Thoughts on new tactical marines compared to intercessors?

[XeonDragon]

Given that tactical marines are going to 2 wounds each, and their cost is known (18 points), I think the role of tactical marines vs intercessors is now really interesting.

 

I ran some math hammer comparisons between different unit configurations, and the results are interesting. I ran the formations against GEQ, MEQ, TEQ and GREQ (gravis equivalent) profiles, then average of the actual damage inflicted (effectiveness measure) against that bundle of targets and converted to a points per point of actual damage inflicted (efficiency measures).

 

The following are based on a 5-man unit being in tactical doctrine, not having moved and, if applicable, the target being in rapid fire range. Base cost of 5 man squad of intercessors is 100 points, 102 if you add an auxiliary grenade launcher:

• Assault intercessors do an average of 2.8 points of damage at 35.1 points per point of damage inflicted. If you throw in an auxiliary grenade launcher and have it fire a krak grenade it becomes 2.8 points of damage at 36.4 points per point of damage inflicted.
• Bolt rifle intercessors do an average of 2.5 points of damage at 40.8 points per point of damage inflicted.  If you throw in an auxiliary grenade launcher and have it fire a krak grenade it becomes 2.4 points of damage at 43.0 points per point of damage inflicted.
• Stalker rifles do the same. However in devastator doctrine they do 2.8 wounds at 35.4 points per point of damage inflicted, or when firing a krak grenade from the launcher 2.8 at 36.6 points per point of damage inflicted.

So from the above, against that bundle of targets, the most effective squad is the assault bolters. The grenade launcher makes little difference. That formation is also the most efficient.

 

Where it gets interesting is taking a similarly priced tactical squad. A 5 man tactical squad is 90 points. A storm bolter is 3 points, whilst both the heavy bolter and grav cannon and amp are 10 points. This means a tactical squad with the sergeant having a storm bolter and one marine with a 10-point heavy weapon costs 103 points, or 1 point more than intercessors with the auxiliary grenade launcher. My results are:

• A 5-man tactical squad (sergeant with storm bolter) and a heavy bolter in tactical doctrine does 3.6 points of damage at 28.3 points per point of damage inflicted.
• A 5-man tactical squad (sergeant with storm bolter) and a grav cannon and amp in tactical doctrine does 4.6 points of damage at 22.3 points per point of damage inflicted.

So from this, there is a clear win to the 5-man tactical squad with storm bolter and grav cannon and amp, followed by a 5-man tactical squad with storm bolter and heavy bolter, followed by a plain 5-man assault bolter equipped intercessor squad.

 

Of course, the numbers only tell part of the story. Other factors to consider include (but are not limited to):

• Shorter range of the tactical marines normal bolters and therefore shorter rapid fire range
• Stability of output from assault bolter intercessors (always 3 shots)
• The firepower of the tactical squad will decline slower, as the storm bolter and heavy weapon output can be preserved by removing normal tactical marine casualties first
• Moving the tactical marines will have a greater impact on damage output (-1 to hit with the heavy weapon) than intercessors. Assault bolter intercessors can be even more mobile (advance and shot at -1) if needed).
• Intercessors have extra attacks over tactical marines.
• Smaller table sizes. Greater availability of transports for tactical marines. More stratagems for intercessors.

What do you all think? Are tactical marines viable now? Will you field them, and if so, how do you think they would best be used?

 

I think I’m going to run some tactical squads and use Raven Guard shenanigans to get them onto central objectives early and sit on them, and see how they go (in practice) compared to intercessors or infiltrators.

 

[Karhedron]

I think 2 wounds has gone a long way to level the playing field. For me, a lot of it boils down to transports. Rhinos, Pods and Razorbacks are more points-efficient than any Transport options in the Primaris line (particularly now that Primaris vehicles have lost FLY).

 

Broadly speaking I am planning to use Firstborn when I need mechanised units and Primaris for foot-slogging roles. I will reserve the expensive Primaris Transports for units that really need them like Bladeguard.

[Dracos]

They killed the “Whispercutter” so any thoughts I had buying a couple Impulsors has died on the vine.

[Captain Idaho]

The 2 wound squad with special and heavy weapons (remember a 5 man squad gets a combi weapon on the Sergeant so you can easily run double plasma for example) makes for a great way of utilising points efficiently. You need Troops in Battalions thus you'll be spending points there anyway, so filling out on weapons platforms to assist the rest of the army goes a long way.

