5 Aggressors vs 5 Bladeguard Veterans

[Ishagu]

On foot, supported by characters. Which unit is more appealing?

 

I'm thinking about 5 Aggressors with Flamers. Quality Str8 attacks and they are scary to assault.

 

Bladeguard are faster, have better saves and hit more reliably in combat, but only at Str5. The shooting is much worse too.

 

Both units would be supported by a Psyker that can shroud a unit or confer a 5++ save.

[TheNewman]

...I seem to have missed something here, which powers grant shroud to a non-phobos unit or confer a 5++?

[Ishagu]

Psychic Fortress is a 6" 5++ bubble.

 

The -1 to hit comes from Tigurius.

[Captain Idaho]

On foot it's Aggressors all the way. Bladeguard on foot are slow even if faster than Aggressors, so being able to shoot will make up for it somewhat.

[Blindhamster]

I think it's close, I've a feeling Aggressors are probably a little better, but would probably go with bladeguard because they look cooler.

[Riddlesworth]

Been weighing this up myself.

 

I like apothecary or chaplain for aggressor support (6+ fnp, +1 to hit/wound)

 

For the actual question, bladeguard with shrouding will be super resilient and would be a good unit for getting into the mid board and holding centre for secondaries etc.

[Prot]

I am repeating myself from the Ultramarine thread, but for UM, it's probably Aggressors (as much as I hate to admit it.)

 

As mentioned, the flamer variant for me. The ability to apply all Doctrines to this unit is pretty potent.

 

The thing is the example is 'on foot'. I'd never use Bladeguard on foot unless I was building a castle personally. (which isn't my playstyle.)

[Charlo]

Out of interest, why is the Flamer version (2-12hits) better than the Bolt/ Frag (7-12 hits), obviously assuming perfect BS but just wondering why the preference?

[Karhedron]

The flamer version is somewhat cheaper and auto-hits on overwatch. With the 12" flamers in 9th, I think they may have the edge.

[Alcyon]

I think one of the most important differences is T5 vs. the 4++ save. The latter means you can run different buff characters, like an Ancient granting +1 Attack and ObSec, whereas the Aggressors are more reliant on the new Psychic Fortress - and even that is only a 5++ so they are more vulnerable to things like Hellblasters.

 

Accordingly I think Bladeguard are the better option if you have to footslog; they might get an additional turn of shooting thanks to the extra 6" of range on their pistols, but more importantly they just have higher resilience to a broader range of weapons and they move faster. It's unfortunate because BGV can ride in an Impulsor and Aggressors have to either come in from Reserves or ride in an expensive T8 transport with no invuln. 

 

It adds another layer of complexity when you factor in abilities like the Raven Guard's Master of Ambush; I've been planning to use it with Aggressors and a Librarian, but then you need to deploy them behind obscuring terrain because you might not get a psychic phase before they get shot at. Meanwhile the BGV can sit on an objective, withstanding Plasma fire with their 4++ saves, and threatening big damage if anyone tries to charge them off it. A Judiciar might be a good option in either case too to further deter charges.

[Medicinal Carrots]

Out of interest, why is the Flamer version (2-12hits) better than the Bolt/ Frag (7-12 hits), obviously assuming perfect BS but just wondering why the preference?

Flames average 7 hits, 2 guaranteed. Bolts/frag average 6.33 hits, 0 guaranteed, and also suffer from any -1 to hit your opponent can use.

[Alcyon]

Out of interest, why is the Flamer version (2-12hits) better than the Bolt/ Frag (7-12 hits), obviously assuming perfect BS but just wondering why the preference?

 

The flamer version is somewhat cheaper and auto-hits on overwatch. With the 12" flamers in 9th, I think they may have the edge.

 

There's also the fact that auto-hitting overcomes the random number of shots (though probably not if you get to shoot a horde unit that triggers the Fragstorm Blast keyword.) The +1 to wound is there for the Salamanders ability though both units can get it now with the revised Catechism of Fire Chaplain litany. Besides the Blast keyword and the additional 6" of range the Flamestorm is generally better, though it's very close. And of course the Overwatch is way superior.

