New codex - thoughts on successor traits?

[XeonDragon]

Hey all

 

The guy on Table Top Titans did a breakdown on the various marine chapters. They put Raven Guard as mid-tier. Something they said got me thinking, hence this post. They basically said that the pure RG features 'pulled in different directions'. That is, the +1 save - 1 to hit traits make you want to hide and shoot, but the +1 to hit and wound vs characters in tactical, combined with movement shenanigans leans towards getting in the face of enemies and into melee often and early. They made a comment that they thought that RG successors might be the way to go.

 

So... if you were going to go a RG successor chapter, what tactics would you lean towards? For me, I was thinking a combo of born heroes, duellists/hungry for battle/whirlwind of rage/tactical withdrawal (for melee contests mid-board) or go stealthy/long range marksman, stealth/master artisans or... and this might sound weird but hear me out, bolter fusillades and either rapid assault or hungry for battle (thinking of taking lots of bolter infantry units to clog up bid-board, maybe using 5-model units of bolter interceptors to do hit and run tactics, along with snipers, stalker bolt rifles etc).

 

Love to hear your thoughts and ideas :D  

[Lukoi]

I'm playing RG-S and moved from RG pure, to RG-S with Rapid Assault + Master Artisan, but with the mild nerf to MA in the new codex, I've moved on to Rapid Assault + Bolter Fusilade.

 

The former works great for me as virtually every single weapon in my Army is assault based (barring a couple of rapid fires/pistols on characters), and the Bolter Fusilade, applies to 125 shots per turn for me (so 20+ reroll 1's a turn potentially).  I much prefer maximizing efficiencies, versus the stacking of niche buffs/effects to lean into a particular "one trick," pony personally, but there's alot you can do with the successor traits.

[Dracos]

I saw that video and honestly these guys are okay at what they do but I see very little that impresses me in the same way as the Art of War, and even those guys views are colored by their personal experience. 

 

Caveat: All my thoughts are from a Primaris only army perspective.

 

For reasons I can go into later I think Successors rules are not as attractive as they were in 8th. I think Shrike gives us options that can't be found in any other Primaris model. Agatone's durability is great but Shrike's maneuvering is more important to me. 

 

The key imo is to build your list with a plan for grabbing objectives midfield fast and holding your own with as little investment as possible. In the Circle City team tournament I saw very little effort to make an actual grab for an opponents backfield. There is so little time an the effort required to dislodge an opponent in their own DZ is prohibitive. 

 

With that in mind our Chapter Tactics are a nice bump to protection those token backfield units and allows us to focus more resources on the midfield. Which is where our WL traits, strats, and super-doctrine come into play.

 

It might not be quite as good as an army that pushes everything into midfield (thus TTT mid Tier 1 rating) but like the Ultramarines I believe a good pilot can take their list at least as far as the cookie cutter hot net list of the moment ... and do so without chasing the meta.

[superwill]

Hey Xeon,

I completely agree and even in 8th I felt it was a big drawback for RG. I know there were some players who had good success as pure RG but I found myself always pulled into successors (I was running Lias in a raptors list at the very start before his ~35 point drop shot him to the limelight). I just found that all of ours strongest and unique strats and WLT launched us right up close to the enemy - why would I want to get a benefit for being 12" and in cover? Obviously it depends on your list but my playstyle is definitely more along the lines of having on clear plan and pouring everything into it.

 

The issue I've got now in 9th is that a lot of the top successor traits are nerfed or just less necessary. I used to rotate between Hungry for Battle, Long Range Marksmen and Master Artisans. H4B is much less necessary now that you've got a guaranteed litany available. LRM was mainly to boost 8" flamers into being in range after DS, but now that they're 12" it's unnecessary. MA lost half of its power. Almost makes me want to go back to pure RG except that that got nerfed too... And as much as I love the Shrike model I already didn't really have much use for him back in 8th. With the heavy hit to CMs I really don't see much use for him now.

