How exactly are chapters founded?

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Obviously the AdMech does their whole process with the prognoids and what not, but how is the founding itself conducted? are brothers brought in from the parent chapter, or another chapter of the same geneseed?

obviously you can't have a whole chapter that's brand new, and has no experience in combat or with even being a space marine, let alone a chapter master...so would the captain of an established chapter's veteran company selected to become the new chapter's chapter master along with a librarian, chaplain, tech marine, and apothacary, and a small contingent of veterans to make up the company captains of the new incoming marines?

[Brother Tyler]

The simple answer is that we don't know. Aside from the fact that the High Lords of Terra decide that there will be a new founding and sufficient gene-seed and equipment is assembled (the gene-seed being pulled from stocks of selected Chapters and the equipment being either built or pulled out of mothballs), there is evidence that a number of methods have been used.

 

The Second Founding, which was exceptional, is the primary example of Chapters being created by being taken wholesale from the existing Legions. The Sons of Medusa were similar in that they were created by taken those members of various Iron Hands Legion Successors who believed in the teachings of the Moirae Schism, which appears to have been a schismatic belief that grew within those that followed the Cult Mechanicus. Unlike the Second Founding where each Chapter was derived from a single Legion (so far as we know ), the Sons of Medusa drew from all of the Iron Hands Legion Successors (except the Red Talons, who executed all of their battle-brothers who followed the beliefs). Granted, they all shared the gene-seed of Ferrus Manus. Up until recently, these were often recommended as the only examples of Chapters being born by being broken off of existing Chapters [or Legions], but recent official lore has shown us at least one other Chapter created in this way (AD-B's wife's Chapter, whose name I can't recall at the moment).

 

Whether or not an existing Chapter provides a core of battle-brothers and officers to lead a new Chapter is a matter for debate. The pure-Primaris Chapters of the Ultima Founding demonstrate that this doesn't have to happen, and if it happened for those new Chapters, it's entirely possible that it happened for [some] Chapters created in the past.

 

Similarly, whether or not an existing Chapter provides a cadre to train a new Chapter (and then return to their parent Chapter) is also a matter for debate. As the Ultima Founding Chapters demonstrate, this doesn't have to happen. Either that or there is at least one Chapter somewhere that knew about the Primaris Adeptus Astartes and didn't reveal the secret until Roboute Guilliman and Cawl formally introduced them. It could be that the Adeptus Mechanicus has methods to indoctrinate the members of the new Chapter with all of the necessary skill sets without the need for an established Chapter - especially if the Adeptus Mechanicus has their own copy (or copies) of the Codex Astartes. Hypnoindoctrination, necro-cognition, programmed servitors, etc. could go a long way towards providing a baseline skill set to a nascent Chapter.

 

Something to consider is all of those Chapters whose lineage is unknown. There are a few, such as the Exorcists, whose unknown lineage makes sense (and we don't need to get into the debate about whether or not the Exorcists were created using the gene-seed of the Grey Knights). If a predecessor (parent) Chapter sent a team of battle-brothers/officers to form the core of a new Chapter, both Chapters should know the lineage of the new Chapter. This assumes, of course, that the cadre and the new Chapter have compatible gene-seed. For an established Chapter to send a cadre to form the core of a new Chapter with incompatible gene-seed, I imagine that all of the battle-brothers and officers sent to the new Chapter would have both of their progenoids removed first so that this invaluable resource wouldn't go to waste.

 

A new Chapter will undergo a period of training before they are considered ready. It's entirely possible that a new Chapter might be created from scratch, its initial officer leadership simply being the most suitable and potent of the new batch of Adeptus Astartes.

 

Ultimately, there is room for multiple processes to have been used over the millennia.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

The simple answer is that we don't know. Aside from the fact that the High Lords of Terra decide that there will be a new founding and sufficient gene-seed and equipment is assembled (the gene-seed being pulled from stocks of selected Chapters and the equipment being either built or pulled out of mothballs), there is evidence that a number of methods have been used.

 

The Second Founding, which was exceptional, is the primary example of Chapters being created by being taken wholesale from the existing Legions. The Sons of Medusa were similar in that they were created by taken those members of various Iron Hands Legion Successors who believed in the teachings of the Moirae Schism, which appears to have been a schismatic belief that grew within those that followed the Cult Mechanicus. Unlike the Second Founding where each Chapter was derived from a single Legion (so far as we know ), the Sons of Medusa drew from all of the Iron Hands Legion Successors (except the Red Talons, who executed all of their battle-brothers who followed the beliefs). Granted, they all shared the gene-seed of Ferrus Manus. Up until recently, these were often recommended as the only examples of Chapters being born by being broken off of existing Chapters [or Legions], but recent official lore has shown us at least one other Chapter created in this way (AD-B's wife's Chapter, whose name I can't recall at the moment).

 

Whether or not an existing Chapter provides a core of battle-brothers and officers to lead a new Chapter is a matter for debate. The pure-Primaris Chapters of the Ultima Founding demonstrate that this doesn't have to happen, and if it happened for those new Chapters, it's entirely possible that it happened for [some] Chapters created in the past.

 

Similarly, whether or not an existing Chapter provides a cadre to train a new Chapter (and then return to their parent Chapter) is also a matter for debate. As the Ultima Founding Chapters demonstrate, this doesn't have to happen. Either that or there is at least one Chapter somewhere that knew about the Primaris Adeptus Astartes and didn't reveal the secret until Roboute Guilliman and Cawl formally introduced them. It could be that the Adeptus Mechanicus has methods to indoctrinate the members of the new Chapter with all of the necessary skill sets without the need for an established Chapter - especially if the Adeptus Mechanicus has their own copy (or copies) of the Codex Astartes. Hypnoindoctrination, necro-cognition, programmed servitors, etc. could go a long way towards providing a baseline skill set to a nascent Chapter.

