Devastator Centurions in 9th

[L30n1d4s]

Well, undoubtedly Devastator Centurions have been nerfed with the new Space Marine Codex, and probably deservedly so, with how powerful they have been in the past. Specifically, in the new Codex, they:

 

 

1 - Lost access to Transhuman Physiology (since they are not Primaris)

2 - Lost access to the Grav Amp Strat (removed entirely from the SM inventory)

3 - Most importantly, they did NOT gain the "Core" keyword, meaning that they cannot be buffed by the vast majority of Space Marine abilities, including Captain/Lieutenant re-rolls, most Chaplain Litany buffs/auras, most Relics that buff nearby units, etc. etc.

 

 

With all of these nerfs, plus other units (like Eradicators, Devastators, and even the improved Hellblasters) that are highly effective shooting options in the new Space Marine meta, it is easy to assume that Devastator Centurions will go the way of the Dodo in most army lists.

 

 

All that said, Devastator Centurions still maintain certain advantages that give a reason to consider taking them:

 

1 - They are "relentless" Heavy Weapons platforms (i.e. 6 HB shots, 4 Grav Cannon shots, or 2 Lascannon shots each) that can move and not suffer any penalties to their shooting.

2 - They natively ignore cover with their Omniscope Sgt, making them that much more efficient against enemies that have access to Light and/or Dense Cover options.

3 - They can put out significant volume of fire via their Hurricane Bolters on every model, with up to 72 Bolters shots at 12" from a full 6 man squad

4 - Each Centurion is T5, 4W, and has a 2+ save, making them some of the toughest SM units to kill, model for model, outside of certain Character options.

 

 

On top of all this, while not being "Core" restricts a lot of their options, they still benefit from the following abilities in the new Codex:

 

1 - Apothecaries -- With their 6+++ FNP, 4W Centurions can make some of the best use of the newly updated Narthecium rules. Additionally, they get the most mileage of almost any unit (again, Characters excepted) from the Apothecary ability to heal up to 3W per turn and the Strat to bring back a dead model at full wounds (e.g. if your Centurion squad lost two models and had a third down to 1 W, the Apothecary could heal the wounded one back to full health and also resurrect another, thus negating 7W worth of damage that your opponent previously had inflicted).

 

2 - Chapter Tactics -- While some CTs, like the melee oriented ones of White Scars, Blood Angels, Space Wolves, and Black Templars, are not that great for Devastator Centurions (who generally want to avoid combat so they can keep shooting), things like Salamanders CT (ignore AP-1 and re-roll a single Wound each turn), Imperial Fist CTs (Bolter Weapons make an extra hit on unmodified rolls of 6), Ultramarine CTs (fall back from combat and still shoot at -1 BS), and Raven Guard CTs (automatic cover at 18+", -1 to hit when in cover at 12+") all provide significant benefits to the already tough and shooty Centurions.

 

3 - Special Characters -- Most character abilities are restricted to supporting "Core" units, but there are a few that do not have this requirement, including Guilliman (his re-roll everything aura is UM Core only, but he still gives re-rolls of 1s to all Imperium units of any type within 12"), Iron Father Feirros (his 5++ Invul aura and Signum Array both can buff Centurions), Tor Garradon (he has the same Signum Array that can buff Centurions), and Azrael (his 4++ aura is not restricted to "Core" and so can help protect Centurions as well, now that DA have access to them).

 

 

Based on all this and some other options to make Devastator Centurions effective on the 9th edition battlefield, I am considering a couple different ways of running them:

 

I - Dark Angels -- Between Azrael (for the 4++), the Darkshroud Land Speeder (for -1 to hit them), a Chief Apothecary (for the 6+++, healing 3W a turn, and 1 CP resurrecting a model every turn abilities), and the innate DA Chapter Tactic that gives a unit that has not moved +1 to hit (so, effectively, BS2+), I think this may be the new best way to run a 5 man squad of Devastator Centurions. Throw in some solid melee counter-punch units, like Assault Intercessors or Deathwing Knights, and I think you can make a very effective and durable Centurion "fire base" which the rest of your army can use as a foundation for maneuvering and fighting around. Also, Space Marines (and hence, Dark Angels) have a new Strat that allows an Infantry unit to count as not moving... this means that, even if they did move, you can make your DA Devastators get the +1 to Hit from the Dark Angel Chapter Tactics if necessary.

 

II - Iron Hands -- With Iron Father Feirros able to buff both their shooting and defense, the option of the Psysteel Armour psychic power (giving them a 1+ save, or 0+ save if they can get into Light Cover), their native 6+++ FNP from IH Chapter Tactics, a Strat to make all unmodified wound rolls of 6 generate two wounds instead of one, the Super Doctrine that gives all their Heavy Weapons re-rolls of 1s to Hit, the option to keep them in Devastator Doctrine all game long via another IH unique Strat, and a cheap Apothecary to heal and revive them, and I think they can still be pretty potent in the current meta.