I'm probably looking at running a combat heavy army so might have to try something like Whirlwind of Rage (6 to hit in melee gives bonus attack) or Duelists (6 to hit in melee auto-wounds). Another option is Born Heroes (any of my units that charged get +1 to  hit) which is good for a rushing army, but sad that it's wasted against characters (generally). If I end up running tonnes of bolters then Bolter Fusillades is okay (reroll 1 with bolt weapons) or I could just stick with H4B for the times I'm not charging within my chappy's aura. My only other thought is stalwart so that I can't be wounded on 2s. Decent enough if you're running almost entirely T4 infantry lists, but I'm still thinking about whether I'll run bikes and planes which would make it a bit of a waste.

It was a hard choice last edition because it felt like there were too many great options. Now it feels like none of the options are particularly appealing IMO!

[XeonDragon]

Hey superwill

 

Thanks for your thoughts. I played a 1,750 point game shortly after writing the post that started this thread. I went bolter fusillades and tactical withdrawal. I was annihilated by my opponent (28-75). He was running necrons. Now, he has been playing since 1992 and I am in my first year of playing, so some other (experienced) dudes said I did well to take out all but one of his characters and, if time had not run out, I may have pulled closer (was starting to get onto the objectives, finally whittle his 20-man warrior blobs down with terminators).

 

Bolter fusillades was definitely worth it for my list (intercessors, aggressors, elminators, terminators). I kept a rough count and it resulted in about another 25-30 hits, 15+ wounds, but didn't note how much actual extra damage it led too (got distracted, lol). Tactical withdrawal saved my teeth-of-terra captain and librarian from dying by allowing them to withdraw and then other nearby units annihilating the attacking unit. 

 

My eradicators didn't do a single point of damage (I used SFTS to get into a tiny gap in the enemy's deployment zone to try and take down his Doomsday ark, did nothing). 

 

So, thinking about the game, even before reading your post, I was leaning towards duellists and either bolter fusillades or born heroes. My thinking was/is similar to yours.... RG are good at shooting / character hunting, melee is weak. I did mathhammer on duellists vs whirlwind of rage on various units and generally duellists is better for smaller units with low-mid amount of attacks and lowish strength/A weapons, i.e. your MSU obsec unit choices where the chance to wound is not great. It is also good because it operates all the time and gets you where you want to be - forcing a saving throw.

 

INMHO whirlwind only creates an opportunity to hit (step 1), then you have to wound (step 2) before you get to where you want to be - forcing a saving throw. In contrast whirlwind is better for units with high attacks, mid to high strength/AP, i.e. where the change of wounding and forcing a saving throw is already high and what matters more is the number of attacks.

 

So I think that duellists and bolter fusillades is a great way of squeezing out more shooting and combat effectiveness, especially out of obsec units. So that is my thinking. I'm going to try that in my next game, and the one after that born heroes and duellists. Fingers crossed they work out like my theoryhammer suggests!  

Edited October 13, 2020 by XeonDragon

[MajorNese]

For Raptors, I'm actually leaning towards using successor rules instead of my previous RG-but-painted-green. Shrike is great, but staying >18" for full bonus makes him harder to use, and our sniper character options are constantly expanding.

 

In my case - Bolter Fusillades and Stealthy should work. Stay at range, and get free across-the-board rerolls for what I usually use to get things done. Especially since captains can't buff themselves (but carry bolter weaponry), all snipers are bolt-based, and static defences like the Manowar Hammerfall-Bunker and Tarantulas bring even more bolters. Inceptors, Heavy Intercessors, normal Intercessors, Incursors, Infiltrators, and so on and so forth - probably two thirds of my list will get free rerolls, without bubbling up.

[Mandragola]

I'm seriously thinking of making a RG army. The idea would be to paint them in camo, with some 30k RG transfers I've got on. So I could use them as true Ravenguard or a successor that used the same badge, as some of their official successors already seem to do.

 

I think the core RG traits are pretty great in 9th. -1 to hit is a very nice bonus and the stealthy part works on vehicles too. Running tanks and land speeders isn't an awful idea if they get cover saves and can pop smoke.

 

I think it'll be a good plan to have a couple of units of heavy intercessors, probably with the rapid fire guns, to park on your back field objectives. These guys will be very tough to remove, relative to their cost, which allows you to spend a lot of points contesting midfield and pushing into the enemy DZ. Or that's the plan, anyway.

