Ultramarine list for the New Codex

[Ishagu]

I've been trying to put together a balanced list that doesn't spam any one unit, and has a nice variety.

I have all the points and I've put together the following list, I'm just missing a few models that are yet to be released:


Ultramarines Battalion Detachment, 2000 points, 12 CP

HQ:
-Primaris Captain, Power Fist, Plasma Pistol, Seal of Oath, Adept of the Codex
-Chief Librarian Tigurius, Psychic Fortress, Might of Heroes, Null Zone
-Primaris Lieutenant, Master Crafted Power Sword, Volkyte Pistol, Storm Shield

Troops:
-10 Intercessors, Power Fist, Bolt Rifles, Grenade Launcher
-10 Intercessors, Power Fist, Bolt Rifles, Grenade Launcher
-5 Heavy Intercessors, Executor Bolt Rifles, Executor Heavy Bolter

Elites:
-5 Aggressors, Boltstorm Gauntlets, Fragstorm Launchers
-2 Victrix Guard

Heavy Support:
-Repulsor, Twin Lascannon, Heavy Onslaught Gatling Cannon, Onslaught Gatling Cannon, Ironhail Stubber, Rocket Pod
-Gladiator Valliant, Smoke Launchers, Ironhail Stubber, Rocket Pod
-5 Eradicators, Melta Rifles


The list benefits from Tigurius, who will reliably cast a 5++ Bubble and add extra survivability to infantry around him by making them -1 to hit against enemy attacks.

There are 15 Gravis Models, and Intercessors to hunt objectives. The 10 man squads can be split if required prior to deployment.

I found it extremely hard to fit Guilliman into a list that also had a good number of infantry units and even a single vehicle. He is actually desirable now thanks to the rules, but not so strong that I'm willing to sacrifice 380 points before we even include a mandatory HQ.

Edited October 8, 2020 by Ishagu

[_Valten_]

I like it; although I'd be tempted to drop some Intercessors and add in a Chief Apothecary with selfless healer.  That -1 to hit with the 5++ would be doubly troublesome if the Apothecary then just brings back one of those Gravis models for free plus you also get a 6+++ from just having a Apothecary around.

[Ishagu]

Yes, an Apothecary is definitely possible. I can drop the Victrix and a few of the Intercessor upgrades.

 

Could bubble 10 Gravis models around him, and resurrect models as they are taken down.

[Swordsman]

I think a squad of hevy intercessor will largely benefit from Chief Apothecary and even chapter master reroll.

 

This combined with the gravis dedicated stratagem gives us 10x3 wounds, that save at 2+ (1+ in cover), can have 5++ via Psychic Fortress, -1 to hit if Tigurius is nearby, have 6+++ fnp and can be resurrected.

 

A true stronghold that meanwhile unleashes an overwhelming torrent of bolt fire. For the weapons loadout both the rapid fire and assault varian can be very effective.

 

I think a full unit will be almost a constant in my lists.

[Charybdis]

That list is lethal.

 

Do you think you have enough mobility though? With that much firepower I imagine you'll rinse the more killy secondaries, but getting the primary started early has been a game changer in many of the games I've seen. A trend I've noticed of late in battle reports is of armies having been virtually tabled but still winning convincingly enough purely because their opponent despite being stronger, wasn't able to claim objectives and accrue primary points early enough. 

 

I know we have the option to deep strike but apart from the CP drain I imagine a savvy opponent will see the fire power waiting in the wings and screen accordingly. 

 

That much Gravis will be devastating and the Repulsor will offer some transport, but I'm not sure it allows enough flexibility and speed to play the mission.

 

A very good list though, I would be very interested to hear what your thoughts are after seeing it in action. 

[Ishagu]

Yeah mobility is always a concern, but I think this can work by owning the midfield

 

Harlequins are currently the meta defying army that can absolutely own the objectives, run around the opponent and come out on top. It shows that speed is still a virtue.

 

Ultramarines aren't the fastest chapter, but this list tries to play to the strengths they provide.

 

The idea is to deploy aggressively, and if you end up going second you can shuffle some units around. The same can be true in reverse with an opponent who is equally aggressive and you might want to be more cagey in case you don't get the 1st turn.

 

A lot of these units would be concerned with being locked up if they were caught in the midfield but at least Ultras can run and shoot.

[Kyoujin]

I'd like to point out that Astartes grenade launchers are now a proper special (or whatever they call them this edition) weapon rather than an ability that grants extra grenade range.  So you can put two in a 10-man squad and use both without having to first split the unit.  Unfortunately they are not a combi-weapon...yet.