 

III - Raven Guard Successors with "Stealthy" and "Bolter Fusillades" Traits -- Since they can stay at 18+" range and get Light Cover (i.e. 1+ save) for free, they can deep strike anywhere on the board via the Strike from the Shadows Strat, and they can gain +1 to Hit and +1 to Wound when shooting against any Characters when their Super Doctrine is "on" (remember, if you can kill all enemy units within 3" of a character, then that character suddenly becomes targetable by normal units), I think RG Successor Centurions definitely have some uses. On top of this, if they are running Heavy Bolters and Hurricane Bolters, then they get to re-roll all their 1s to Hit for free as well, which combines quite well with the RG Successor Deep Strike option, since the Devastator Centurions can operate independently from your main battle line and also get into good positions to try and draw a bead on an enemy Character who does not have a unit of 3 or more models or a vehicle between him and your Centurions to use the "Look out, Sir!" rule. Finally, RG Successor Centurions can use the False Flight Strat to fall back and shoot, even if they do get charged, making them quite dangerous if your opponent can't kill them outright in combat (especially with a nearby Apothecary to heal one and revive another one).

Edited October 10, 2020 by L30n1d4s

[Captain Idaho]

I agree Centurions are not yet done. They have plenty of firepower and can still be boosted depending on the Chapter.

 

As an Ultramarines player, I can confirm Sons of Guilliman and Avenge the Fallen Strategums all grant re-rolls to hit for Centurions still.

 

For Space Marine players in general, Centurions are a unit that presents an interesting challenge to think how best to use. They're not an auto-include but I think still strong in the right list.

 

Special mention must go to Heavy Bolters. Damage 2 now makes even just 3 incredibly dangerous - 18 shots a turn plus the Hurricane Bolters means you'll mulch infantry as before, but now you can be a credible threat to anything else you shot as well.

Edited October 10, 2020 by Captain Idaho
Removed Seal of Oath nonsense - doh!

[mathaius]

I'm thinking about a small (and relatively cheap) firebase with just 3 Dev Centurions (HB and either hurricanes or even CML) + an Apothecary sitting on an objective near your DZ. The Apothecary can heal or do the action monkey while cents shoot. As you said they no longer benefit from rerolls, so you're less compelled to keep a captain near them. This should make them a less obvious target for the enemy, while being quite tough to outright wipe out with incidental fire.

[Minsc]

For me personally I was hard pressed to take D.Centurions over Dreadnaughts in the previous codex. Now with additional nerfs to the Cents and buffs to the Dreads (heck, 3W terminators are a contender as well) I think my Cents will remain on the shelf for the forseeable future.

 

My Assault Centurions are reinvigorated by the changes to flamers however, but thats for a different thread.

[Guest MistaGav]

Don't forget centurions lost the bolter discipline rule as well which lowers their hurricane bolter firepower. The problem I see now is they are one nerf too many and every time I look at them in any possible combination, I can think of many other units which are more points efficient now.

[chapter master 454]

Nerfed hard but by all accounts in reasonable ways. I would say I am disappointed that the Grav-amp is now again just decoration but whatever, the change to being damage 2 vs. anything with a 3+ is at least something (to me, that's a buff on the whole. No more whiffing a 1 on D3 against hard targets).

 

If the old custom traits are still around (I haven't got my codex yet, needing a day to go get one as I ain't ordering it online for delivery) then bolter fusillade is good for their hurricanes, long-range still affects all their weapons (27" is surprisingly useful) and if the proliferation of strength 10 weapons gets out of hand we do still have stalwart I believe. Certainly a lot of nerfs but the new apothecary stuff is a big boon, imo if you are going the apothecary route then you are going to have the chief apothecary come along so you can 0CP revive centurions, far too good.

[Race Bannon]

Look man, HB + HurriB + RG = lead farming.

 

Aww yeah boi :tu:

[TheNewman]

Don't forget centurions lost the bolter discipline rule as well which lowers their hurricane bolter firepower. The problem I see now is they are one nerf too many and every time I look at them in any possible combination, I can think of many other units which are more points efficient now.

I would point out that while losing Stable Platform hurts their output a lot with the Hurricane Bolters, I think there's a compelling argument that the Cyclone Missile Launcher is the better choice anyway now that it's a free side-grade. It has much better stand-off range, it's significantly better at engaging armor and/or elite infantry, and being d3 Blast with a better to-wound means it doesn't lose much ground against hoardy units until they're in your lap, and things have gone wrong at that point anyway.

 

I'm still debating whether the Heavy Bolter upgrade is worth the 15 points. There are a fair few targets where the Grav Cannon falls on it's face, but where it is good one Grav Cannon beats two Heavy Bolters despite being cheaper.