[Dracos]

XeonDragon: my advice for doing better versus Necrons is ... do not ... engage the Warriors blobs of 20. Especially if they are using the double ObSec trait. Use your RG WT and Strats to maneuver into position to engage the lower count units and focus on scoring your Objectives and flipping their Objectives. IMO it’s easier to deal with flipping Immortals than twice the amount of Warriors. Except for the C’tan killing Necron characters isn’t any harde than killing Marine Characters. Be careful with the Plasma guy and his entourage. You have to hit them fast from a distance preferably because they’re a pain. I did kill one with my Master of Sanctity lately but really it was a team effort with the Executioners killing the the entourage and the Chappie slapping the Plasma guy down before getting crushed by whatever they’re calling the Doom (War of the World) Walker thing.

 

Best of luck.

[XeonDragon]

Thanks for that. I think  my problem was that I didn't have enough firepower to take a blob down and keep it down in one spot. I was spread to thin, hanging back, waiting to thin things out before snapping the objectives. He moved first and burned CP to get blobs onto objectives turn 1 - he told me at the end his whole plan was to get on them and basically hope his reanimation protocols would keep the units alive and on the objectives long enough to score heaps of points.... which he did.

 

I think if I played the game again, I'd re-position things so that I had two squads of 5 assault intercessors and a squad of 5 aggressors and/or hellblasters to take down a big blob from a position out of LOS from his big bad doomsday arc thing, wipe it out, leave a few surviving intercessors on that objective, move onto the next one closer to the centre of the board etc.

 

Clearly need a heck of a lot of firepower to take down a big blob (bit like tyranids hordes) and keep them down. 

[Alcyon]

Interesting thoughts on successors here. It's my general feeling that across all Codex: Space Marine armies, the Successor traits are now generally weaker than the main CTs, as opposed to in the last codex where Master Artisans and Stealthy or in some cases Long Range Marksmen was showing up on tournament tables regularly. However, those CTs aren't all equal value either, and it's hard to weigh them against each other when all of them come with accompanying relics, super doctrines and warlord traits on top. Then there's also the effects of the meta, unit choice and mission rules on top of that. 

 

If we confine our view to RG successors I agree that we have a lot of combat-focused abilities and that our choice of CT should likely support that... but then again, other chapters do some things better than we do even if we try and tailor our CT choices to favour that. I think Assault Intercessors and Outriders are always going to be better as Flesh Tearers, and BA successors generally have units like Sanguinary Guard that outmatch options in our datasheets. 

 

One thing I think is important to point out is that most of our punchiest units get their buffs from redeployment and the ability to make it into combat. Aggressors/Terminators love MoA and now SftS with a Chaplain using Commanding Oratory to cast Canticle of Hate. VVs have Strike from the Skies. There are also plenty of stratagems and character auras that can buff those units directly. So when I think about CTs, usually what I'm trying to do is figure out what gives me the most value by being spread across my whole army, as opposed to something like Long-Range Marksmen only being used to make 12" flamers as it was in 8th.

 

By far the most popular weapon is bolters and so I agree that Bolter Fusillades is probably a strong choice, with the caveat that you need to make sure your Troops choices are actually getting in range. I've often had my backline objective holders twiddle their thumbs with nothing to shoot at while all the action happens elsewhere, so running this I would want to try Servitors or some other unit to keep my Intercessors within 24" of visible enemies. 

 

I don't love Born Heroes or Whirlwind of Rage mostly because I don't think more than 1/4 of the army is usually going to be charging in most cases and so I think options like that are mostly wasted on the majority of your army. Duellists is in a similar boat because I don't think most of my army should be charging things they have trouble wounding, though I could be totally wrong - it might be that actually the ability to auto-wound really amps up the combat effectiveness of Intercessors etc. vs. other ObSec troops. I'd have to compare it to Born Heroes to see if autowound on 6s is actually better than straight up +1 to hit but I doubt it is.

 

I'm still mostly playing MSU and so I'm actually still tempted to run Master Artisans, though it is a bit of a nonbo with Bolter Fusillades. Most of our units hit on 3s and there are a number of ways to improve that to 2s especially in Crusade, so I think often times one re-roll to hit is all you need. I guess overall my problem is I don't think there's a pairing of two successor tactics that are both at the same power level and don't clash. 

