Effective 9e HQ Choices for Your Army Style?

[Dracos]

When the Supplement was released we did a few discussions on units and their best uses/combos. I am currently half a dozen games into 9th with my Warhawks <RavenGuard> and in the process of rebuilding the 8e army list into a more effective 9e list. It would help if I actually had the new Codex but flgs has had issues with GW distribution (color me surprised:() I thought I would open a topic where each of us could share our thoughts on the best HQs and why we think they for our Raven Guard/Successor army best.

 

My go to choice for a while now has been the Master of Sanctity. I give him Master of Ambush and what was Wise Orator and he turns a unit of Aggressors into a blender. While the new rules regarding double shooting are a nerf to some, I always have my Aggressors on the move anyway so it hardly changes anything for me. I am going to shelf the 2 units of 5 boltstorm Aggressors and build 1 unit of 5 flamestorm Aggressors. I’ve been using one unit to reinforce the Infiltrators in the middle of the board with MoA , and the second with SftS to take a flip an opponents objective with the help of <Shrike> and some Bolter Inceptors. The Flamestorm are cheaper as are the Bladeguard I’m looking to help flip and/or hold those same Objectives.

 

Speaking of <Shrike>. I have been teaming him with one of two units of Bolter Inceptors as mentioned above but that’s only until I get my 5 Plasma Inceptors built. I’ll run them with the Bolter Inceptors until I get the 2 x5 Bladeguard built. I would rather run a cheaper HQ but no one can do as much with Plasma Inceptors as <Shrike> . I don’t know why his number of attacks didn’t get boosted with the new lightning claw rules? Unless they did and I missed it. He does easy but he’s not a Smash Captain so using as one is silly. Buff the Inceptors and go an slash infantry unit and he’s had a good day. I recent used him to finish off a Ork War Boss and then put the last wounds on a Bomba ... which promptly blew up lol

 

So currently for me <Shrike> and Master of Sanctity. I am contemplating something else though I need to get some rules straight and see if I have the points. The idea is this ....

 

2 Indomitus Lts as a single HQ choice. Spend 1CP to put them both in the Shadows. Then two units of 5 Bladeguard in the Shadows for 2CP. Then each Lt comes in with unit of Bladeguard to reinforce the Infiltrators and Assault Intercessors who either advanced and/or infiltrated to put a total of three melee units on two of the midfield units. I am considering using Justicars instead but that’s another CP and I’ve heard they aren’t performing that well. Maybe they aren’t being used right but I really like the idea of using Indomitus Lts to boost my assault units turns 2/3-5. I have a plan for fire support but that’s another discussion topic

 

My question is does anyone know for sure of this game plan is legal? I’m trying to take advantage of the Lt rules to get two deep strikes out of one HQ choice. It sounds gamey, but given what they’ve done to water a lot of our other rules down, I don’t care.

 

I do want to future proof my build however and was curious what others thought of this approach and share your own best shenanigans.

[Lukoi]

My playstyle is counter punch oriented, based on playing second, and I currently run an all infantry Army.

 

I run a MoSanctity with Wise O, and Rites of War, because he turns my BGV 5 man into an OBSEC capable little brick.

 

I use a chief apoth to regenerate gravis based guys in my small castle, and a LT for cheaper rerolls on my Eradicators than a Captain, and they get Recitation of Focus from the Chaplain usually, reducing their need for rerolls the same amount as a captain.

 

My last character isnt a HQ per se, but it's an Assassin. I still may end up dropping him at some point for another stack of troops, but I feel like I've yet to get the use out of him I want, and want to see that play out before making that change.

[Lukoi]

P.s. rereading the rules on LTs, doesnt seem to be a problem. They start in coherency once on the board and then they can break up. Seems legit to me.

[Alcyon]

My list is a bit warped because we're playing Crusade, but right now I've landed on the new Bike Chaplain with Swift & Deadly leading some Outriders, a Terminator Librarian granting a 5++ to Flamestorm Aggressors, and a Primaris Lt. with the Bellicos relic. I have yet to run the first two, but from the mathhammer the Chaplain & Outriders should be a modestly strong unit for taking objectives off of midline troop units, and the latter is going to be my anchor for holding objectives with MoA.

