Welcome to my Tread Talk: Air Defense Tanks

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Now I now that there's a growing consensus in the community that this is not going to be an edition that is particularly friendly to armored vehicles.  However, I'm a tank guy.  And I'm an Iron Hand player with a few tricks to keep my tanks alive and fighting at full capability.  That being said, I am going to be trying out the same tank-heavy army type that I've played since 5th Edition.  I'll let you know how it goes.  In the meantime, I just wanted to get some conversations going about the efficacy of our combat vehicles.

 

I've been a big fan of the Hunter & Stalker since they were introduced.  Built on the Vindicator's reinforced chassis, they're tougher than your normal Rhino.  They're T8 and W11; that T8 in particular is nice since it's the break-point for a lot of anti-tank weapons.  Autocannons move to 5+ to wound; krak missiles, bright lances, and meltas all need a 4+ to wound and since melta is the new hotness for tank-killing (thanks to Eradicators and Invader ATVs), that's not a terrible metric.  Flesh is Weak, Ironstone, Psysteel, and Psychic Fortress are all options to improve durability, and I'll be mentioning those quite a bit as I continue this series.  In this particular case, I believe that a Hunter/Stalker will be a low-priority target for most players unless they have AIRCRAFT in their army, so durability shouldn't be a particular issue in most cases.

 

 

So why, then, would you take either of these tanks?  They possess average mobility, higher-than-average durability...it must be the firepower, right?

 

 

THE HUNTER

 

The Hunter is my favorite of the two, both thematically and visually.  The skyspear missile is deliciously grimdark, guided as it is by the implanted brain of a particularly loyal Chapter serf.  I've also always been a fan of a single knock-out blow rather than "death by a thousand cuts," and the skyspear missile fits that bill -- especially now.

 

The skyspear's statline is basically an extended-range lascannon: 60" S9 AP-3 Dd6.  In a conventional role, this makes a decent backfield "presence" unit.  It can stand off at long range and provide anti-tank/anti-monster fire while helping to cordon off areas of your rear from deep striking and outflanking units.  Need to block LOS from a potential deep strike LZ to your objective-holding Troops?  Plop a nice big tank in the way.  Want to seal off a vulnerable corner and keep those pesky outflankers out of your hair?  Plop a nice big tank in the way.  At the end of the day, however, that's kind of an expensive lascannon.

 

The skyspear's real time to shine though, as you might imagine, is when you have AIRCRAFT to shoot at.  Unfortunately, the Hunter/Stalker's former abilities applied to anything with FLY but that's been toned down to just AIRCRAFT which makes it less useful against things Wave Serpents or Riptides.  However, several shades of Eldar in particular seem likely to continue bringing their excellent fighters and bombers, so our intrepid heroes may still be able to employ their specialties against these xenos.  For the Hunter, this amounts to an extra +2 to hit against AIRCRAFT, for starters.  You're hitting on a 2+ against your standard Supersonic AIRCRAFT, and even with Lightning Reactions dropped on it, that's still our bog-standard 3+ which is by no means shabby.  So great, we're landing hits!  Now let me tell you about damage.  Against AIRCRAFT, the skyspear doesn't just do d6 damage. . . it does d6+6.  Yes, you read that right.  This thing is potentially capable of one-shotting a Crimson Hunter, for example.

 

 

THE STALKER

 

The Stalker's twin icarus autocannons give it a great rate of fire -- six autocannon shots against ground targets.  Given that W2 Astartes are becoming the standard, something that can reach out four feet, wound most Marines on a 3+, and kill one model per unsaved hit is pretty all right in my book.  It's also a passable anti-tank weapon; T8 chassis might give it some trouble, but anything T7 or below like Rhinos, Venoms, or Wave Serpents are going to feel that slap pretty good.

 

So the Stalker is probably overall better as a "slot into any army" model than the Hunter, as the icarus cannons will be generally more useful if your opponent lacks AIRCRAFT.  If they have some, though...oh boy.  Each icarus autocannon gains +1 to hit against AIRCRAFT and fires double the shots at enemy AIRCRAFT (the exact wording being "make 2 hit rolls instead of 1 and 1 to both those hit rolls").  That's 12 shots for those folks playing at home with a potential maximum damage of 24 wounds.  Now, it is less accurate in this role than the Hunter and has a lower AP, but the greater volume of fire means that low swings of the dice will hurt you less.  Combine that factoid with what I said earlier about the autocannons being superior against ground targets than the skyspear missile and I think the Stalker is jus overll

 

 

WHAT WILL I FIELD?

 

I'm going to start with the Stalker.  On paper, it's a better all-rounder and should be a decent-enough Primaris killer (even against Gravis!  The extra damage can be useful for overcoming feel no pain rolls.

 

 

So that's my take on the anti-aircraft tanks of the Space Marines.  I'm looking for earnest discussion of the merits of these tanks on the tabletop, not dismissive statements of "They're terrible, spend the points elsewhere."  I'm going to field them, that kind of talk doesn't help me.

 

Thank you for coming to my Tread Talk.

[9x19 Parabellum]

Bro I'm a huge fan of stalkers and hunters. Especially in last edition when they got down to like 90 pts.  Going up around 30 pts or so I'm not sure it makes as much sense now, especially given the tighter restrictions on what it targets. 

 

At the *very* least I would have thought they could have made the Hunter's bonus damage on anything in the "Flyer" battlefield role OR Vehicles with FLY keyword.  But that's just pissing in the wind as they say.

 

In any event, I think you hit all the additional points that one should consider: moving LOS blocker, deepstrike blocker, rear field objective secure. There's one other thing you missed however that I like to use my hunters/stalkers for and thats as a mortal wound soaker.  1k Sons, Grey Knights et al hate it when I push my big 11 wound tanks forward to soak up their smites and don't care about degrading profiles. 

 

Proof:

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352347-hunters-like-em-even-more-now/?hl=+hunter

Edited October 14, 2020 by 9x19 Parabellum

[Mandragola]

One quite major change is that these things no longer get a penalty for shooting at non-flying targets. This improves the stalker quite a lot as a general purpose shooty tank.

 

I agree with the assessment that the stalker is just better than the hunter. It has double the damage potential and I’m not sure there’s any target the hunter is better against. In my Crimson Fist army that effect is even more dramatic due to legacy of Dorn.

 

I think the true usefulness of these things will be determined by whether your opponent brings a plane. If they do, I’d be pretty confident that my Stalker would shoot it down, if it gets a chance to on turn one. If they don’t bring a plane, it’s a fairly inefficient unit.

 

I think these units are hurt by the new detachment structure. Most people will be trying to take just three HS choices at 2k. Unfortunately I’m not convinced that these things would make it into my top three. But if the meta looks like it contains a lot of planes after all, I’m glad I’ve got a stalker available.