 

Something to consider is all of those Chapters whose lineage is unknown. There are a few, such as the Exorcists, whose unknown lineage makes sense (and we don't need to get into the debate about whether or not the Exorcists were created using the gene-seed of the Grey Knights). If a predecessor (parent) Chapter sent a team of battle-brothers/officers to form the core of a new Chapter, both Chapters should know the lineage of the new Chapter. This assumes, of course, that the cadre and the new Chapter have compatible gene-seed. For an established Chapter to send a cadre to form the core of a new Chapter with incompatible gene-seed, I imagine that all of the battle-brothers and officers sent to the new Chapter would have both of their progenoids removed first so that this invaluable resource wouldn't go to waste.

 

A new Chapter will undergo a period of training before they are considered ready. It's entirely possible that a new Chapter might be created from scratch, its initial officer leadership simply being the most suitable and potent of the new batch of Adeptus Astartes.

 

Ultimately, there is room for multiple processes to have been used over the millennia.

for chapters that have unknown lineage i just explain it away simply as over the years the imperium's :cussty record keeping including the chapter's own negligent record keeping early on means that no one really knows who their primarch is...then again those chapters must obviously not be sending a geneseed tithe to the mechanicus because you'd think they could look at the geneseed and figure it out...

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

I've always subscribed to the idea of a training cadre being used from a chapter either gene-related or otherwise willing to volunteer a few individuals to undertake the duty. The main reason I follow this line of thinking is because it makes logical sense. Either their others of their genetic lineage are present to teach them how to manage the flaws and utilize the strengths inherited from their geneseed, or they are otherwise trained by a chapter who resides in the same or nearby region, as this latter idea simply follows logically.

 

While many things in 40k and the Imperium don't follow logic as we know it, those things are generally speaking anything that has been ritualized in some manner. Whether that's due to the influence of the Ecclesiarchy or the Machine Cult of the Adeptus Mechanicus, both lead to ritualization and making religious that which may not or should not be made as such.

 

However, when we look at the military aspects of the Imperium, if we take out the sheer scale of the Imperium and the wars it fights, we see general human, military logic follow through. In this manner if we dispense with Ecclesiarchal priests, cogboys and Commissars from the Imperial Guard, what is left is a very familiar military to what we know today as well as recent history.

 

The Astartes seem to be the same, take away their ritualized aspects (chapter cult) and you get cold-calculating logic.

 

So here to me is where we separate things based on gene-lineage as for Astartes that can have a huge impact on their character. This is where you as the author need to make some serious decisions. Are they scions of their Primarch and follow his way of war? Do they diverge and if so, why? If you want to diverge significantly enough from their parent chapter, would it simply be easier to have an 'unknown' primarch and have whomever you desire their style of warfare to be similar to be the ones to train them?

 

To me, foundings are less a case of a hard and fast rule to follow and more of you want for your chapter to reflect to the reader. It is, as with everything else in chapter creation, a creative choice. The reason I like training cadres is because it makes sense to me and follows a line of logic that makes it easier to help set up the why's and how's of a chapter and how it operates.

 

If you want them to be as green as grass and shaped entirely by their first disastrous (or unexpectedly incredibly successful) deployments, that's entirely your story to tell.

 

My only caveat with any of this is as usual, if you're writing this with any semblance of showing this to others, the more well written and thought through your work is, the more a reader can suspend their disbelief and at the end of the day this is the same as any other creative piece of fiction.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

I've always subscribed to the idea of a training cadre being used from a chapter either gene-related or otherwise willing to volunteer a few individuals to undertake the duty. The main reason I follow this line of thinking is because it makes logical sense. Either their others of their genetic lineage are present to teach them how to manage the flaws and utilize the strengths inherited from their geneseed, or they are otherwise trained by a chapter who resides in the same or nearby region, as this latter idea simply follows logically.

 

While many things in 40k and the Imperium don't follow logic as we know it, those things are generally speaking anything that has been ritualized in some manner. Whether that's due to the influence of the Ecclesiarchy or the Machine Cult of the Adeptus Mechanicus, both lead to ritualization and making religious that which may not or should not be made as such.

 

However, when we look at the military aspects of the Imperium, if we take out the sheer scale of the Imperium and the wars it fights, we see general human, military logic follow through. In this manner if we dispense with Ecclesiarchal priests, cogboys and Commissars from the Imperial Guard, what is left is a very familiar military to what we know today as well as recent history.

 

The Astartes seem to be the same, take away their ritualized aspects (chapter cult) and you get cold-calculating logic.

 

So here to me is where we separate things based on gene-lineage as for Astartes that can have a huge impact on their character. This is where you as the author need to make some serious decisions. Are they scions of their Primarch and follow his way of war? Do they diverge and if so, why? If you want to diverge significantly enough from their parent chapter, would it simply be easier to have an 'unknown' primarch and have whomever you desire their style of warfare to be similar to be the ones to train them?

 

To me, foundings are less a case of a hard and fast rule to follow and more of you want for your chapter to reflect to the reader. It is, as with everything else in chapter creation, a creative choice. The reason I like training cadres is because it makes sense to me and follows a line of logic that makes it easier to help set up the why's and how's of a chapter and how it operates.

 

If you want them to be as green as grass and shaped entirely by their first disastrous (or unexpectedly incredibly successful) deployments, that's entirely your story to tell.

 

My only caveat with any of this is as usual, if you're writing this with any semblance of showing this to others, the more well written and thought through your work is, the more a reader can suspend their disbelief and at the end of the day this is the same as any other creative piece of fiction.

one fault in 40k logic is the BA letting their DC run into battle with things like thunderhammers, plasma pistols, combi-bolters, artificer armor, etc.

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

 

one fault in 40k logic is the BA letting their DC run into battle with things like thunderhammers, plasma pistols, combi-bolters, artificer armor, etc.