 

I started out running a Phobos Captain but the Omni-scrambler just hasn't been that relevant, and Str 4 on Ex Tenebris has been a major stumbling block against most of his usual targets. Plus, most of my army either benefits from Bolter Fusillades or are Veteran Warriors for re-roll ones, and I've often found I'd rather Auspex Scan a deep-striking unit than screen them out with the Captain's aura (Infiltrators are better in that role as backline screeners.) The Heavy Bolter equivalent on the Lt. is doing better than Ex Tenebris so far though the Captain did put in a ton of work, particularly with his combat knife early in the campaign.

 

I'm sure Shrike is very strong as the only Chapter Master that can easily keep up with Inceptors, and I think firstborn jump characters are still big hits in RG particularly now that Chaplains can grant HQs with Teeth of Terra +1 to wound. The two combat relics (Raven's Fury & the claws) are pretty solid and if I was playing firstborn I'd be all over them.

Edited October 20, 2020 by Alcyon

[Dracos]

I've come to a similar conclusion as to the omni-scramblers. They don't seem to have an effectiveness in a meta where few players are making use of strategic or reserves of any kind. It's the scoring system pushing most players to strike hard as possible Turn One. Mind you I regularly put about 800 points in reserve so ymmv on that conclusion. I'm going to Incursors and haven't used a Captain in quite a while and don't see that changing soon. Chaplains of any variety are just a better Swiss army knife at a cheaper cost. 

 

I have the same thoughts on Ex Tenebris but will save that for a later discussion

 

I'm very interested in getting my Codex and testing the Chief Apothecary in a crowd of Aggressors and/or Bladeguard. My only real issue is he doesn't take an HQ slot. I'm usually a cheap as chips guy when it comes to characters, and spending points on a Chief Apothecary and two HQ slots really it's into my model count.

 

PS: I'm sure it's in the book I'm waiting for but how does the Chappie turn Bladeguard into ObSec?

Edited October 20, 2020 by Dracos

[Lukoi]

Rites of War WLT has been changed to grant OBSEC to units <6" if they are <CORE> and/or <CHARACTER>.  

 

The Chief Apothecary can currently res one model to full wounds for 0 CP, and still conduct combat restorative (flat 3W heal in the Chief's case) on two models (as long as it's across two different units).  That plus his 6+++ bubble, makes him worth the 105 pts in the current meta, especially when RG lacks alot of native durability enhancers. I've made his points back in res/wounds in every game played with him so far, and since I leave him focused typically on Gravis units in my mini-castle, it's quite valuable.

Edited October 20, 2020 by Lukoi

[Alcyon]

I'll be running an Apothecary too outside of Crusade; under the Narrative Play ruleset it's really easy to get a 6+++ on units via Battle Honours so there's less need for him, and it's harder to combine mobility with utility because you can't take more than one Warlord Trait per character. I'll have to give my setup a bit of a rethink.

[Lukoi]

Not sure what your WLT spread is, but the CoA typically only runs one WLT (Selfless healer) to heal a 2nd model from a 2nd unit.

 

I believe you could safely let that go if you needed to, and the baked in FNP, plus existing heal/rez capability is worth considering.

[Mandragola]

Unfortunately it doesn't work any more to use SftS on two Lieutenants (if it ever did). They've changed a bit in this codex. Previously, you bought 1-2 off the same datasheet. Now, if you buy one you're allowed a second that doesn't use a slot, but it's definitely a separate unit and datasheet. This is mainly good news as it lets you pick different guys, but it'll clearly cost you 2CPs to do SftS on them, as they are separate units. Sorry.

 

Having said all that, I think a Reiver lieutenant is a really interesting option for Ravenguard. He's a good candidate to be your MoA and his terror troops strat can switch off obsec from enemy units. I'd be tempted to run him and something like 10 assault intercessors together. It's a great way to steal enemy objectives, at least for a while. The enemy will probably get rid of your guys but hopefully by that time you'll have done some damage. If you stick the armour indomitus on the LT he'd be a pain to get rid of. You could potentially make this guy your Warlord so he could have the trait that makes nearby units of yours obsec. Send him with some flamer aggressors instead of the intercessors and have fun.