[Prot]

I am fielding a somewhat similar list tonight.

 

I really hoped not to be back to a core of Aggressors, but here we are again.... This time, as I've mentioned previously, I'm doing flamer Aggressors. 

 

Have fun trying the new stuff out. Very curious how you like it. I'm pretty much sticking to WYSIWYG but I get it. The only thing I can't do anymore is the Repulsor. I feel the hit the entire Repulsor line too hard. (I stare at my Executioners in bewilderment at what GW did to them.)

 

Let us know how it goes! (Particularly curious about those Heavy Intercessors.)

[Karhedron]

I feel sorry for the Executioner and relieved I never got around to getting one. The standards Repulsor never flew so high so didn't get nerfed as hard in comparison.

 

It's surprising how compact a 2000 points Astartes army looks now. Do you have secondaries in mind with that list or will you choose them based on your opponent?

 

A Chief Apothecary with 2 heals and one guaranteed Res per turn looks pretty promising although obviously better value on Gravis than Intercessors. At 100 points it is not too hard to see him making his points back in the right build. I am looking forward to running my Blood Angels one again as I feel the jump pack offers a lot in terms of mobility.

[Ishagu]

I think the regular Repulsor has a place thanks to the psychic support making it more durable, and it has good range on many of it's weapons... but perhaps I'm being too optimistic.

 

I enjoy having a variety of toughness in the army, so there is value in having units that some models will struggle to engage with.

Edited October 9, 2020 by Ishagu

[MegaVolt87]

Ha you are literally marching for Macragge with limited transports I love it. Have you thought about inceptors instead of agressors for some more mobility?

[Ishagu]

Ha you are literally marching for Macragge with limited transports I love it. Have you thought about inceptors instead of agressors for some more mobility?

Yeah definitely, but I like the CC threat.

 

I keep the Aggressors behind some of the other troops, and use them to make the opponent question a charge into the units as they can respond the following turn.

 

Also I like the idea of keeping multiple Gravis units within bubbles that bolster their durability.

[Prot]

So how did it go Ishagu? 

[Ishagu]

I only had a game with the new codex last night, and a few things about the list were different but it went very well.

 

I used a FW Contemptor instead of the Goliath as the model is yet to be released.

I also used a big squad of Intercessors instead of the Heavy Intercessors.

 

I assumed the Relic Contemptor would have the core keyword so that's how we played it. The new FW index isn't out yet and this could be wrong, obviously. It did mean Tiggy could increase it's toughness to 8, but we also didn't give it the rule to reduce damage by 1 as that isn't on the datasheet.

 

Playing the game really made me realise how the value of really long range weapons has diminished. I think 24" is good, especially with Marines. Makes me think that Tau could have a redesign as a stealthy, mobility based army. We can all hope...

 

Anyways, back to the game:

 

I really think that Ultras are made significantly stronger using rules in the new codex. I say this because we have inherited, in a round about way, some traits that were native to the Iron Hands or Salamanders - namely increased durability.

 

The Apothecary is the absolute real deal, and Tigurius is now a top choice for the army.

 

The list is a core of characters and tough infantry units and vehicles, and Intercessors that fan out for objectives. I was playing against AdMech.

 

On turn 1 the armies advanced, and there was minimal shooting due to the terrain we had. The Repulsor is a lot slower now that it can't jump over terrain. The smoke Strat is invaluable however, and saved it from taking more damage. Tigurius conferred a 5++ save to basically all units around him. I would say this might be an overall buff despite losing fly. The unit is weaker, but has created synergies with new rules and strats.

 

The AdMech player went first, and was able sit on multiple objectives and pulled away in the early two turns.

 

Once the Ultras were in the midfield the durability and firepower really started to show. T8 vehicles with invuls, T5 infantry with invuls, - 1 to hit on core units that were in danger.

 

I took little damage from Kastellan Robot shootings, and Kataphron Destroyers whiffed, but once I was positioned in the centre the game belonged to the Astartes.

 

5 Eradicators targeting a vehicle is great. Basically guarantees the removal of a unit.

For the record a Repulsor with - 1 to hit and a 5++ is rock solid. 5 Eradicators would only manage 5-7 wounds off it in a turn (more if they are really buffed with auras and strats) , to give an idea of a strong unit that we'll be seeing a lot of.

 

So basically the army felt a lot more durable thanks to terrain and the new abilities from the Apothecary and Librarian. Bringing a model back is good, it didn't make a massive difference in this particular game.

 

We finished it on turn 3 because we knew that Astartes would pull ahead. I really want to use Guilliman or Calgar, but they simply can't fit into these smaller 9th edition armies.