 

 

Depends on how you look at it. Firstly, If these are weapons and wargear wielded by the warrior in his life before joining the Death Company, this is something that is highly ritualized (something I mentioned earlier) in a lot of Astartes Chapters, especially in chapters like the Blood Angels who in many instances work on their own wargear.

 

Secondly, many of these items are not "relic" items. They may be more valuable, powerful and less replaceable than regular line items like Chainswords, they aren't implied to all be carrying chapter relics, merely powerful and uncommon items normally restricted to veterans.

 

Thirdly, the Death Company, while a suicide unit, are an incredible force-multiplier. To that end, you don't hand your front line of warriors less effective weapons just because you're expecting them to take the heaviest casualties, you equip them to be as effective as they can possibly be. In actuality, the reverse is true, with rear-echelon troops being the ones to receive less effective equipment. This counts doubly so if the weapons would otherwise be left in storage - keep in mind this too is a ritualized aspect of the 'warrior order' nature of the Astartes, a weapon can and should be used against the enemies of mankind whenever necessary.

 

All of these points can be argued, but they make a degree of logical sense in the context of the 40k universe.

 

What I mentioned in my earlier post above is what makes logical sense to me specifically, and logic can often be argued or dictated by the culture an individual comes from, which is what I've approached my responses through.

 

For myself, if you're equipping your suicide unit with literally irreplaceable chapter relics, no, that's fairly bird-brained even for 40k. If however you're simply gearing them up in a manner that doesn't deprive your other warriors of wargear, then you're only making your spear-tip unit all the sharper.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

 

one fault in 40k logic is the BA letting their DC run into battle with things like thunderhammers, plasma pistols, combi-bolters, artificer armor, etc.

 

 

Depends on how you look at it. Firstly, If these are weapons and wargear wielded by the warrior in his life before joining the Death Company, this is something that is highly ritualized (something I mentioned earlier) in a lot of Astartes Chapters, especially in chapters like the Blood Angels who in many instances work on their own wargear.

 

Secondly, many of these items are not "relic" items. They may be more valuable, powerful and less replaceable than regular line items like Chainswords, they aren't implied to all be carrying chapter relics, merely powerful and uncommon items normally restricted to veterans.

 

Thirdly, the Death Company, while a suicide unit, are an incredible force-multiplier. To that end, you don't hand your front line of warriors less effective weapons just because you're expecting them to take the heaviest casualties, you equip them to be as effective as they can possibly be. In actuality, the reverse is true, with rear-echelon troops being the ones to receive less effective equipment. This counts doubly so if the weapons would otherwise be left in storage - keep in mind this too is a ritualized aspect of the 'warrior order' nature of the Astartes, a weapon can and should be used against the enemies of mankind whenever necessary.

 

All of these points can be argued, but they make a degree of logical sense in the context of the 40k universe.

 

What I mentioned in my earlier post above is what makes logical sense to me specifically, and logic can often be argued or dictated by the culture an individual comes from, which is what I've approached my responses through.

 

For myself, if you're equipping your suicide unit with literally irreplaceable chapter relics, no, that's fairly bird-brained even for 40k. If however you're simply gearing them up in a manner that doesn't deprive your other warriors of wargear, then you're only making your spear-tip unit all the sharper.

 

historically in the real world at least you don't send units on what is expected to be a suicide mission or mission with a low chance of returning, and give them top quality gear that would be difficult and/or expensive to replace...like tycho and his armor that iirc was artificer armor, and while a thunder hammer may not be a chapter relic, they're decently rare, and a DC marine will be an effective warrior without said thunderhammer or lightning claws. the saint nazaire raid being a good example. they used an outdated wickes/clemson class destroyer rather than sending one of their newer destroyers

Edited October 19, 2020 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Beta galactosidase]

Obviously the AdMech does their whole process with the prognoids and what not, but how is the founding itself conducted? are brothers brought in from the parent chapter, or another chapter of the same geneseed?

 

obviously you can't have a whole chapter that's brand new, and has no experience in combat or with even being a space marine, let alone a chapter master...so would the captain of an established chapter's veteran company selected to become the new chapter's chapter master along with a librarian, chaplain, tech marine, and apothacary, and a small contingent of veterans to make up the company captains of the new incoming marines?

Hi! A new chapter of course needs to be trained by experienced marines, and the more the better. It’s very common for chapters to contribute to multi-chapter crusades and have a temporary, battlefield-only command structure with one officer in charge of all the other chapters. When new chapters are part of these crusades and task forces, they can learn from a dozen different senior officers, apothecaries, chief librarians, and masters of the forge. It is very inadequate to have only a few marines in a speciality, contributed from a single chapter, to be responsible for commanding and training a new chapter.

 

 

It’s also very inappropriate for an existing chapter master to have had decades to groom marines from his own chapter and send them to take over another chapter.

 

This idea had been speculated about online, and after that time it trickled it’s way into short stories and fw books. It should be treated with skepticism

Edited October 20, 2020 by Beta galactosidase

[Urauloth]

It’s also very inappropriate for an existing chapter master to have had decades to groom marines from his own chapter and send them to take over another chapter.

It might not be appropriate, but it seems like exactly the kind of thing that would happen in the Imperium.

 

That doesn't mean it happens every time, of course. It's perfectly feasible that a chapter could be created from wholecloth, its officers frained for their roles, and its scout and battle companies sent out to campaign under the tutelage of an established chapter to get practical battlefield experience. You'd get a veteran company that way, and a "live fire" test of the chapter's commanders. Really, there are a lot of ways a chapter could be formed, and probably all of them have happened at some point in the vast and poorly recorded history of the Imperium.

 

Something I wonder about a lot, though, is how much weight the AdMech is able to throw around when it comes to founding chapters and exerting influence over them. Is there a chapter somewhere with a questionably close relationship to the forge world whose magi oversaw its founding? Maybe one that spends a lot of its time accompanying Explorators or acting in concert with the forge's Legio.