[ShinyRhino]

When the Supplement was released we did a few discussions on units and their best uses/combos. I am currently half a dozen games into 9th with my Warhawks <RavenGuard> and in the process of rebuilding the 8e army list into a more effective 9e list. It would help if I actually had the new Codex but flgs has had issues with GW distribution (color me surprised:() I thought I would open a topic where each of us could share our thoughts on the best HQs and why we think they for our Raven Guard/Successor army best.

 

My go to choice for a while now has been the Master of Sanctity. I give him Master of Ambush and what was Wise Orator and he turns a unit of Aggressors into a blender. While the new rules regarding double shooting are a nerf to some, I always have my Aggressors on the move anyway so it hardly changes anything for me. I am going to shelf the 2 units of 5 boltstorm Aggressors and build 1 unit of 5 flamestorm Aggressors. I’ve been using one unit to reinforce the Infiltrators in the middle of the board with MoA , and the second with SftS to take a flip an opponents objective with the help of <Shrike> and some Bolter Inceptors. The Flamestorm are cheaper as are the Bladeguard I’m looking to help flip and/or hold those same Objectives.

 

Speaking of <Shrike>. I have been teaming him with one of two units of Bolter Inceptors as mentioned above but that’s only until I get my 5 Plasma Inceptors built. I’ll run them with the Bolter Inceptors until I get the 2 x5 Bladeguard built. I would rather run a cheaper HQ but no one can do as much with Plasma Inceptors as <Shrike> . I don’t know why his number of attacks didn’t get boosted with the new lightning claw rules? Unless they did and I missed it. He does easy but he’s not a Smash Captain so using as one is silly. Buff the Inceptors and go an slash infantry unit and he’s had a good day. I recent used him to finish off a Ork War Boss and then put the last wounds on a Bomba ... which promptly blew up lol

 

So currently for me <Shrike> and Master of Sanctity. I am contemplating something else though I need to get some rules straight and see if I have the points. The idea is this ....

 

2 Indomitus Lts as a single HQ choice. Spend 1CP to put them both in the Shadows. Then two units of 5 Bladeguard in the Shadows for 2CP. Then each Lt comes in with unit of Bladeguard to reinforce the Infiltrators and Assault Intercessors who either advanced and/or infiltrated to put a total of three melee units on two of the midfield units. I am considering using Justicars instead but that’s another CP and I’ve heard they aren’t performing that well. Maybe they aren’t being used right but I really like the idea of using Indomitus Lts to boost my assault units turns 2/3-5. I have a plan for fire support but that’s another discussion topic

 

My question is does anyone know for sure of this game plan is legal? I’m trying to take advantage of the Lt rules to get two deep strikes out of one HQ choice. It sounds gamey, but given what they’ve done to water a lot of our other rules down, I don’t care.

 

I do want to future proof my build however and was curious what others thought of this approach and share your own best shenanigans.

Two LTs is no longer a single HQ choice. Taking one simply means a second one doesn't take a slot in the detachment. They're not deployed as a single unit, so you pay CP for each one to SftS.

 

 

I'm trying to wrap my head around how my all-Phobos army will work in 9th.

I'm keeping my Infiltrators at full 10 man squads, Incursors at five. The new haywire mine rules make for nice objective defenders.

I have to build some carbine Sergeants for my Eliminators for move-shoot-move. Reivers look like a lot of fun.

 

But what HQ in Phobos compliments those? I really want to drop a Phobos LT in with my fifteen Reivers, with Master of the Vanguard.

The Phobos Captain bores me with his backfield sleepaway camp, so probably a Librarian and a Reiver LT to plug holes and provide that sweet Terror Troops debuff.

 

I know around here im going to have to come up with a solution to Heavy Intercessors parked in ruins, and im not sure Phobos units have anything to do that, and nothing HQs can add either.

[ShinyRhino]

Unfortunately it doesn't work any more to use SftS on two Lieutenants (if it ever did). They've changed a bit in this codex. Previously, you bought 1-2 off the same datasheet. Now, if you buy one you're allowed a second that doesn't use a slot, but it's definitely a separate unit and datasheet. This is mainly good news as it lets you pick different guys, but it'll clearly cost you 2CPs to do SftS on them, as they are separate units. Sorry.