As far as the Ultras go - There are nice combos with units that no longer involve re-roll auras.

 

For the record I'm not saying that the AdMech couldn't win this game - they absolutely could. It would have required different deployment and a more cagey play style, however.

Edited October 13, 2020 by Ishagu

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Tigurius has always been an auto take.

[Prot]

Good observations. I agree on the HQs I’m simply taking Calgar because I love him and the model. 
 

Good use of the smoke strat. 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Calgar is an epic beast.

[Ishagu]

What makes you say that?

 

Calgar is overpriced and underpowered. A generic Gravis Chapter Master can have toughness 6, 8 wounds, a 2+ save and better damage in melee with the power fist that deals flat 2 damage, and would cost 60 points less.

 

Calgar needs a big point drop, or a boost to his rules. If the Gauntlets were flat 3 Damage, as an example, then a case can be made for him being very expensive but very powerful.

 

If you compare him to Azrael of the Dark Angels, who has far better rules and costs only 175 points, you realise how badly costed Calgar is.

Edited October 14, 2020 by Ishagu

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I don’t think the 5” movement is a big deal he can alway advance if needed. His buffs are really good, he has solid reslience especially when paired with Victrix HG. It’d be nice if his melee was flat damage but he is high S low AP and has a lot of attacks. The free CP is the cherry on top. Edited October 14, 2020 by Black Blow Fly

[Ishagu]

Yes but I can get all those things for cheaper, often better, with a generic character. The CP bonus is not worth the cost.

 

Let's look at another CM:

 

Azrael is 175 points:

-Same Aura

-Same CP bonus

-Better weapon

-Can only be wounded on a 4+

-Gives core units around him a 4++ (this is amazing)

 

 

Calgar is not a competitive choice. It's unfortunate but true. His points should be dropped or his weapons need to be improved.

 

I imagine they will be in the next supplement update, but it could be a while before it's released.

Edited October 14, 2020 by Ishagu

[Prot]

Let me be honest... I still use Calgar, just not as much. As it stands he is much more suitable to certain types of Ulra lists, and some not so much.

 

In my current list with blobs of slow moving infantry, he's fine. He rarely does see direct action though, but I actually prefer the Invictus guard over Bladeguard for this reason. 

 

At the same time the less popular reason is no one is going to just waltz in and slap Tigurius around, or they will end up talking into the Mic if you know what I mean. ;)

[Kallas]

Yes but I can get all those things for cheaper, often better, with a generic character. The CP bonus is not worth the cost.

 

Calgar is not a competitive choice. It's unfortunate but true. His points should be dropped or his weapons need to be improved.

 

By your previously established metric (a generic Gravis CM at 60pts less) Calgar's giving 2CP for 30pts and is harder to kill (half damage vs T6).

 

While I agree that 200pts is likely a little too much, I think he's still worth probably about 180ish.

 

Azrael is 175 points:

-Same Aura

-Same CP bonus

-Better weapon

-Can only be wounded on a 4+

-Gives core units around him a 4++ (this is amazing)

 

Azrael certainly got a lot better, though worth noting that his Invulnerable save aura is only Core Infantry or Biker, not just Core (though to be fair, that does cover a lot of units, it's not all: eg, Dreadnoughts).

 

Honestly, 175pts is probably too cheap for what Azrael brings: it's not that Calgar is massively overcosted, but 175pts for:

1. Permanent Transhuman Physiology
2. 4++ Invuln aura
3. A Deny The Witch 
4. A double Master-crafted Combi-Plasma, and
5. 2CP bonus

That's a lot for 175pts.

 

Personally, if Calgar and Azrael switched costs, that'd be much more reasonable.

[Ishagu]

I don't want Calgar to be cheap. I want his relic Power Fists to be better than regular Power Fists, at the least lol.

 

I would say he's worth 170 points at most, but if Azrael is going to stay at 175 then comparatively he's worth 100-105.

 

I think unique characters should have a good value as they are ultimately a part of a faction's perks. One chapter might have incredible psychic powers in their disciple, or a super-competitive tactics and doctrine combination, another can have access to heroes with unique rules and abilities. This can all be balanced, ultimately.

 

Currently it's not. And keep in mind that all these chapters are sub factions of the same codex.

Edited October 14, 2020 by Ishagu

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I can’t wait until Calgar clocks in at 100 points.

[WrathOfTheLion]

At least Calgar isn't as short as a watcher.

 

I think he needs some better deployment, I would like to see some of the Primaris get access to teleport strike. In general, I would like to see characters get better rules, not have their price continually dropped.