 

Of course all of that comes with the proviso that no matter what argument you can make for or against various Centurion load-outs they're still competing two-to-one against Eradicators. Outside Melta range that's not as one-sided as it sounds (particularly the ML/HB load against anything counting on an invuln save), but it's not great.

[Mandragola]

I think devastator centurions are a really tough sell at the moment. They’re just so many points - each one costs most of the price of a dreadnought.

 

I think I agree with people saying the missiles are now a better option than bolters. These guys are relatively hard to kill at long range. Unfortunately the game really hates static shooty units and you’re not likely to get to use your full range that often. I’m not really sure what role you put these guys into that something else can’t do better.

[9x19 Parabellum]

If we're saying a T5, W3, 3+ Armor save is worth ~25 points (that is to say, Gravis Armor minus the baked in guns that come on those models), I have no idea how a T5, W4, 2+ Armor save can be justified at ~60 (Dev Centurion minus the baked in cost of missiles/hurricane bolters).

 

I agree, I think Devastator Centurions are pretty much DoA due to points.

Edited October 10, 2020 by 9x19 Parabellum

[L30n1d4s]

I think the key here is the Apothecary... for the same CP cost as for other units, being able to resurrect a 4W T5 2+ save model (that also has a lot of shooting) is quite potent. Same goes for being able to heal up to 3W for free each turn, and the Narthecium 6+++ FNP goes further with a 4W model than a 3W model (i.e. more chances that your opponent will come just short of killing the model with his D6 dmg Lascannon, Melta Rifle, etc.).

 

All this doesn't make Centurions invincible, but it does give them a reason to be fielded in certain situations. The more I look at, the more I think fielding them with Azrael in a DA detachment is the way to go...a 4++ Invul and hitting on a 2+ if they didn't move is pretty amazing on anything, but especially on Centurions!

[TheNewman]

If we're saying a T5, W3, 3+ Armor save is worth ~25 points (that is to say, Gravis Armor minus the baked in guns that come on those models), I have no idea how a T5, W4, 2+ Armor save can be justified at ~60 (Dev Centurion minus the baked in cost of missiles/hurricane bolters).

 

I agree, I think Devastator Centurions are pretty much DoA due to points.

And then on the other end the baseline Dreadnought chassis is 90 for T7, W8, 3++ and Duty Eternal. You're getting so much more resilience for that 30 points it's not funny.

Edited October 11, 2020 by TheNewman

[9x19 Parabellum]

I think the key here is the Apothecary... for the same CP cost as for other units, being able to resurrect a 4W T5 2+ save model (that also has a lot of shooting) is quite potent. Same goes for being able to heal up to 3W for free each turn, and the Narthecium 6+++ FNP goes further with a 4W model than a 3W model (i.e. more chances that your opponent will come just short of killing the model with his D6 dmg Lascannon, Melta Rifle, etc.).

 

All this doesn't make Centurions invincible, but it does give them a reason to be fielded in certain situations. The more I look at, the more I think fielding them with Azrael in a DA detachment is the way to go...a 4++ Invul and hitting on a 2+ if they didn't move is pretty amazing on anything, but especially on Centurions!

 

I think the key problem here is how the apothecary works.  They probably should have coded the Stratagem for the Chief Apothecary based on # wounds healed to bring back a model. Ie, 1 or 2 wound models cost 1 CP, 3 or 4 wound models cost 2 CP. Then you could reduce the cost by 1 CP for the Chief Apothecary ability. 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Devcents are still good for Ultramarines .

[WrathOfTheLion]

I could see a castle with Azrael... but the models do not cut it for me. I certainly won't be adding them to my DA force, now that we have access to them. That is an important point to make as well - any Dark Angels players have to make a new investment in them, it's not getting mileage out of models already in the collection.

 

I don't have the codex yet to check points cost, but for the Darkshroud and Azrael, that is ~300 points right there just to add some buffs to the Dev centurions. That sounds quite expensive for something that isn't going to be utilizing the CM rerolls. Deathwing knights are 47 ppm, to add another almost 250 points to the fire base. 550 points is a lot to invest into support for them.

Edited October 15, 2020 by WrathOfTheLion

[crazyterran]

 

If we're saying a T5, W3, 3+ Armor save is worth ~25 points (that is to say, Gravis Armor minus the baked in guns that come on those models), I have no idea how a T5, W4, 2+ Armor save can be justified at ~60 (Dev Centurion minus the baked in cost of missiles/hurricane bolters).

 

I agree, I think Devastator Centurions are pretty much DoA due to points.

And then on the other end the baseline Dreadnought chassis is 90 for T7, W8, 3++ and Duty Eternal. You're getting so much more resilience for that 30 points it's not funny.

 

When did normal dreads get a 3++?

[TheNewman]

They didn't, typos are a thing.