 

 

Credit to Goonhammer and the Warhammer Stats Engine. 

[Alcyon]

One other factor I thought of is that the Flamers are good at toasting a screen before charging and hopefully getting at the meat. I've been thinking of Aggressors as objective holding units but now I might try using MoA to get off a turn 1 charge, stripping screens so I can charge into vehicles for example with those Power Fists, and using BGV in Impulsors to drive up and park on objectives.

[Charlo]

Cheers guys, a few factors I didn't consider. Solid.

[TheNewman]

Psychic Fortress is a 6" 5++ bubble.

 

The -1 to hit comes from Tigurius.

Thanks.

 

Forgot about that change to Psychic Fortress, that's a big improvement over it's prior incarnation.

 

Shrouding is also the name of the Phobos power that grants character targeting restrictions (more or less) so if Tiggy has something with the same name that's confusing.

[Mandragola]

I think aggressors have to be compared with intercessors. Basically troops can do their job, very well. Auto bolt rifles have become almost as efficient for shooting as aggressors, with a 24” range and on a troops choice. That said, they don’t all have power fists.

 

I think range matters a lot. The difference between 12”, 18”, 24” and 1” for blade guard make a massive difference in terms of your options. Flamers aren’t at all likely to fire on turn 1, for example, but the bolter guys can. The more range you have, the more choice you have in where you go.

[Blindhamster]

but intercesors lack the melee power of aggressors, Aggressors combine okay chaff shooting with genuinely useful melee

[Ishagu]

What I find appealing about the Aggressors is the melee that cab threaten any kind of unit, but their price is a bit steep, imo.

 

In general I find it hard to run an army with sufficient numbers and treats without resorting to spam of certain powerful units.

Edited October 7, 2020 by Ishagu

[Mandragola]

Yeah true. Aggressors with psychic fortress are pretty solid, especially against 1d weapons.

 

One factor in aggressors’ favour vs bladeguard is that they already have -1 to hit, which therefore can’t get any worse. Penalties to hit seem to be more common in 9th so bladeguard won’t always be more accurate.

 

For me I think bladeguard are best in Impulsors, and for assault-based armies. Aggressors would probably suit an army like my foot-slogging Crimson Fists better. And I might still be better off with intercessor spam, spreading power fists around instead of putting them all together.

[Dracos]

I was already moving shooting and charging with Aggressors out of the Shadows so little has changed for me regarding the Gorillas. I’ll be likely reducing them down to only one unit using MoA now though and Infiltrating two units of Bladeguard to counter assault the midfield after my Infiltrators are targeted. I was going to infiltrate two units of Assault Intercessors but the more I think about it I’m looking to bring a unit of 10 out of the Shadows instead.

 

Definitely any to keep using Aggressors though. I think they are the perfect unit for the Adaptive Stratagem.

 

PS: I’m kind of bummed because I don’t think I’m going to be able to afford the points for Heavy Intercessors for my backfield. I wanted to units of five but with all the point hikes on the units that actually do work for me (Inceptors) they might have to get squeezed out. That’s after giving up on using any Eliminators in the new list. So you know how painful that is for Raven Guard? ;)

Edited October 7, 2020 by Dracos

[Riddlesworth]

Honestly, for the model variety, I'll probably end up using both.

 

Bladeguard are great for controlling or flipping objectives. Aggressors have more reach. With chapters that have charge boosts out of reserve (or a chaplain), either can be great out of reserves depending on opponent

[AenarIT]

One RG flame Aggressors unit out of Master of Ambush is still crazy good. Losing the double shooting ability means almost nothing, because moving in the first turn to get way closer than 9" for the subsequent charge was (almost) always the better option already.
Defensively, the BGV are better thanks to the shield and are better suited for objective grabbing duties (since they are more likley to survive once they flip it). 

I'll definitely end up using both as well. Probably 5 Aggressors and 5-10 BGV.

I'm always using 3 Assault Centurions with Strike from the Shadows as well, otherwise I'd bring a second Aggressor unit.