 

Having said all that, I think a Reiver lieutenant is a really interesting option for Ravenguard. He's a good candidate to be your MoA and his terror troops strat can switch off obsec from enemy units. I'd be tempted to run him and something like 10 assault intercessors together. It's a great way to steal enemy objectives, at least for a while. The enemy will probably get rid of your guys but hopefully by that time you'll have done some damage. If you stick the armour indomitus on the LT he'd be a pain to get rid of. You could potentially make this guy your Warlord so he could have the trait that makes nearby units of yours obsec. Send him with some flamer aggressors instead of the intercessors and have fun.

Ahhhhhh. I love that Reiver LT idea. It's a neat way to counter Heavy Intercessors. Shut off their obsec and take an objective from them with your own obsec-via-WLT models.

[Mandragola]

 

Unfortunately it doesn't work any more to use SftS on two Lieutenants (if it ever did). They've changed a bit in this codex. Previously, you bought 1-2 off the same datasheet. Now, if you buy one you're allowed a second that doesn't use a slot, but it's definitely a separate unit and datasheet. This is mainly good news as it lets you pick different guys, but it'll clearly cost you 2CPs to do SftS on them, as they are separate units. Sorry.

 

Having said all that, I think a Reiver lieutenant is a really interesting option for Ravenguard. He's a good candidate to be your MoA and his terror troops strat can switch off obsec from enemy units. I'd be tempted to run him and something like 10 assault intercessors together. It's a great way to steal enemy objectives, at least for a while. The enemy will probably get rid of your guys but hopefully by that time you'll have done some damage. If you stick the armour indomitus on the LT he'd be a pain to get rid of. You could potentially make this guy your Warlord so he could have the trait that makes nearby units of yours obsec. Send him with some flamer aggressors instead of the intercessors and have fun.

Ahhhhhh. I love that Reiver LT idea. It's a neat way to counter Heavy Intercessors. Shut off their obsec and take an objective from them with your own obsec-via-WLT models.

Thanks. Unfortunately there's the downside that the Reiver LT and his friends are entirely harmless. Their D1 weapons are especially useless against gravis units, which can get a 2+ save against them through a strat. You can shut down the heavy intercessors for a while, but nothing will die on either side. Sooner or later some enemy bladeguard or something will turn up and things will go very wrong, very fast.

 

That said, I do respect the attempt at an all-phobos army. Good luck with it. Personally I think Ravenguard are a great army to actually use heavy intercessors, since it'll be a proper pain trying to get them out of cover at range.

[Dracos]

Phobos HQ won’t help much regardless who you pick when it comes to shifting Gravis style units. The Invictors would be your best bet there maybe so Master of Ambush a Primaris Techmarine. He’s not Phobos and neither is the Chaplain or Apothecary but in my head canon when they have the Master of Ambush trait I autofile them as having been part of a Phobos squad at some point during their career

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

Here's my current "theory" list I am working on, in terms of leadership:

 

Primaris Chaplain on Bike- Swift and Deadly WLT + Vox Espiritum Relic 

Shrike (I think for his current cost he's a great value for access to the CM buff and his Aura is legit)

Primaris Apothecary  - Upgraded to Chief Apothecary - Warlord (Selfless Healer) + Master of the Tri-Fold Path: Master of Ambush

 

I intend to MoA the Apothecary with a unit of 5 or 6 Boltstorm Aggressors

Im going to run 1-2 large units of Vanguard Vets with a mix of Twin LC and LC+SS - Chaplain + Shrike will hang with these boys

 

I'm also considering running 2 LTs for the 3rd HQ - One Reiver with Oppressor's End and the other Primaris LT with Ex Tenebris

OR

Phobos LT

OR

2nd Chaplain in Slaplain configuration

[Jacques Corbin]

Primaris Techmarine for me. Give him MoA and bring along Assault Intercessors, and deploy them right next to an Invictor Warsuit. Not only can he repair the Warsuit for d3 every turn, but he can also use Awaken Machine Spirits to grant it +1 to hit. Imagine all those guns hitting on 2+ first turn, or hitting on 3+ when it is very damaged.

[Alcyon]

Not sure what your WLT spread is, but the CoA typically only runs one WLT (Selfless healer) to heal a 2nd model from a 2nd unit.

 

I believe you could safely let that go if you needed to, and the baked in FNP, plus existing heal/rez capability is worth considering.

