull out

Edited October 13, 2020 by Debauchery101

[leth]

Unfortunately it doesnt work since the teleport ability requires the terminator key word (as made clear by the bold face) and the kill teams only gain that word for the purpose of transport capacity and bolter discipline. 

 

Unless you combat squad off 5 terminators that is, or all other models die. 

Edited October 13, 2020 by leth

[Mobius0288]

Unfortunately it doesnt work since the teleport ability requires the terminator key word (as made clear by the bold face) and the kill teams only gain that word for the purpose of transport capacity and bolter discipline. 

 

Unless you combat squad off 5 terminators that is, or all other models die. 

Oh, where have I seen this before.... in 8th edition with bolter discipline! Hah that was a hostile thread. If the kill teams are in their semi-final form, I could see this being a point of contention.

 

Folks are going to read it one of two ways:

-...if this unit contains a terminator model...

-...if this unit contains a Terminator model...

 

While the keyword thing may require some investigating in the codex (don't have mine yet), they literally spelled out that a terminator model is the prerequisite to use the DW teleport homer. This is also confirmed in kill team cassius's rules. I would personally roll with the former but if you want an end all, be all answer, I'd email them in hopes of a day 1 FAQ.

 

 

 

1 terminator with cyclone

1 sgt hammer and shield

8 vets deathwatch combi-flamers and shields

 

Brutal

I know we're still in love with shields, but I wonder if a unit that wants to be within charge range wouldn't benefit from being killier in melee.

well a unit like that doesn't need to be as punchy when its most likely going to be firing overwatch with auto hit flamers at anything charging it.

Its a bully unit. Drop it in, wipe a unit off the board and try to hold. Could also be good to drop the terminator if youre not using any homers and put them in a drop pod with an Apothecary

 

 

I'm toying with similar thoughts... a drop pod would be way more beneficial and give us protection if auspex scan makes its return. Gets us on the board immediately.

 

Sgt (Combi-melta, xeno sword? fist?)

BS (HTH) || (TH + chainsword) || (LCs) ...dual weapons give him 4 attacks

Vet x2 (DW Boltgun or SB + SS)

Vet (Combi-flamer + SS) or (DW Frag Cannon)

 

Then to beef it up to 8 or 9 dudes for the drop pod, probably more boltguns and SS's. Shotguns could work to if you're just after infantry. Or maybe sacrifice the points to bring an infernus. I would almost think bring a terminator with Hammer and Shield would be a pretty durable unit.. AP-3 would force it to a 4++? Shooting wise, you'd probably see AP-2 during specific doctrines or artillery weapons against your kill team and that would still keep at a 3+ save with a terminator. Super expensive though. Some things to think about.

 

Another potential question, at least for Blackshields... he gets an extra base attack for 2 melee weapons being equiped. Do you think a storm shield would or should count as a "melee weapon?"

Edited October 13, 2020 by Mobius0288

[leth]

It literally changes font and text to the keyword font and text for just that one word. Anyone arguing otherwise is pushing it. They even specifically say they gain the terminator keyword if only terminators are in the unit(in the same font). 
 

I play Deathwatch and wish we had the option but it doesn’t get much more clear that it is a keyword font. 

Edited October 13, 2020 by leth

[Debauchery101]

Unfortunately it doesnt work since the teleport ability requires the terminator key word (as made clear by the bold face) and the kill teams only gain that word for the purpose of transport capacity and bolter discipline.

 

Unless you combat squad off 5 terminators that is, or all other models die.

Well I already lawyered this with 2 ITC t.o.s.

The way you look at is...your kill team of vets has a datasheet with only vets, sgt and BS. So yes there is no unit wide terminator keyword unless that's all that's left or combat squaded. That's to prevent using stratagems for the whole killteam that are normally for stand alone terminator squads.

We select members as allowed from other datasheets to be part of this kill team and their abilities/key words are their own while in a mixed unit. Unless specified the do not lose any keywords or abilities. As well as grant them.

 

There is only 1 example that a unit loses something for joining a killteam...thats turbo boost for biker..

 

The heading under 'Abilities' literally says

"The following change to ONE ability applies:"

Then lists the turbo boost restriction for veteran bikers...a terminator is still a terminator like a veteran biker is still a veteran biker.