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

 

 

historically in the real world at least you don't send units on what is expected to be a suicide mission or mission with a low chance of returning, and give them top quality gear that would be difficult and/or expensive to replace...like tycho and his armor that iirc was artificer armor, and while a thunder hammer may not be a chapter relic, they're decently rare, and a DC marine will be an effective warrior without said thunderhammer or lightning claws. the saint nazaire raid being a good example. they used an outdated wickes/clemson class destroyer rather than sending one of their newer destroyers

 

 

I get your argument, and I agree, however like I said, the ritualization of things in 40k leads to different frame of logic being applied.

 

In regards to your example, would a chainsword be as useful against a Hive Tyrant, Daemon Prince, Knight, Tank or any other hard-target as a Thunder Hammer? Thunder hammers are, while effective, fairly common in terms of melee-specific units in the Astartes roster. This also plays into the Astartes role, as almost any battlefield they deploy to in force is by it's very design is a high-risk and low-support manuever. Think of deploying by Drop Pod, any bad luck or mistake can result in a net loss.

 

This also doesn't take into account the Deathwatch or Grey Knights who are thrown into a fair number of near or completely suicidal actions with the best wargear the Imperium can provide, to ensure their task is completed.

 

Historically speaking, the men in a 'Forlorn Hope' unit (typically infantry) had either the same, or superior arms and armour afforded to them due to them being first through a breach in a siege or the absolute tip of the spear on the battlefield, choosing the most dangerous and often viewed as suicidal duties.

 

While in general I agree, I think there are definitely mitigating circumstances.

[Osteoclast]

 

 

 

historically in the real world at least you don't send units on what is expected to be a suicide mission or mission with a low chance of returning, and give them top quality gear that would be difficult and/or expensive to replace...like tycho and his armor that iirc was artificer armor, and while a thunder hammer may not be a chapter relic, they're decently rare, and a DC marine will be an effective warrior without said thunderhammer or lightning claws. the saint nazaire raid being a good example. they used an outdated wickes/clemson class destroyer rather than sending one of their newer destroyers

 

 

I get your argument, and I agree, however like I said, the ritualization of things in 40k leads to different frame of logic being applied.

 

In regards to your example, would a chainsword be as useful against a Hive Tyrant, Daemon Prince, Knight, Tank or any other hard-target as a Thunder Hammer? Thunder hammers are, while effective, fairly common in terms of melee-specific units in the Astartes roster. This also plays into the Astartes role, as almost any battlefield they deploy to in force is by it's very design is a high-risk and low-support manuever. Think of deploying by Drop Pod, any bad luck or mistake can result in a net loss.

 

This also doesn't take into account the Deathwatch or Grey Knights who are thrown into a fair number of near or completely suicidal actions with the best wargear the Imperium can provide, to ensure their task is completed.

 

Historically speaking, the men in a 'Forlorn Hope' unit (typically infantry) had either the same, or superior arms and armour afforded to them due to them being first through a breach in a siege or the absolute tip of the spear on the battlefield, choosing the most dangerous and often viewed as suicidal duties.

 

While in general I agree, I think there are definitely mitigating circumstances.

 

 

Plus if you win the battle, a lot of that gear is going to be fully recoverable.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

Obviously the AdMech does their whole process with the prognoids and what not, but how is the founding itself conducted? are brothers brought in from the parent chapter, or another chapter of the same geneseed?

 

obviously you can't have a whole chapter that's brand new, and has no experience in combat or with even being a space marine, let alone a chapter master...so would the captain of an established chapter's veteran company selected to become the new chapter's chapter master along with a librarian, chaplain, tech marine, and apothacary, and a small contingent of veterans to make up the company captains of the new incoming marines?

Hi! A new chapter of course needs to be trained by experienced marines, and the more the better. It’s very common for chapters to contribute to multi-chapter crusades and have a temporary, battlefield-only command structure with one officer in charge of all the other chapters. When new chapters are part of these crusades and task forces, they can learn from a dozen different senior officers, apothecaries, chief librarians, and masters of the forge. It is very inadequate to have only a few marines in a speciality, contributed from a single chapter, to be responsible for commanding and training a new chapter.

 

 

It’s also very inappropriate for an existing chapter master to have had decades to groom marines from his own chapter and send them to take over another chapter.

 

This idea had been speculated about online, and after that time it trickled it’s way into short stories and fw books. It should be treated with skepticism

 

taking part in a crusade isn't exactly training...combat experience and training are two VERY different things...you don't learn :cuss by just getting thrown into a deployment without some basic training, which is where we run into problems....

 

i don't see the issue with a chapter providing experienced officers to form the leadership of for the initial founding of the chapter and can help to explain why some chapters are closely allied with each other. within a few hundred years there'd likely be little direct connection between the new chapter and the 'parent' chapter.

 

 

 

 

historically in the real world at least you don't send units on what is expected to be a suicide mission or mission with a low chance of returning, and give them top quality gear that would be difficult and/or expensive to replace...like tycho and his armor that iirc was artificer armor, and while a thunder hammer may not be a chapter relic, they're decently rare, and a DC marine will be an effective warrior without said thunderhammer or lightning claws. the saint nazaire raid being a good example. they used an outdated wickes/clemson class destroyer rather than sending one of their newer destroyers

 

 

I get your argument, and I agree, however like I said, the ritualization of things in 40k leads to different frame of logic being applied.

 

In regards to your example, would a chainsword be as useful against a Hive Tyrant, Daemon Prince, Knight, Tank or any other hard-target as a Thunder Hammer? Thunder hammers are, while effective, fairly common in terms of melee-specific units in the Astartes roster. This also plays into the Astartes role, as almost any battlefield they deploy to in force is by it's very design is a high-risk and low-support manuever. Think of deploying by Drop Pod, any bad luck or mistake can result in a net loss.

