Vanguard veterans questions

[Weaverman]

Hi new player with some questions.

 

If I have a unit of vanguard veterans with different weapon load outs I just wanted to understand how attacks & wounds are allocated.

 

Say I have a unit of 6, 2 with claw & storm shield & 3 with double claw and sarg TH & storm shield.

 

If I get hit with ranged attacks or close combat can I choose who the attacks go on? (Ie put them on storm shield guys)

 

Does this change if there were more wounds than models also? I can’t see anywhere where it states each model must be allocated a wound.

 

Thank you

[BluejayJunior]

Read the core rules for Making an Attack. It will walk you through how to allocate wounds. Remember, the rules assume that each attack is performed one at a time. We just roll them all at once to speed things up. 

The defender is the one who assigns allocates wounds. Once a wound is allocated to a model, all attacks must be allocated to them for the rest of the phase, until the model is destroyed before moving on to the next one. 

Edited October 21, 2020 by BluejayJunior

[Weaverman]

Thanks that’s all I needed to know, no need to equip the whole squad with storm shields then, just a couple will do and the rest can have two weapons each for more smash.

[Medicinal Carrots]

A few tips:

 

Due to the way wound allocation works, you want storm shields on your least valuable models first. You want the Sgt to die last, so you will be allocating wounds to the rest of the squad before him, and a storm shield on him won't do anything until the rest of the squad is dead. This also means you have diminishing returns. The more storm shields you have, the less each additional shield will do for you. I usually like having 40-50% of the squad with shields.

 

For dual weapons, you get the most damage from primary weapon + lightning claw (e.g. two claws, hammer and claw, etc). However, you get the most point efficiency from primary weapon + chainsword. Two claws will do more damage, but one claw and a chainsword will do more damage per point spent on the model. This means that an extra weapon claw is a good spot to spend leftover points or fill out an uneven point value (going from points ending in 2 or 7 to a multiple of 5), but your usually better off taking a chainsword for the 2nd weapon and spending points elsewhere if you have the option.

 

On weapon selection, the lightning claw is the hands down best choice for 1 damage weapons. Multiple damage weapons get a bit trickier. If you can get +1S or +1 to wound (like charging Blood Angels), the Relic Blade is probably your best choice. Otherwise, a Relic Blade is better against T3 and T5-6, and equivalent to a fist against T7 (3+ to hit 4+ to wound = 4+ to hit and 3+ to wound). Between fists and hammers, fists do better against 2 and 4 wound models, with hammers being better against 3 and 5+ wound models. If you don't have some boost to S or to wound, I think the choice of which is best mostly comes down to how many points you haveavailable.

Edited October 21, 2020 by Medicinal Carrots

[Commander Nicky]

A few tips:

 

Due to the way wound allocation works, you want storm shields on your least valuable models first. You want the Sgt to die last, so you will be allocating wounds to the rest of the squad before him, and a storm shield on him won't do anything until the rest of the squad is dead. This also means you have diminishing returns. The more storm shields you have, the less each additional shield will do for you. I usually like having 40-50% of the squad with shields.

 

For dual weapons, you get the most damage from primary weapon + lightning claw (e.g. two claws, hammer and claw, etc). However, you get the most point efficiency from primary weapon + chainsword. Two claws will do more damage, but one claw and a chainsword will do more damage per point spent on the model. This means that an extra weapon claw is a good spot to spend leftover points or fill out an uneven point value (going from points ending in 2 or 7 to a multiple of 5), but your usually better off taking a chainsword for the 2nd weapon and spending points elsewhere if you have the option.

 

On weapon selection, the lightning claw is the hands down best choice for 1 damage weapons. Multiple damage weapons get a bit trickier. If you can get +1S or +1 to wound (like charging Blood Angels), the Relic Blade is probably your best choice. Otherwise, a Relic Blade is better against T3 and T5-6, and equivalent to a fist against T7 (3+ to hit 4+ to wound = 4+ to hit and 3+ to wound). Between fists and hammers, fists do better against 2 and 4 wound models, with hammers being better against 3 and 5+ wound models. If you don't have some boost to S or to wound, I think the choice of which is best mostly comes down to how many points you haveavailable.

How is one lightning claws better than a power axe for 1 damage weapons? They have equal amount of ap, the lightning claw makes you re-roll failed wound rolls but the power axe does +2 S which should increase it effectiveness againts anything with a T 4 or less and make it more reliable to wound the higher the Toughness gets... I don't have the matematics to justify it, but just by a glare at it, I would say that an power axe is more flexible againts a various of different foes...

