Supplement, Successors, and Special Units

[VIth]

IIRC, the Pack Leader was built-in to the unit and had the same statline as the rest of the pack but an extra attack and an option to take a power sword, power fist, or power axe.  On top of that, you could then add or replace the pack leader with a Wolf Guard Pack Leader who also had an extra attack but an additional point of leadership, on top of even more weapon options (like a combi-weapon and frost weapons in addition to the normal special melee weapons).  So you could have a 5-man pack with a PL, a 5-man pack with a WGPL and no PL, or a 6-man+ pack with both a PL and WGPL.  Just adding that into the mix would be awesome.  A Space Wolves Intercessor squad with six+ marines, two of them with Thunder Hammers or Power Fists, would be very fluffy and good, making them feel a lot more like Grey Hunters of yore.  And just including a Pack Leader rather than a "sergeant" is so fluffy to me: the natural alpha of that group of inductees.

Edited October 23, 2020 by VIth

[jaxom]

Any updates on if Thunderwolf Cavalry have made it to the Ultima successors?

[WrathOfTheLion]

It says the Wolfspear got reinforcements from Fenris, doesn't state anything about the composition of those forces. So open-ended, make of that what you will I guess.

[Bryan Blaire]

I actually don't understand the way GW bothered to do Successor rules anyway, especially for Space Wolves. The Great Companies already act like Successor forces, honestly, there's not a unified marking scheme for the Chapter beyond the Claw/Hunter/Fang one, so you could make a "Successor" and just use the SW rules straight up as a Great Company and no one could tell you No. You can even use the SW named characters as a Counts-As stand in with your own models equipped as such and go from there.

 

Same thing could be done with the BA and DA.

 

The whole situation really doesn't make much sense IMO, unless you are really just hard set on choosing your trait(s).

[WrathOfTheLion]

With the ability to appoint custom officers, any restriction on the successor mechanic would be pointless.

 

BA do not have a unifying fighting style, which is why Flesh Tearers even have their own chapter tactic. Codex-style successor mechanic, uninhibited, is the proper one for them.

 

What they do especially with the DA is make the rules like inner circle/jink good enough that you don't want to lose them by picking custom traits over Inheritors of the Primarch. Which is the proper design choice for it. If they don't want players grabbing random successor tactics with Deathwing Knights, etc., then they need to make the package good.

Edited November 8, 2020 by WrathOfTheLion

[NightHowler]

I actually don't understand the way GW bothered to do Successor rules anyway, especially for Space Wolves. The Great Companies already act like Successor forces, honestly, there's not a unified marking scheme for the Chapter beyond the Claw/Hunter/Fang one, so you could make a "Successor" and just use the SW rules straight up as a Great Company and no one could tell you No. You can even use the SW named characters as a Counts-As stand in with your own models equipped as such and go from there.

Same thing could be done with the BA and DA.

The whole situation really doesn't make much sense IMO, unless you are really just hard set on choosing your trait(s).

I wish I could give this comment more than one like. Easily deserving of 10 likes in my opinion. Completely agree.

[Rune Priest Jbickb]

Any updates on if Thunderwolf Cavalry have made it to the Ultima successors?

 

It does not say specifically, however in the successor chapter rules section they use a Wolfspear Lord on Thunderwolf as the example so in a way yes they have said it but not clearly. Unless I missed something in the fluff section as I have only skimmed that part so far.

[Bulwyf]

Successor chapters can use all units except named characters. We are now just the same as every other Chapter. So yes,  you can take TWC in a successor chapter.

[Kallas]

It does not say specifically, however in the successor chapter rules section they use a Wolfspear Lord on Thunderwolf as the example so in a way yes they have said it but not clearly. Unless I missed something in the fluff section as I have only skimmed that part so far.

 

Huh, that is interesting!

 

I just double checked the SW Supplement (bought it today and...uh...yes, I'm back on board ) and the Ultramarines Supplement - the SW one has new wording and does allow, as Rune Priest Jbickb says, all non-Named Character datasheets to be taken in SW Successor Chapters.

 

For anyone who wants a page reference: Page 42, under the Datasheets header.

 

That's a good spot, and interesting as a possible development for future Supplements (eg, Blood Angels and Dark Angels, who should be coming quite soon.)

[Rune Priest Jbickb]

 

 

It does not say specifically, however in the successor chapter rules section they use a Wolfspear Lord on Thunderwolf as the example so in a way yes they have said it but not clearly. Unless I missed something in the fluff section as I have only skimmed that part so far.

Huh, that is interesting!