 

This also doesn't take into account the Deathwatch or Grey Knights who are thrown into a fair number of near or completely suicidal actions with the best wargear the Imperium can provide, to ensure their task is completed.

 

Historically speaking, the men in a 'Forlorn Hope' unit (typically infantry) had either the same, or superior arms and armour afforded to them due to them being first through a breach in a siege or the absolute tip of the spear on the battlefield, choosing the most dangerous and often viewed as suicidal duties.

 

While in general I agree, I think there are definitely mitigating circumstances.

 

 

Plus if you win the battle, a lot of that gear is going to be fully recoverable.

 

IF you win, and IF it isn't mashed to bits by a tank, or monster, or simply lost in the mud or underbrush of the battlefield... 

 

 

 

 

historically in the real world at least you don't send units on what is expected to be a suicide mission or mission with a low chance of returning, and give them top quality gear that would be difficult and/or expensive to replace...like tycho and his armor that iirc was artificer armor, and while a thunder hammer may not be a chapter relic, they're decently rare, and a DC marine will be an effective warrior without said thunderhammer or lightning claws. the saint nazaire raid being a good example. they used an outdated wickes/clemson class destroyer rather than sending one of their newer destroyers

 

 

I get your argument, and I agree, however like I said, the ritualization of things in 40k leads to different frame of logic being applied.

 

In regards to your example, would a chainsword be as useful against a Hive Tyrant, Daemon Prince, Knight, Tank or any other hard-target as a Thunder Hammer? Thunder hammers are, while effective, fairly common in terms of melee-specific units in the Astartes roster. This also plays into the Astartes role, as almost any battlefield they deploy to in force is by it's very design is a high-risk and low-support manuever. Think of deploying by Drop Pod, any bad luck or mistake can result in a net loss.

 

This also doesn't take into account the Deathwatch or Grey Knights who are thrown into a fair number of near or completely suicidal actions with the best wargear the Imperium can provide, to ensure their task is completed.

 

Historically speaking, the men in a 'Forlorn Hope' unit (typically infantry) had either the same, or superior arms and armour afforded to them due to them being first through a breach in a siege or the absolute tip of the spear on the battlefield, choosing the most dangerous and often viewed as suicidal duties.

 

While in general I agree, I think there are definitely mitigating circumstances.

 

 

Plus if you win the battle, a lot of that gear is going to be fully recoverable.

 

thunderhammers are common in game, but in fluff i have not seen a lot of them...typically officers have the Power type weapons. game and fluff are super different.

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

 

thunderhammers are common in game, but in fluff i have not seen a lot of them...typically officers have the Power type weapons. game and fluff are super different.

 

 

 

Absolutely it is, but we're also talking at this point very specifically about the Blood Angels, a pre-eminent Legion even among it's peers of the Great Crusade as well as post Heresy breaking into Chapters. Even if we're talking about early successors like the Flesh Tearers I'd say the same thing. They have the chapter Armory to support their habits as well as the political standing to be well-equipped by the mechanicus.

 

If we were talking about another chapter, throwing line warriors (assault squad, assault intercessors, etc) into a suicidal action, I'd expect them to be equipped as best they can be to have the desired effect on the enemy.

 

The issue when talking about the Death Company is that there aren't really any real-world parallels to draw in terms of both character, role and equipment combined. Our Norse Berzerkergang didn't wear heavy plate or chain, but it also wasn't the time period, nor did they have the resources for it, the same goes for native African warrior cultures.

 

In terms of the closest parallels, it'd be the western Chivalric Knights and Christian Military Orders, Spartan Hoplites or Japanese Samurai of the Edo period. Despite how much military acumen these men possessed, when they were committed, they would go to their deaths with all of their personal weapons and armour, no matter the cost. 

 

I'm not making the argument that tabletop and fluff are the same in this regard, anything possible on the tabletop I'd easily pare down in terms of how it's represented in the fluff on any day of the week. However, that said, the units on the tabletop have their roots in the fluff and there are a fair amount of very specific examples like the Death Company that aren't easily defined in the same fashion.

 

Do I think they could fit the squad out with Thunder Hammers and such 'rarer' gear? Yes. Do I think they can justify it? In the context of the 40k universe and knowing who we're talking about here? Yes.

Do I also think it'd be feasible to field five units of Death Company similarly outfitted in one engagement? No, not even slightly.

 

I am always one to put the fluff above tabletop rules and efficiency, because that's what I enjoy. I don't however have any misconceptions that the majority of the fluff is written by military theorists or historians. GW is magnificently bad at technical specifications for their vehicles, numbers of combatants and casualties for battles and wars, actual functioning mechanics for theoretically very simple weapons (bolters), a complete inability to have any sort of standardization even in the ballpark for things such as ship sizes and crew numbers (often times the same ship in one story will fluctuate between say 5kms and 25kms in length) and that's even with variation in individual ships regardless of class.

 

 

 

To bring it back to being on topic since this has veered off so wildly, this is one of the big reasons that there's no true standardization in terms of chapter creation. They haven't bothered to write it, nor would it be necessarily set in stone even if they did since by their own admission, almost everything they put out is both true and untrue at the same time.

 

They truly have Schrodinger's-Lore.

 

 

All this discussion however, is our own personal interpretation of a combination of the Lore and how it's interpreted for the tabletop as you cannot really have them in isolation at this point. If you believe the Death Company to not be equipped like that, that's your own head-canon as it were. I tend to take balanced approach between real-world logic and in-universe cultural context. I can see the logic of not giving rare equipment to someone who's just going to be nutty and get it completely shrecked, however at the same time I see exactly the perspective of the opposite and how it'd be justified in-universe.

The same goes for training-cadres or any other method you care to mention.

 

 

IF you win, and IF it isn't mashed to bits by a tank, or monster, or simply lost in the mud or underbrush of the battlefield... 