 

As an example, you might have a Dreadnought with Twin Lascannons and a Missile launcher, Devastator squad with Lascannons and 2 Gladiators with Lastalons. That's 10 Lascannon shots, seemingly a lot. However, taking out 1 vehicle drops the anti-tank by a significant amount. With 2-3 Lascannons in Tactical squads, holding objectives, you have additional weapons which is always good, but also gives flexibility to take other points with the points you've spent since you've shored up Lascannon numbers in the Troops slots.

 

They're great and as said, coming out of a Rhino can be mobile for cheaper.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

I think both Idaho and Karhedron both bring up important factors when comparing the two units. I think in most cases tacticals are the better choice, where Intercessors have an advantage is as a footslogging unit that plans on fighting for the middle objectives.

 

Idaho's strategy is based around shoring up weak spots which I think is how most people will try to approach them. That said I would suggest avoiding a mono build have loadouts for your home objective campers, your midfield units, and the units you plan to run in transports (which as Karhedron pointed out is a strength).

 

Personally I'll stick with Intercessors but it has more to do with how my army looks and I was already leaning towards footslogging before they nerfed impulsors again.

[XeonDragon]

Great points everyone, food for thought. I think that given grav guns are 30" range now, I can see a heap of merit in parking tacticals on mid-board objectives on smaller tables. Good flexible threat-range. Not great in melee for sure, but I think for shooting armies they might be worth it. For example, Dark Angels with their +1 to hit or maybe even Raven Guard with +1 to hit and wound vs characters in tactical doctrine could make a SB+Grav or SB+HB tactical squad a mini-nightmare to deal with. I can also see what Idaho is saying - which the guys at TableTop Titans were also taking about recently - in that moving tacticals up with Rhinos or Razorbacks (or even a drop pod) and parking the vehicles and tactical marines on objectives early would be hard to deal with, and more feasible (points wise) than using primaris transport options to do the same.

 

I also think the idea of sprinkling las cannons or missile launchers into tactical squads is great way of creating a good (and diffused!) anti-tank and monster threat across the board. Still, melee would remain a weak point.  

 

I think for a straight up 100-point comparison, I'd be leaning slightly towards tacticals with grav gun over assault-bolter intercessors, but would depend on how much melee I might be expecting. I think for the next few games I am going to run 50/50 assault intercessors and tactical squads with grav guns, and see how they go :D

[Volt]

Forget ten man squads, take razorbacks and MSU's to fill up troop slots for a battalion and focus just on special weapons. Either MSU's with plas/combi or flamer/combi depending on the nature of the game to hop on objectives while the razorback supplies all of the AV fire you'll need. You get lots of lascannons on the cheap while not having a heavy weapon that limits your aggression with the MSU tac squads. Bonus points because the tac squads as MSU's never worry about blast.

[Karhedron]

I have gone the other way round with my Space Wolves and put Assault Cannons on the RBs and gone melta/combi-melta/power fist on the Grey Hunters inside. However I completely agree with your philosophy of MSU with units of complimentary capabilities working together.

 

For non-Wolves, I do agree that Grav Cannon looks like a good all-rounder for MSU tactical squads and matches range of the bolters nicely. Combi-weapon to taste on the Serg and away you go.

Edited October 12, 2020 by Karhedron

[Doghouse]

I think the older marines have much better transport options.

[Greywing]

I ran the formations against GEQ, MEQ, TEQ and GREQ (gravis equivalent) profiles, then average of the actual damage inflicted (effectiveness measure) against that bundle of targets

 

I'm not sure that's an entirely useful metric. Weapon performance against GEQ is fundamentally different from performance against power armor and I just don't see what a blended number like that actually tells us.

[Captain Idaho]

I certainly don't think we can continue to use MEQ anymore. Having 2 wounds means a T4 3+ model is no longer the equivalent.

 

From my recent game of the new Codex (day of release baby) my experience matched the theory crafting. The 2 wounds a piece situation, as well as weapons changes, all affected the Firstborn whilst having little to no bearing on Primaris.

 

Grey Hunters were more dangerous to my army due to their weapons and staying power, heavy bolters and Grav Cannons were more dangerous to my opponent due to D2.

 

It's an interesting development.

 

That's not to say there wasn't any reason to take Primaris. Far from it, my friend did and had a blast, winning the game. (I'm great fun to play against!) But there was definitely a strong call to utilise those weapons from the Tactical squads.

Edited October 13, 2020 by Captain Idaho

[Kallas]

I certainly don't think we can continue to use MEQ anymore. Having 2 wounds means a T4 3+ model is no longer the equivalent.

 

MEQ is still a useable term, it just no longer needs to separated out into Firstborn and Primaris, which used to be MEQ and PEQ.

[StraightSilver]

I've only had a quick flick through the new Codex (it only arrived last night from GW) but I was worried about Firstborn and specifically Tactical Marines.