 

I just double checked the SW Supplement (bought it today and...uh...yes, I'm back on board ) and the Ultramarines Supplement - the SW one has new wording and does allow, as Rune Priest Jbickb says, all non-Named Character datasheets to be taken in SW Successor Chapters.

 

For anyone who wants a page reference: Page 42, under the Datasheets header.

 

That's a good spot, and interesting as a possible development for future Supplements (eg, Blood Angels and Dark Angels, who should be coming quite soon.)

They can definitely be taken rules wise but the fluff of this is interesting and they seem to have left it open ended

[BadgersinHills]

 

 

It does not say specifically, however in the successor chapter rules section they use a Wolfspear Lord on Thunderwolf as the example so in a way yes they have said it but not clearly. Unless I missed something in the fluff section as I have only skimmed that part so far.

Huh, that is interesting!

 

I just double checked the SW Supplement (bought it today and...uh...yes, I'm back on board ) and the Ultramarines Supplement - the SW one has new wording and does allow, as Rune Priest Jbickb says, all non-Named Character datasheets to be taken in SW Successor Chapters.

 

For anyone who wants a page reference: Page 42, under the Datasheets header.

 

That's a good spot, and interesting as a possible development for future Supplements (eg, Blood Angels and Dark Angels, who should be coming quite soon.)

They can definitely be taken rules wise but the fluff of this is interesting and they seem to have left it open ended

 

 

I would find cool conversions using Gryphchargers or Dracolines from Age of Sigmar for Thunderwolf Cavalry for Space Wolf successors. 

[jaxom]

 

 

 

 

It does not say specifically, however in the successor chapter rules section they use a Wolfspear Lord on Thunderwolf as the example so in a way yes they have said it but not clearly. Unless I missed something in the fluff section as I have only skimmed that part so far.

Huh, that is interesting!

 

I just double checked the SW Supplement (bought it today and...uh...yes, I'm back on board ) and the Ultramarines Supplement - the SW one has new wording and does allow, as Rune Priest Jbickb says, all non-Named Character datasheets to be taken in SW Successor Chapters.

 

For anyone who wants a page reference: Page 42, under the Datasheets header.

 

That's a good spot, and interesting as a possible development for future Supplements (eg, Blood Angels and Dark Angels, who should be coming quite soon.)

They can definitely be taken rules wise but the fluff of this is interesting and they seem to have left it open ended

I would find cool conversions using Gryphchargers or Dracolines from Age of Sigmar for Thunderwolf Cavalry for Space Wolf successors.

Shhhh, don’t tell anyone! : )

[Sun Reaver]

Anyone else a little disappointed that the only successor chapter mentioned was the Wolfspear? I imagine at least a handful more chapters were created during the Ultima Founding and I would have liked to see a bit more diversity. 

 

Why do you think GW took this route? Even the Salamanders got a handful. 

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

I think it has to do with page count, they crammed alot into that supplement.

[sitnam]

 

 

 

It does not say specifically, however in the successor chapter rules section they use a Wolfspear Lord on Thunderwolf as the example so in a way yes they have said it but not clearly. Unless I missed something in the fluff section as I have only skimmed that part so far.

Huh, that is interesting!

 

I just double checked the SW Supplement (bought it today and...uh...yes, I'm back on board ) and the Ultramarines Supplement - the SW one has new wording and does allow, as Rune Priest Jbickb says, all non-Named Character datasheets to be taken in SW Successor Chapters.

 

For anyone who wants a page reference: Page 42, under the Datasheets header.

 

That's a good spot, and interesting as a possible development for future Supplements (eg, Blood Angels and Dark Angels, who should be coming quite soon.)

They can definitely be taken rules wise but the fluff of this is interesting and they seem to have left it open ended

 

 

I would find cool conversions using Gryphchargers or Dracolines from Age of Sigmar for Thunderwolf Cavalry for Space Wolf successors. 

 

I'm not really a big Space Wolf fan, but the idea that them now having successors with different chapter-specific riding beasts is awesome. I understand more conservative SW fans consternations with the change in lore, but options that open up new conversions is great. Almsot makes me want to write up some lore for a non-wolfy, but still druidic/barbaric SW successor

[Wispy]

i think space wolves successors is very cool and creatively freeing. a limitation to the faction that desperately needed to be corrected.

 

some people well go "but lost companies" but i always felt that was a creative dead end for what most people would like to do. 

 

Anyone else a little disappointed that the only successor chapter mentioned was the Wolfspear? I imagine at least a handful more chapters were created during the Ultima Founding and I would have liked to see a bit more diversity. 

 

Why do you think GW took this route? Even the Salamanders got a handful. 