 

 

This can happen to the chapters Honour-Guard, Deathwing, Sword Bretheren, etc because they are all going to be stuck into the enemy at their strongest point. The same rule applies to everything there. I mean, it's melee combat in a universe that has guns that can cause destruction at significant range at the molecular level, even the Imperium (Conversion Beamer). Melee is ridiculous, it's one of the things that makes 40k so beloved.

[Brother Tyler]

Something I wonder about a lot, though, is how much weight the AdMech is able to throw around when it comes to founding chapters and exerting influence over them. Is there a chapter somewhere with a questionably close relationship to the forge world whose magi oversaw its founding? Maybe one that spends a lot of its time accompanying Explorators or acting in concert with the forge's Legio.

Yes, there is an official Chapter known as the Steel Confessors. GW created them for Games Day 2005 and they were featured in a mega-battle at that event, the Battle for Kalevala, along with an Index Astartes article that was available to participants at that event and which you can find if you search online. They were created by the Adeptus Mechanicus without the authorization of the High Lords of Terra, using gene-seed provided by the Iron Hands Chapter. After the Inquisition found out and petitioned for the destruction of the Chapter, the High Lords decided to allow the Chapter to continue to exist. The article doesn't mention the Iron Hands providing a team to train the nascent Steel Confessors, either as a permanent part of the new Chapter or as a temporary cadre.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

 

thunderhammers are common in game, but in fluff i have not seen a lot of them...typically officers have the Power type weapons. game and fluff are super different.

 

 

 

Absolutely it is, but we're also talking at this point very specifically about the Blood Angels, a pre-eminent Legion even among it's peers of the Great Crusade as well as post Heresy breaking into Chapters. Even if we're talking about early successors like the Flesh Tearers I'd say the same thing. They have the chapter Armory to support their habits as well as the political standing to be well-equipped by the mechanicus.

 

If we were talking about another chapter, throwing line warriors (assault squad, assault intercessors, etc) into a suicidal action, I'd expect them to be equipped as best they can be to have the desired effect on the enemy.

 

The issue when talking about the Death Company is that there aren't really any real-world parallels to draw in terms of both character, role and equipment combined. Our Norse Berzerkergang didn't wear heavy plate or chain, but it also wasn't the time period, nor did they have the resources for it, the same goes for native African warrior cultures.

 

In terms of the closest parallels, it'd be the western Chivalric Knights and Christian Military Orders, Spartan Hoplites or Japanese Samurai of the Edo period. Despite how much military acumen these men possessed, when they were committed, they would go to their deaths with all of their personal weapons and armour, no matter the cost. 

 

I'm not making the argument that tabletop and fluff are the same in this regard, anything possible on the tabletop I'd easily pare down in terms of how it's represented in the fluff on any day of the week. However, that said, the units on the tabletop have their roots in the fluff and there are a fair amount of very specific examples like the Death Company that aren't easily defined in the same fashion.

 

Do I think they could fit the squad out with Thunder Hammers and such 'rarer' gear? Yes. Do I think they can justify it? In the context of the 40k universe and knowing who we're talking about here? Yes.

Do I also think it'd be feasible to field five units of Death Company similarly outfitted in one engagement? No, not even slightly.

 

I am always one to put the fluff above tabletop rules and efficiency, because that's what I enjoy. I don't however have any misconceptions that the majority of the fluff is written by military theorists or historians. GW is magnificently bad at technical specifications for their vehicles, numbers of combatants and casualties for battles and wars, actual functioning mechanics for theoretically very simple weapons (bolters), a complete inability to have any sort of standardization even in the ballpark for things such as ship sizes and crew numbers (often times the same ship in one story will fluctuate between say 5kms and 25kms in length) and that's even with variation in individual ships regardless of class.

 

 

 

To bring it back to being on topic since this has veered off so wildly, this is one of the big reasons that there's no true standardization in terms of chapter creation. They haven't bothered to write it, nor would it be necessarily set in stone even if they did since by their own admission, almost everything they put out is both true and untrue at the same time.

 

They truly have Schrodinger's-Lore.

 

 

All this discussion however, is our own personal interpretation of a combination of the Lore and how it's interpreted for the tabletop as you cannot really have them in isolation at this point. If you believe the Death Company to not be equipped like that, that's your own head-canon as it were. I tend to take balanced approach between real-world logic and in-universe cultural context. I can see the logic of not giving rare equipment to someone who's just going to be nutty and get it completely shrecked, however at the same time I see exactly the perspective of the opposite and how it'd be justified in-universe.

The same goes for training-cadres or any other method you care to mention.

 

 

IF you win, and IF it isn't mashed to bits by a tank, or monster, or simply lost in the mud or underbrush of the battlefield... 

 

 

This can happen to the chapters Honour-Guard, Deathwing, Sword Bretheren, etc because they are all going to be stuck into the enemy at their strongest point. The same rule applies to everything there. I mean, it's melee combat in a universe that has guns that can cause destruction at significant range at the molecular level, even the Imperium (Conversion Beamer). Melee is ridiculous, it's one of the things that makes 40k so beloved.

 

i mean we're talking about blood angels and their successors, not just blood angels to be fair.

 

Something I wonder about a lot, though, is how much weight the AdMech is able to throw around when it comes to founding chapters and exerting influence over them. Is there a chapter somewhere with a questionably close relationship to the forge world whose magi oversaw its founding? Maybe one that spends a lot of its time accompanying Explorators or acting in concert with the forge's Legio.

Yes, there is an official Chapter known as the Steel Confessors. GW created them for Games Day 2005 and they were featured in a mega-battle at that event, the Battle for Kalevala, along with an Index Astartes article that was available to participants at that event and which you can find if you search online. They were created by the Adeptus Mechanicus without the authorization of the High Lords of Terra, using gene-seed provided by the Iron Hands Chapter. After the Inquisition found out and petitioned for the destruction of the Chapter, the High Lords decided to allow the Chapter to continue to exist. The article doesn't mention the Iron Hands providing a team to train the nascent Steel Confessors, either as a permanent part of the new Chapter or as a temporary cadre.