 

Oh yeah, I suppose he's better now that you don't have to spend one WLT on Father of the Future. Still, for crusade a unit only needs to gain one rank to get a 6+++. I'll take a look at what other traits my Aggressors could pick up and maybe consider running the Apothecary as my MoA since he doesn't need a Psychic phase to grant his buffs whereas the Librarian does. Thanks for the pointing that out!

 

Having said all that, I think a Reiver lieutenant is a really interesting option for Ravenguard. He's a good candidate to be your MoA and his terror troops strat can switch off obsec from enemy units. I'd be tempted to run him and something like 10 assault intercessors together. It's a great way to steal enemy objectives, at least for a while. The enemy will probably get rid of your guys but hopefully by that time you'll have done some damage. If you stick the armour indomitus on the LT he'd be a pain to get rid of. You could potentially make this guy your Warlord so he could have the trait that makes nearby units of yours obsec. Send him with some flamer aggressors instead of the intercessors and have fun.

I think this would be a great combo with Bladeguard though the fact that you can do it with an Ancient granting them +1 to hit seems better than re-roll 1s to wound. Either way gaining ObSec or denying ObSec you're still putting down a pretty small unit size, so I can see why Assault Intercessors might appeal. On the other hand Aggressors are just so much hardier especially with the new +1 to save stratagem.

 

Primaris Techmarine for me. Give him MoA and bring along Assault Intercessors, and deploy them right next to an Invictor Warsuit. Not only can he repair the Warsuit for d3 every turn, but he can also use Awaken Machine Spirits to grant it +1 to hit. Imagine all those guns hitting on 2+ first turn, or hitting on 3+ when it is very damaged.

 

I love my Invictor but I don't know if its enough value to give its guns +1 to hit. It's almost all anti-infantry fire and in such quantity it can't help but kill a ton of GEQ even without re-rolls. I do like the idea of being able to better support it with a MoA pair though, and the Techmarine is no slouch himself. Now I'll have to pre-order that model as well, damn you Jacques Corbin!

[Mandragola]

I'm not sure what the best unit is to use MoA on. Aggressors are great because they do a lot of damage in shooting and melee. They come in fairly small units though. You probably don't need to bring the LT to cancel obsec, given that they'll probably just kill any troops nearby.

 

The really powerful trick is to cancel the enemy's obsec near an objective, while being obsec yourself. That way it doesn't matter how many models you've both got nearby. That's why I like the assault intercessors for this job, or giving the LT two warlord traits so he's got an obsec aura. I quite like shrike though, and having him not be Warlord seems a bit wrong.

 

The best answer is probably to bring options. Bladeguard, Aggressors and Assault Intercessors are all great units. You can take all three and decide which one to ambush with once you've seen the mission, opponent and when you know who's going first.

 

Assault Terminators are probably also worth considering. You can potentially bring 10 of them, which is a massive unit to ambush. I like the idea that the lieutenant sneaks up and puts down a teleport homer, so they appear right before the battle starts. It's a bit funny how it seems to make sense to mostly bring big chunky things like Gravis, Terminators and Centurions for Ravenguard, rather than the scouts and phobos units that "should" make sense for them to have.

 

On that note, one thing someone pointed out in another thread is that the infiltrator comms array now works with any phobos unit with rites of battle or tactical precision. This means that Shrike now gives infiltrators rerolls to hit anywhere on the board, so long as they've got the 5 point upgrade. This seems like a nice option to have if you're taking Shrike and a Reiver LT. Not sure if it's enough to make me want infiltrators instead of one of the many other great troop options, but it certainly helps.

[Dracos]

Actually given his history, having Shrike not be your Warlord makes perfect sense. Even in fluff as a Captain he would go off as a one man special forces unit. Having him babysit Plasma Inceptors for a Turn then slide off with that movement of his and do what needs done elsewhere is perfect. It’s definitely not the Hammer other Chapter Masters are.

 

It’s my opinion and I find it encouraging most of us in the Spire see the Reiver Lt as a tertiary choice as an HQ. He has value with a specific plan and a specific build but not the most effective take all comers list. I will share an experience from my last two games that is an example of this:

 

Orks: 30 Bois and a WarBoss sat on my opponents home objective. I brought Shrike and 2 units of Bolter Inceptors down and cleaned the Objective off. Didn’t even need to use Shrike to take out the Boss. Even a large horde is manageable with the tools of the Astartes. You could easily replace the Inceptors with SftS or MoA Aggressors for similar activity. No Reiver Lt needed.