That is a very targeted change to an ability. They made none for teleport homer

It says "if it contains a TERMINATOR MODEL"

kill teams change to a Terminator Squad if that's all that's in there..which isn't a requirement for the ability.

 

Most precedent issues in terms of unit actions and keywords with 40k rules end up granting you everything and they tell you any restrictions due to certain circumstances.

I dont see this one as a very hard one to argue.

 

In the same conversation when going over killteam makeups the issue of choosing 5 outriders/eliminators for a kill team seeing how their datasheet allows for 3 in a squad...again..in the killteam options it says Choose 5 of ANY of the following ....I was actually open to conceding to the normal squad limits for the add on units but there were a couple others who pushed for the RAW in the killteam section

There's definitely some things I'm sure will be capped and further defined as well as more options added...but they for the time being have laid out at a pretty specific format.

 

I'm open to a good argument opposing this. I know not every TO agrees from event to event that's cool but hopefully we can always get a chance to go over different viewpoints

Edited October 13, 2020 by Debauchery101

[Debauchery101]

It literally changes font and text to the keyword font and text for just that one word. Anyone arguing otherwise is pushing it. They even specifically say they gain the terminator keyword if only terminators are in the unit(in the same font).

 

I play Deathwatch and wish we had the option but it doesn’t get much more clear that it is a keyword font.

They're quite specific in all areas. They know for sure that terminators are added to killteams.

If they wanted it to be for terminators only they would have not have included any text like "if it contains a Terminator model" ....in a terminator squad there is no IF it contains a terminator...the only if is if it has a teleport homer. There for sure is IFs in relation to Proteus Kill team. Kill teams are a deviation from normal datasheet units...if you dont add anything to the deathwatch veterans unit via proteus options..its not a killteam. Its just deathwatch vets.

Edited October 13, 2020 by Debauchery101

[Lemondish]

Yeah, it's pretty clear that they messed up here.

 

Page 3, under Keywords, in the section relating to Building Kill Teams: "Models in Kill Team units do not retain any keywords from their original datasheet." This is a keyword. 

 

Page 4, under Keywords for Proteus Kill Teams: "While a Proteus Kill Team unit only contains Deathwatch Terminators, it has the Terminator keyword." The bolded are also denoted as keywords. 

 

Now, Pages 9 and10 include the rules for Deathwatch Teleport Homers, which state: "Once per battle, at the start of your Movement phase, if this unit contains a Terminator model". This is also a keyword. 

 

So I'm not sure where folks are finding the opportunity to argue otherwise - RAW this is how things go. 

 

But RAI seems to imply that it is not intended to be this way, given the only time that the poor Kill Team Cassius unit would be available to use this ability is when only poor Branatar remains. 

[Qui-Gon]

This is the Bolter Discipline rule from 2018 all over again with regards to Deathwatch which they had to errata into the Mixed Units rule to say "For the purposes of the Bolter Discipline, Terminator models have the TERMINATOR keyword."

However, until there is an explicit correction, play with the RAW.

Edited October 14, 2020 by Qui-Gon

[Debauchery101]

Reading the keywords section the bottom lists the replacement faction keywords and then later is does in a way define base keywords.

Then you read faction focus articles on warhammer community talking about killteams and "the movement tricks you can pull with teleport homers"

Anyways I'm glad I got a pass to use it that way in the weeks to come. But npow I feel a bit less solid to argue though because I had 'faction keywords' in my head. Because it says models do not retain any keywords but then say "instead Kill Teams have the following FACTION KEYWORDS" then reading the KILL TEAM section it says the Kill Team..has certain keywords and that some selections grant those keywords to the whole Kill Team.

 

So my brain and logic been seeing it as there keywords that blanket the kill team, altered faction keywords and when using abilities from one models datasheet only its original keywords apply to using the ability. Kind of like how they have changed stuff with the aggressors in their previous iteration.

Edited October 14, 2020 by Debauchery101

[Debauchery101]

I guess if you wanted to get really salty with rules proteus kill teams can't take black shields either Edited October 14, 2020 by Debauchery101