 

that sounds like an outlier however lol

[Brother Lunkhead]

 

 

Something I wonder about a lot, though, is how much weight the AdMech is able to throw around when it comes to founding chapters and exerting influence over them. Is there a chapter somewhere with a questionably close relationship to the forge world whose magi oversaw its founding? Maybe one that spends a lot of its time accompanying Explorators or acting in concert with the forge's Legio.

Yes, there is an official Chapter known as the Steel Confessors. GW created them for Games Day 2005 and they were featured in a mega-battle at that event, the Battle for Kalevala, along with an Index Astartes article that was available to participants at that event and which you can find if you search online. They were created by the Adeptus Mechanicus without the authorization of the High Lords of Terra, using gene-seed provided by the Iron Hands Chapter. After the Inquisition found out and petitioned for the destruction of the Chapter, the High Lords decided to allow the Chapter to continue to exist. The article doesn't mention the Iron Hands providing a team to train the nascent Steel Confessors, either as a permanent part of the new Chapter or as a temporary cadre.

 

that sounds like an outlier however lol

 

 

Could be, but I think it's more like a precedent. The fact that the AdMech could create a Space Marine chapter in secret without any authorization from the High Lords of Terra, be condemned by the Inquisition and still get a nod of approval from the High Lords, speaks to the power and influence of the AdMech. Next time they'll probably feel more confident in approaching the High Lords and make a direct request for the creation of a new chapter. Either way, they'll likely do it again

 

GW leaves a lot of lore open ended to allow room for hobbyists to flex their creative muscles. The more detail they put into the narrative, the less room there is for creativity on our part. Chapter creation is just one example, and I for one am glad of it.

[Brother Tyler]

that sounds like an outlier however lol

It's most definitely an outlier. However, the example I gave was a direct answer to the question:

 

Is there a chapter somewhere with a questionably close relationship to the forge world whose magi oversaw its founding?

[WrathOfTheLion]

There's always the traditional Unforgiven way of founding some new chapters. Fabricate some records saying they were founded a few thousand years prior when one of them pops up out of nowhere 

 

At least with the Consecrators and a few others that is what is speculated in the Codex and other documentation.

 

But I would think that exploiting the bureaucratic inefficiencies and inaccuracies in record keeping has been used more than once to found new chapters without permission.

Edited October 22, 2020 by WrathOfTheLion

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

There's always the traditional Unforgiven way of founding some new chapters. Fabricate some records saying they were founded a few thousand years prior when one of them pops up out of nowhere 

 

At least with the Consecrators and a few others that is what is speculated in the Codex and other documentation.

 

But I would think that exploiting the bureaucratic inefficiencies and inaccuracies in record keeping has been used more than once to found new chapters without permission.

 

The trick is in how you present it. Stating it as fact is bad, implying it is better. There is more depth and nuance to it but really that's it. In 40k it's usually better to imply, but not overly mystify unless it's necessary, as mystery for it's own sake ends up looking more of a crutch for the writer because they couldn't explain or rationalize something properly, which doesn't look good.

[Beta galactosidase]

 

Fabricate some records saying they were founded a few thousand years prior when one of them pops up out of nowhere ;)

 

 

The trick is in how you present it. Stating it as fact is bad, implying it is better. There is more depth and nuance to it but really that's it. In 40k it's usually better to imply, but not overly mystify unless it's necessary, as mystery for it's own sake ends up looking more of a crutch for the writer because they couldn't explain or rationalize something properly, which doesn't look good.

 

 

It’s very much better to imply it, and also do it without mystifying it. It’s so important to talk about what the chapter and the marines are actually like, their aesthetic, their behaviors. When there’s too much about their secret origin 6000 years ago and a conspiracy by some official chapter, then it’s just piggy backing on something that already exists. GW has already written about the dark angles being secretive, and all the players have already read about it, so repeating it for a DIY chapter doesn’t have any value.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

A new chapter of course needs to be trained by experienced marines, and the more the better. It’s very common for chapters to contribute to multi-chapter crusades and have a temporary, battlefield-only command structure with one officer in charge of all the other chapters. When new chapters are part of these crusades and task forces, they can learn from a dozen different senior officers, apothecaries, chief librarians, and masters of the forge. It is very inadequate to have only a few marines in a speciality, contributed from a single chapter, to be responsible for commanding and training a new chapter.

It’s also very inappropriate for an existing chapter master to have had decades to groom marines from his own chapter and send them to take over another chapter.

This idea had been speculated about online, and after that time it trickled it’s way into short stories and fw books. It should be treated with skepticism

 

taking part in a crusade isn't exactly training...combat experience and training are two VERY different things...you don't learn :cuss by just getting thrown into a deployment without some basic training, which is where we run into problems....

i don't see the issue with a chapter providing experienced officers to form the leadership of for the initial founding of the chapter and can help to explain why some chapters are closely allied with each other. within a few hundred years there'd likely be little direct connection between the new chapter and the 'parent' chapter.

 

We know that junior marine units get eased into combat roles all the time:

 

These four Battle Companies form the main battle lines and generally bear the brunt of the fighting

 

....

 

[Reserve companies] are intended to act as a reserve and may be used to reinforce the main battle line, launch diversionary attacks or stem enemy flanking moves.

Junior marines join reserve companies after they act as scouts, only experience marines can be in battle companies. As long as they’ve been trained

 

Chapters make battle brothers by attaching them as scouts to bigger strike forces, and a new chapter has no big strike forces. A chapter makes battle companies but using their junior battler brothers as reserves for battle companies. It’s just the pattern we’ve already been given.