 

Necrons: my opponent had the ObSec trait for his army so Warriors were double ObSec. I immediately noted this unit for couple reasons. The new rule for RP makes them durable as old nails and this was a 20 man unit. No way Inceptors or Aggresors were going to chew through that unit fast enough to be effective. Even with the Reiver Lt. 20 Warriors was going to take more effort that they were worth for one Objective. Reiver Lt ineffective in this case.

 

I’m not saying he doesn’t have a place in some builds, some situations. Just that he is a third level choice for most of us.

[Mandragola]

That's interesting. I'd have thought he would be perfect against the warriors though. I think he'd cancel both of their causes of being obsec and allow something like assault intercessors to grab the objective. The intercessors would take all day to kill the warriors, but they wouldn't have much to fear from the return attacks either.

 

You're right though that he's at best the 3rd HQ I'd take. Some kind of captain, a chaplain and a librarian could all take precedence.

 

As for Shrike, I quite like his warlord trait. There are units like aggressors that can be dangerous to charge so it's great to have a tool to shut off overwatch. Actually the Reiver LT can do the same thing with a strat.

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

That's interesting. I'd have thought he would be perfect against the warriors though. I think he'd cancel both of their causes of being obsec and allow something like assault intercessors to grab the objective. The intercessors would take all day to kill the warriors, but they wouldn't have much to fear from the return attacks either.

 

You're right though that he's at best the 3rd HQ I'd take. Some kind of captain, a chaplain and a librarian could all take precedence.

 

As for Shrike, I quite like his warlord trait. There are units like aggressors that can be dangerous to charge so it's great to have a tool to shut off overwatch. Actually the Reiver LT can do the same thing with a strat.

 

I think that's the beauty of the Reiver LT - he offers a lot of utility options that you CAN use, but you dont have to, and for an affordable package. 75 points is pretty cheap, and when you give him Oppressor's End he becomes quite a legitimate character hunter. Shock Grenades and Terror Troops, when applied in the clutch can be devastating.

 

At the end of the day though, he might not be as valuable as the alternatives. I converted mind into a Smash Captain, so I need to buy another if I want to test him 

[ShinyRhino]

I've not bought any of the individual HQ Primaris models yet, so I'm limited to what came in the box sets (Dark Imperium, Shadowspear, Indomitus, and the Lieutenant from Wake the Dead).

 

If my all Phobos plan doesn't pan out (and we all know it won't lol), I'm thinking a Chapter Master in Gravis with the Angel Artifice relic and Iron Resolve Warlord Trait would be tons of fun. Toughness 6, 9 Wounds, 2+/4+/6++. MoA (via another character with a WLT) that guy close to enemy lines and go nuts.

Edited October 21, 2020 by ShinyRhino

[Mandragola]

 

That's interesting. I'd have thought he would be perfect against the warriors though. I think he'd cancel both of their causes of being obsec and allow something like assault intercessors to grab the objective. The intercessors would take all day to kill the warriors, but they wouldn't have much to fear from the return attacks either.

 

You're right though that he's at best the 3rd HQ I'd take. Some kind of captain, a chaplain and a librarian could all take precedence.

 

As for Shrike, I quite like his warlord trait. There are units like aggressors that can be dangerous to charge so it's great to have a tool to shut off overwatch. Actually the Reiver LT can do the same thing with a strat.

 

I think that's the beauty of the Reiver LT - he offers a lot of utility options that you CAN use, but you dont have to, and for an affordable package. 75 points is pretty cheap, and when you give him Oppressor's End he becomes quite a legitimate character hunter. Shock Grenades and Terror Troops, when applied in the clutch can be devastating.

 

At the end of the day though, he might not be as valuable as the alternatives. I converted mind into a Smash Captain, so I need to buy another if I want to test him 

I've built myself a Lieutenant out of one of my many spare Reivers. Haven't finished him - he needs some filling and there are some ugly mould lines on there still, but I quite like the pose. I think it's quite cool to have a guy who sneaks into battle with just a knife in his hand. You could give him Oppressor's End, Pergatorus or just nothing. Nothing might be a good option so he can just advance around to where he's needed. If he's turning up with a bunch of hammernators, aggressors, bladeguard or whatever, they'll be doing the work for him.