I was pleasantly surprised and although I am very sad they lost access to Transhuman Physiology the 2 wounds with no points increase is fantastic. 

My only concern is that with the advent of new Codexes we see a swathe of D2 weapons which will then make this redundant, lol.

The standout for me is the ability for all marines to be able to perform an action and still shoot by using a stratagem which suddenly makes the cheaper, Tactical squad suddenly more flexible in terms of secondary objectives. 

[Karhedron]

There probably will be more weapons promoted to D2 but I am not unduly worried. Heavy bolters got a price hike for the boost and are no longer such a cheap option as they once were. Plus the vast majority of small arms fire and melee weapons are still 1D so even a few boost around the place won't invalidate the 2W.

[Mandragola]

I think the "shoot and perform an action" strat is a nice buff, but more for units with a bit more firepower. Dropping inceptors in the enemy deployment zone to do an action there, for example. Losing the shooting for a tactical squad isn't really a big deal in my opinion. It's certainly a nice option to have though.

[StraightSilver]

I think the "shoot and perform an action" strat is a nice buff, but more for units with a bit more firepower. Dropping inceptors in the enemy deployment zone to do an action there, for example. Losing the shooting for a tactical squad isn't really a big deal in my opinion. It's certainly a nice option to have though.

For me it's important as I run a pure Firstborn army (no Primaris units) and losing Scouts to elites left me with no troops that could hold objectives.... 

[Mandragola]

 

I think the "shoot and perform an action" strat is a nice buff, but more for units with a bit more firepower. Dropping inceptors in the enemy deployment zone to do an action there, for example. Losing the shooting for a tactical squad isn't really a big deal in my opinion. It's certainly a nice option to have though.

For me it's important as I run a pure Firstborn army (no Primaris units) and losing Scouts to elites left me with no troops that could hold objectives.... 

Fair enough. My point is really that the value of the strat is equal to the value of the shooting you get from the unit. With Firstborn I'd probably be using it on something like a devastator squad coming out of a drop pod. It's not really the end of the world to lose a tactical squad's shooting while it raises a banner or something.

[XeonDragon]

Agreed. I should have specified that when I use 'MEQ' I always base it on 2-wounds, I know some people and bloggers use wounds, some use models destroyed, heck some even use just hits when doing mathhammer... but for me the metric I use is actual points of damage caused. 

 

 

 

 

I certainly don't think we can continue to use MEQ anymore. Having 2 wounds means a T4 3+ model is no longer the equivalent.

 

MEQ is still a useable term, it just no longer needs to separated out into Firstborn and Primaris, which used to be MEQ and PEQ.

 

[Thoridon]

Tacticals are still going to be worth it on a situational basis, I feel. A bare unit without any upgrades is going to be quite a bit inferior to the variety of Primaris troops in terms of damage output but could still fill a role if you want a unit purely for mission actions as cheap as possible without intending to use CP on the shooting strat along with it.

 

The Grav Cannon is the big winner for Tactical squads as it has extremely good points efficiency across a broad selection of target profiles given the points reduction compare to 8th. A 5-man squad with one of those and a combi on the sergeant can still do some nice work, though the remaining bolters are essentially adding token shots at this point compared to other units. The combi doesn't really have a stand out option with the new prices. The grav gun is 2/3 the price of the cannon but much lower than 2/3 damage output. Plasma looks the best on paper but really needs to utilise overcharge against many targets which risks blowing the sergeant up. The storm bolter is the most points efficient against T3 infantry but loses a lot of effectiveness once you're shooting anything T4 or higher with some armour. Overall I think Grav Cannon and Combi-Plasma is the most versatile setup, just being careful with the overcharge. I think the biggest issue here is not the grav cannon itself but the lack of a combi-weapon that is anywhere close to it for points efficiency at a similar range.

 

Another option that could be useful is Multi-Melta with a Combi-Melta sergeant. If you know you'll be facing a bunch of big toys you could get some nice damage in if you can get this squad within 12", sort of like a cheap/light Devastator squad.

 

Intercessors with the auto bolt rifles seem like the ideal mid-table objective units to me. 3 shots regardless of range/movement makes them simple to use and then as a Blood Angel player they can be very nice on the charge once assault doctrine kicks in. The other 2 variants don't appeal to me as much - the regular bolt rifle isn't any better than the auto version even when standing still while the stalker trades a bunch of anti-infantry efficiency for a slightly higher change of damaging big stuff (which still isn't a high chance being S4). I could see more shooty factions leaning to the stalker, though, for camping on objectives further back.

 

So yeah... Intercessors (especially the auto variant) are the easiest go-to for all round use but I do see a place for Tacticals with certain weapon options for different roles.