 

 

If you haven’t got a battle company for your reserve companies and junior marines to fight along side of, then you need to borrow some other chapters’ preferably three or four other chapters’ so you get a breadth of influences.

 

 

I

[Brother Tyler]

I split the posts about the Ultima Founding Dark Angels successors into a separate discussion in the Dark Angels forum.

[Brother Tyler]

@Doghouse made the following observation about the Tome Keepers Chapter, whose Index Astartes article was published in this month's issue of White Dwarf Magazine:

 

Having read this one thing I did see that I found interesting is that it specifically says how a chapter is formed. I've only ever seen hints and specualtion in the past as to the exactly how a Chapter is formed but this details the process which is a nice touch as I've never seen it specifically mention taking officers from a parent chapter in a codex beyond the Second Founding Horus Heresy material.

 

"As with most newly created Chapters, officers and specialists were requisitioned from the parent Chapter. Captain Caelus Viator, formerly of the Ultramarines 2nd Company, was elevated to the rank of Chapter Master, and he over saw the creation and training of four hundred battle-brothers over the following two decades. Their training ground would be that of Dornak IV, a barren death world in the Segmentum Solar.The new aspirants were subjected to years of harsh physical training, psycho-indoctrination, genetic alteration and painful surgical enhancements before they were ready to become warriors of the Adeptus Astartes. Several hundred passed the gruelling tests. Many thousands did not."

(I haven't read the article yet.)

 

This is interesting as it gives us an official example of a new Chapter created with a core of officers/specialists from an existing Chapter, the single predecessor in this case being the Ultramarines.

 

If we accept other lore at face value, without any conspiracy (which I'll get into in a bit), the [pure Primaris] Ultima Founding Chapters weren't created in this way. If the Ultima Founding Chapters weren't created with a core of officers/specialists from an existing Chapter, it remains possible that other previous Chapters similarly weren't created from officers/specialists from existing Chapters.

 

The conspiracy I mentioned, and for which there is no evidence in the lore, is that officers and specialists were gradually taken over the years, most likely without the understanding of the Chapters. The mechanism for this would be individuals/units assigned to perform certain duties alongside other elements of the Imperium. If this were a complete subterfuge, the Space Marines would have been taken to Cawl's hidden facilities and put in stasis until ready for the training. The most easily recognized opportunities for this would have been via the Inquisition and/or Deathwatch. Such Adeptus Astartes would have to overcome any adverse reactions to being abducted, whether through forcible hypno-indoctrination or via appealing to the mission appointed to Cawl by Guilliman. As I said, though, there's no evidence whatsoever for this happening - my purpose is merely to illustrate one method which it could have been implemented.

 

For most of us, I think that the core of officers/specialists from the predecessor Chapter makes sense. It doesn't explain how any Chapter's lineage could be unknown (except for those created in secret, not using this method), but it answers the question of how a predecessor can influence a successor via nurture. At the very least, this article demonstrates that the method has been used at least one time in the past, making it tenable for other Chapters (especially DIYs whose creators might be challenged to support their Chapter being created in such a way).

[Doghouse]

I think they could explain away the older chapters losing their lineage with the old ancient and vast administration trope that 40k is so keen on using. That's a bit of a tricky one as the chapter would have to rely soley on it's harvested geneseed for some considerable time and for it to become so ritualised that people no longer question it's source.

 

Primaris chapters created recently would be harder to explain away because only a couple of hundred years would have passed which is what confuses me about some not knowing their founder chapter. The only circumstance I could think of would be to hide their identity which these days rather unsubtly points at traitor gene stock.

 

Another interesting aspect of the Tomb Keepers index is that all two hundred of the original marines asked to pass the Rubricon which says to me that this technology is quite widespread so a chapter could start out as first born then later transform to completely Primaris rather than through attrition and casualy replacements.

[Dracos]

I have always visualized my Warhawks as a Ultima Founding Chapter who were trained my “Advisors” from the Raptors. I liked the idea of them being trained by what’s many think of as the Chapter with the most pragmatically minded of the Astartes. It’s just the most probable way of any military to build and train a new unit in any era or genre.

 

The Unknowns is just bad lore building by GW unless they have a curtain yet to be pulled back. The only explanation that doesn’t send everything off the rails is almost as silly. “Cawl I need thousands of the Grey Shields to have their parentage masked. If no one knows their Primach or origin (including me?) then they’ll be more apt to think of each other as Brothers and not have competing loyalties”

 

Meh

[Uberlord Gendo]

Counterpoint: Unknown origins for chapters is actually a longstanding security mechanism deliberately implemented by M33 in order to prevent Space Marines from clumping along legion lines. When they know their gene-seed source, Space Marines tend to revere their primarch and even the likes of the Flesh Tearers show up when Dante calls. With longstanding rivalries and the like, one imagines the High Lords could well have fears of astartes feuds. Further, observing things like the Feast of Blades (or the Last Wall Protocol) or the way Ultramar operates, the High Lords would be understandably worried that the old legion framework could lead to the spread of heresy- bonds of loyalty between chapters could create problems and prevent effective purging (Just look at how the Astral Claws took in Marines from their successor.)

So in order to disrupt the power and brotherhood of the legions, the introduction of chapters with no ties to any legion would be desirable- it's a pretty smart move when you think about it.

 

And that's if the high Lords are on the up and up. If you're up to no good and you want to avoid another beheading or whatever, then it would be really nice to minimize the number of Marines who are going to be willing to go after you just because the CM of some first founding chapter gets pissy. In fact, it would be great if there were some chapters whose first loyalty was to the Council of Terra... which actually gets back into the generally a good idea territory- if a chapter's gone all heretical and has enough pull to drag some of their brethren along for the ride and they're clever enough not to go full chaos right away it'd be nice to a) increase the odds that they can't call Ultramar for aid and b) have some guys you can send after them who won't get cold feet because they share the same gene-daddy.