[Dracos]

It's my opinion and I find it wildly ironic that no one leverages Gravis infantry better than Raven Guard. Our ability to surgically insert Aggressors (Bladeguard) and Eradicators, our ability to biff Inceptors (via Shrike) and add durability to long range shooting Heavy Intercessors through Stealth (-1 to be hit) 

[Mandragola]

It's my opinion and I find it wildly ironic that no one leverages Gravis infantry better than Raven Guard. Our ability to surgically insert Aggressors (Bladeguard) and Eradicators, our ability to biff Inceptors (via Shrike) and add durability to long range shooting Heavy Intercessors through Stealth (-1 to be hit) 

Definitely agree. You could easily end up with an all-Gravis RG army, with big fat guys creeping about everywhere. Doesn't make huge amounts of sense! At least we won't be using MoA on Centurions any more, though a unit of 10 sneaky hammernators works fine.

[Dracos]

I love the Gravis armor, I just wish our supplement gave out equipment and had strats that actually made Phobos comparatively as dangerous as Gravis with our maneuver abilities. 

 

They could start by changing the Super Doctrine giving Raven Guard  Phobos units a straight -1 to be hit in the Devestator Doctrine and a straight +1 to wound shooting in the Tactical Doctrine and +1 to wound on the charge in the Assault Doctrine. 

 

In some ways it would weaken what we have now but man it would play more flavorful. It'll never happen as a Super Doctrine ... Firstborn arent as differentiated and we can't leave them behind. 

[Jacques Corbin]

Rapid Assault and Bolter Fusillades as Necropolis Hawks. Just run and gun and clear terrain with sweeping Bolter fire.

[dakkamasta]

For the most part, I think I'll be running my successors as regular RG again. Aside from Bolter Fusillades (which requires a list to be built around), the offensive successor traits are underwhelming aside from a few melee ones. If I were to run successors, the only combo I would run would be Bolter Fusillades/Stealthy. The melee traits don't interest me since I also play Blood Angels and I play my RG successors to be sneaky, not choppy.

 

The RG trait is still solid in my opinion especially in keeping a strong backfield presence. The nerf to the light cover bonus isn't too huge a deal as it means you'll just have to try and use terrain for units the push close to the enemy. The -1 from 12" is pretty good to have now, as you can just throw units onto your backfield objectives in the wide open and they'll have +1 armour and -1 to hit. This allows you to commit less to the backfield and push more units forward.

[Dracos]

I think getting the ability to get a -1 to be hit and a +1 to your armor save are crazy useful so far. I don’t have to worry about what kind or how much terrain to get these protective buffs. It allows me to focus down on the best paths to maneuver my units and score VP as quickly as possible.

 

I have to accept that my a Incursors are going to die because they are the front line. They have to be there just long enough for the Assault Intercessors to “relieve” them and be reinforced by the Bladeguard advancing up the board behind them for the inevitable counter attack. I usually assume my MoA unit is also going to die because Aggressors are going to be a target but that’s okay. It’s going to be costly and it’s shots or attacks that aren’t going into the ObSec units (and if they hold the line for anTurn the Bladeguard are going to be right there for a charge next Turn.

[XeonDragon]

I think the -1 to hit when in terrain is good. Now, it all depends on terrain and where the objectives are, but I think in general that lends itself to sitting back in cover and trying to blow opponent off the table from a distance, when from my experience of 9th so far most games are won by scrambling for the objectives and hanging onto them (melee really important in that regard).

 

I'm going to have a crack with the pure RG traits, and see how it goes compared to bolter/stealthy or bolter/whirlwind. 

[Dracos]

 .... I think in general that lends itself to sitting back in cover and trying to blow opponent off the table from a distance

 

 .... from my experience of 9th so far most games are won by scrambling for the objectives and hanging onto them (melee really important in that regard).

 

I'm going to have a crack with the pure RG traits, and see how it goes compared to bolter/stealthy or bolter/whirlwind. 

 

^This^ is why I say we are an army that has a high skill level compared to some of our Brothers. The pay off is that if we develop a plan that takes advantage of the different levels of moving pieces, it runs like a Ferrari. 

 

Our Chapter Tactics provides as with a slice of defense. Our Super Doctrine provides up with ways to debuff the opposition (or flat out assassinate a melee monster), and most importantly our stratagems give us a touch of all that and real abilities to manuever some of the games most dangerous units into position to nuke said opposition before they have a chance to say "Oh crap!"