 

i like the implication that  successors are out there (with the one example) but leave it open ended so people can make their own successors and not be contradicted or rail roaded with too much official lore.

Edited November 10, 2020 by Wispy

[WrathOfTheLion]

That development isn't all that interesting for BA or DA - their successors have had that ability since their 2017 8E codices. SW were brought into line with those two in that regards.

 

The real mechanism their successors lacked was chapter command, to be able to promote officers to replace the named characters.

Edited November 10, 2020 by WrathOfTheLion

[Redcomet]

I think it has to do with page count, they crammed alot into that supplement.

Making it 4 pages longer wouldn’t have killed the company. 

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

That's fair an extra 4 pages wouldn't have killed them, but that isn't a corporate mindset.

 

I suspect we'll see some in WD at some point. Plus we'll probably have another marine codex in the next 2 years.

[Dark Shepherd]

Apologies if this came up before but our successors with Whirlwhind of Rage chapter tactic would still benefit from doctrine bonus so we would get double exploding sixes/three hits per six in the assault doctrine?

[Squark]

Apologies if this came up before but our successors with Whirlwhind of Rage chapter tactic would still benefit from doctrine bonus so we would get double exploding sixes/three hits per six in the assault doctrine?

Or an auto-wound and a regular hit if you take Duelists, yes. Unless GW adresses these interactions specifically the way they did by forbidding you from taking Whirlwind of Rage and Duelists together, you can use both.

 

(For the curious. Duelists is better for attacking higher toughness models, Whirlwind of Rage is better for attacking lower toughness).

[Kallas]

(For the curious. Duelists is better for attacking higher toughness models, Whirlwind of Rage is better for attacking lower toughness).

 

Also worth remembering that Duellist only triggers when attacking Infantry/Bikers, so Whirlwind of Rage is more ubiquitous, but both are decent choices.

 

As far as being 'too good', there is some opportunity cost to taking the Successor Tactics, so it's not necessarily overbearing. You lose out on Space Wolves named characters, who are all pretty decent; and you are limited to a single Wolf-specific relic (eg, Armour of Russ). So it should be reasonably balanced - worth keeping an eye on though.

[Dark Shepherd]

 

 

Apologies if this came up before but our successors with Whirlwhind of Rage chapter tactic would still benefit from doctrine bonus so we would get double exploding sixes/three hits per six in the assault doctrine?

Or an auto-wound and a regular hit if you take Duelists, yes. Unless GW adresses these interactions specifically the way they did by forbidding you from taking Whirlwind of Rage and Duelists together, you can use both.

 

(For the curious. Duelists is better for attacking higher toughness models, Whirlwind of Rage is better for attacking lower toughness).

Thanks. If my mathhammer is right then exploding and later double exploding sixes is better than plus one to hit?

Or add plus one to hit on the charge for extra carnage

 

 

Hmmmmm could we have found a niche for Wulfen after all?

Edited November 10, 2020 by Dark Shepherd

[Squark]

 

 

Apologies if this came up before but our successors with Whirlwhind of Rage chapter tactic would still benefit from doctrine bonus so we would get double exploding sixes/three hits per six in the assault doctrine?

Or an auto-wound and a regular hit if you take Duelists, yes. Unless GW adresses these interactions specifically the way they did by forbidding you from taking Whirlwind of Rage and Duelists together, you can use both.

 

(For the curious. Duelists is better for attacking higher toughness models, Whirlwind of Rage is better for attacking lower toughness).

Thanks. If my mathhammer is right then exploding and later double exploding sixes is better than plus one to hit?

Or add plus one to hit on the charge for extra carnage

 

 

Hmmmmm could we have found a niche for Wulfen after all?

 

Hmmm... Could I see your spreadsheet? My tentative work did not suggest as much, but I'm not positive I got the calculation right.

 

EDIT: Upon revising my numbers, I'm actually seeing Whirlwind of Rage and Hunters Unleashed averaging out to be equal in any situation in which Hunters Unleashed actually does something (Whirlwind of Rage is obviously superior if you're already hitting on a 2+)

Edited November 10, 2020 by Squark

[Dark Shepherd]

No spreadsheet but I calculated with Fists/hammers on units not characters which may skew it

 

Exploding sixes are same as plus one to hit on them

 

But exploding sixes trait combined with plus one to hit on the charge essentially works out at 83% hitting instead of 66%. In Assault doctrine as Wulfen would be thats 100% on hammers, 117% on frostclaws

 

Librarius powers offer some nice combos for us, I just have to decide if a Librarian plus 6 Grey Hunters beats Lukas plus 6 Blood Claws

Edited November 10, 2020 by Dark Shepherd