Edited October 14, 2020 by Thoridon

[Captain Idaho]

 

I certainly don't think we can continue to use MEQ anymore. Having 2 wounds means a T4 3+ model is no longer the equivalent.

 

 

MEQ is still a useable term, it just no longer needs to separated out into Firstborn and Primaris, which used to be MEQ and PEQ.

It's a term that doesn't need to exist. How many models out there fit into the Marine Equivalent position, that aren't actually Marines?

 

Just say Marines.

 

MEQ used to be a catch all term for models that have similar stats, but how many models share similar stats now. I just think it's outdated and gives the impression to people who may not be as experienced that there are a whole host of options out there for models like Marines.

[Mandragola]

 

 

I certainly don't think we can continue to use MEQ anymore. Having 2 wounds means a T4 3+ model is no longer the equivalent.

 

MEQ is still a useable term, it just no longer needs to separated out into Firstborn and Primaris, which used to be MEQ and PEQ.

It's a term that doesn't need to exist. How many models out there fit into the Marine Equivalent position, that aren't actually Marines?

 

Just say Marines.

 

MEQ used to be a catch all term for models that have similar stats, but how many models share similar stats now. I just think it's outdated and gives the impression to people who may not be as experienced that there are a whole host of options out there for models like Marines.

True. Back when people started talking about MEQ there were a lot of marines with identical stats, and also things like necron warriors with (I think) the same T4 3+ profile. Nowadays it's pretty different because even marine armies now contain models with all sorts of different stat lines (gravis, bladeguard etc.). There isn't really a "right" weapon to take against marines any more, in the way that there used to be. 

[Debauchery101]

Best bang for the buck to have decent firepower, objective holding and counter charging will be intercessors especially due to strats like THP and Rapid fire.

 

Tactical Marines are great too. A couple squads with multimeltas in razorbacks with multimeltas which have smokescreen make them a great. Its like 200 points for 5 marines and razorback.

 

 

I also think Incursors should thrown into the same category for comparison. The haywire mine now is great. I like the tweak to melee. They are a great unit to make pushes with. If you can toss a chaplain buff for +1 to wound they become a great threat to armies like harlequins and deathguard who are always getting cover saves and giving negative modifiers to hit.

 

If you like to use more strats/cp i think taking tactical Marines and other firstborn is a great way to balance burning a lot of cp because you can pay points to kit them out so they don't need to use CP

Edited October 15, 2020 by Debauchery101

[Medicinal Carrots]

Tacticals with a grav-cannon are moderately better (~20-25%) against Marines and other multi-wound units, even when taking the melee difference into account. Intercessors with auto bolt rifles are a little better (~10-15%) against 1W T4, like Necron Warriors. Intercessors are moderately to significantly better (~30-35% vs guard, ~50% vs harlies) against 1W T3 units.

 

Given that and the available stratagems, I think Intercessors are the better choice for a general purpose footslogging troop unit. If you have a different plan for them (like ranged tank hunting, or riding a transport), or chapter tactic synergy (like possibly Salamanders with flamers), then Tacticals may be a good choice for that specific role.

 

(Lost my typed math twice when the browser on my phone refreshed randomly while switching back the calculator, so the % differences listed above are rough ones based on me remembering approximate totals, e.g. Intercessors kill 5.5ish guard and Tacticals kill 4.something shooting, with melee being a bit bigger a difference. Take with a bit of salt.)

Edited October 16, 2020 by Medicinal Carrots

[leth]

Have not had a chance to play yet,  yet in all my theory crafting I take a mix of both, because both fill different roles. Tacticals with their special weapons have the ability to engage more targets and take advantage of different strategies like sky fire and hellfire rounds. They can also take one off pieces of wargear that make them more versatile and jack of all trades. 
 

intercessors are there to engage a very specific type of unit and fulfill that specific role. 
 

I also have to actor in that until we see an eradicator nerf, I won’t run more than 2 vehicles to make it so my opponent doesn’t get a free 15 points on the secondaries.

 

I think this will also change with the introduction of heavy intercessors into the equation. Their increase range changes how we control the board on different missions.  

Edited October 16, 2020 by leth

[Captain Idaho]

Thing is, you don't have to fire ALL THE Tactical squad at the Guardsmen. That's their big advantage. If you have a Missile Launcher or Lascannon, or even Heavy Bolter taking advantage of Hellfire Shells or Grav Cannons can work, you fire those at the tanks and bolter fire at other targets.

 

Sure, you'll kill less Guardsmen on average than an Intercessor squad, but only a few less, whilst also pulling anti-tank and elites into the bargain.

Edited October 16, 2020 by Captain Idaho