 

Which is not to say we cant be countered. A mediocre pilot, or a opponent that understands what we do and how to counter it (Two of my 3 wins with Knights vs Raven Guard in a local tournament as evidence) can do a lot to ruin our Raven Guard engine . . . . 

 

 . . . . and that's when you pull out Plan B ;)

[Alcyon]

I've been running Bolter/Stealthy for a while and lately I haven't found Stealthy useful at all. 18" is so far when so many of the best Primaris weapons have 24" range at most and you need to close to take objectives. It is nice to be able to play ranged units without really thinking about cover too much but it does feel sort of silly. 

[superwill]

I think getting the ability to get a -1 to be hit and a +1 to your armor save are crazy useful so far. I don’t have to worry about what kind or how much terrain to get these protective buffs.

*snip* you can just throw units onto your backfield objectives in the wide open and they'll have +1 armour and -1 to hit. This allows you to commit less to the backfield and push more units forward.

I'm pretty sure it's just a wording thing but just wanted to double check - you guys know that you can't get both benefits, right? (Unless you're standing on a hill or something which counts as a terrain piece but wouldn't usually give you the +1 save). But you can't just be standing in the open and get +1 save and therefore qualify for the -1 to hit. If you're 18" away you count as being in cover, but you do still have to actually be in a terrain piece to get the -1 to hit.

 

Just wanted to check because I know a number of websites that printed it as though they stack with each other in the open.

 

So yeah, dakkamaster you can't throw units into the open and get +1 save and -1 to hit, you'd only get the +1 save.

 

6+FNP is just so much better for a defensive CT - sad times.

Edited October 28, 2020 by superwill

[Alcyon]

I wonder if there is even a way to make cover useful enough that you'd want to build your army around it. -1 to hit is a serious buff and a lot of battlefields have no dense cover otherwise. It kind of just seems like the 9th edition objective focus makes the CT a bad pick because it incentivizes a static gunline.

[Lukoi]

Or it simply doesnt incentivize or mesh well with the need to crash the mid board at the very least.

 

Most chapters get something in their CT that makes them more deadly, more mobile, or more durable. Ours is intended for the latter but with a condition that runs counter to the game's objective of board control.

 

It is kind of a legacy of 8e, an oversight really, imo.

[MajorNese]

Most chapters get something in their CT that makes them more deadly, more mobile, or more durable. Ours is intended for the latter but with a condition that runs counter to the game's objective of board control.

 

It is kind of a legacy of 8e, an oversight really, imo.

Or it was intended for us to get over backfield firebases - if they want to shoot at us, they better get closer, a.k.a. into charge range, where our mobility is key. And it protects our mobile elements from being gunned down after running into the first forward obstacle.

 

Limiting it to >18" compared to 8ed conflicts with the need to secure the midfield, yes. It means our gunline and flanking forces are safer, and if someone wants to take out our midfield guys they can't stay back all the way.

 

Deadly and mobile are done by anything other than CT - warlord traits, psychic powers, strats and so on. Durable is not exactly our strong suit, only durable enough to get into range, from then on mobility has to carry the day. It remains to be seen how good that works, especially with vehicles/monsters shooting into CC now.

[Jacques Corbin]

Well, the way I see how stealthy works, is that it forces the opponent's hand. They HAVE to move closer to shoot at us effectively, or they really have to focus fire units down to a really points inefficient degree. That is how we should think during deployment. How to we counter the opponent's counter-punch?

 

I really like everybody talking about how they will start units in the midfield, then have these other units back them up.

[Lukoi]

I would disagree that it forces anything.

 

They can sit on the mid board collecting primary points while we remain far enough back to reduce their shooting efficiency. By turn 3, you've dug yourself into a hole that is might impossible to recover from.

 

On the notes highlighting our mobility, I'd argue we dont have alot of sexy tools to enhance it after the clash at the mid board has begun, minus the use of our best in class deepstrike.

 

We dont move on the board better than any SM army after turn 1, so I always find it interesting when we heavily refer to the mobility narrative in the RG community.

 

I literally play Rapid Advace as a ST specifically because we lack any highly impactful mobility enhancers outside of the generic SM options, and our pre game stuff.

Edited October 29, 2020 by Lukoi