[Mandragola]

 

A few tips:

 

Due to the way wound allocation works, you want storm shields on your least valuable models first. You want the Sgt to die last, so you will be allocating wounds to the rest of the squad before him, and a storm shield on him won't do anything until the rest of the squad is dead. This also means you have diminishing returns. The more storm shields you have, the less each additional shield will do for you. I usually like having 40-50% of the squad with shields.

 

For dual weapons, you get the most damage from primary weapon + lightning claw (e.g. two claws, hammer and claw, etc). However, you get the most point efficiency from primary weapon + chainsword. Two claws will do more damage, but one claw and a chainsword will do more damage per point spent on the model. This means that an extra weapon claw is a good spot to spend leftover points or fill out an uneven point value (going from points ending in 2 or 7 to a multiple of 5), but your usually better off taking a chainsword for the 2nd weapon and spending points elsewhere if you have the option.

 

On weapon selection, the lightning claw is the hands down best choice for 1 damage weapons. Multiple damage weapons get a bit trickier. If you can get +1S or +1 to wound (like charging Blood Angels), the Relic Blade is probably your best choice. Otherwise, a Relic Blade is better against T3 and T5-6, and equivalent to a fist against T7 (3+ to hit 4+ to wound = 4+ to hit and 3+ to wound). Between fists and hammers, fists do better against 2 and 4 wound models, with hammers being better against 3 and 5+ wound models. If you don't have some boost to S or to wound, I think the choice of which is best mostly comes down to how many points you haveavailable.

How is one lightning claws better than a power axe for 1 damage weapons? They have equal amount of ap, the lightning claw makes you re-roll failed wound rolls but the power axe does +2 S which should increase it effectiveness againts anything with a T 4 or less and make it more reliable to wound the higher the Toughness gets... I don't have the matematics to justify it, but just by a glare at it, I would say that an power axe is more flexible againts a various of different foes...

 

A reroll is almost always better than needing a lower number to wound.

 

Say you're attacking T4. The axe wounds on a 3+, which means that 4 of the 6 results on the dice are a wound. You wound 2 times out of 3, or 66% of the time. The lightning claw wounds on a 4+, so that's 3 out of the 6 results or 50% of the time.

 

However the reroll for the claw means that if you don't wound then 50% of the time you'll reroll and wound after all. So you have the original 50% chance plus 50% of the 50% where you failed - an extra 25%. Total chance to wound is 75%.

 

The relative chances change depending on the target's toughness but the claw is better all the way up to T7. From T8 and above the axe has a very slight advantage, because wounding on a 5+ is better than needing a 6 with a reroll.

 

The axe can sometimes be better if you get rerolls to wound from some other source. Against T3 with a lieutenant nearby an axe has a very high chance to wound... though the claw still wounds 8 times out of 9 in that situation.

 

On the other hand, the claw benefits more from bonuses to wound, like you get for charging blood angels or white scars near Khan.

 

And of course the claw gives you a bonus attack. So not only are your attacks better, you also have more of them. This changes the claw from having a slight advantage to having a really really big advantage over the axe.

[Minsc]

 

A few tips:

 

Due to the way wound allocation works, you want storm shields on your least valuable models first. You want the Sgt to die last, so you will be allocating wounds to the rest of the squad before him, and a storm shield on him won't do anything until the rest of the squad is dead. This also means you have diminishing returns. The more storm shields you have, the less each additional shield will do for you. I usually like having 40-50% of the squad with shields.

 

For dual weapons, you get the most damage from primary weapon + lightning claw (e.g. two claws, hammer and claw, etc). However, you get the most point efficiency from primary weapon + chainsword. Two claws will do more damage, but one claw and a chainsword will do more damage per point spent on the model. This means that an extra weapon claw is a good spot to spend leftover points or fill out an uneven point value (going from points ending in 2 or 7 to a multiple of 5), but your usually better off taking a chainsword for the 2nd weapon and spending points elsewhere if you have the option.

 

On weapon selection, the lightning claw is the hands down best choice for 1 damage weapons. Multiple damage weapons get a bit trickier. If you can get +1S or +1 to wound (like charging Blood Angels), the Relic Blade is probably your best choice. Otherwise, a Relic Blade is better against T3 and T5-6, and equivalent to a fist against T7 (3+ to hit 4+ to wound = 4+ to hit and 3+ to wound). Between fists and hammers, fists do better against 2 and 4 wound models, with hammers being better against 3 and 5+ wound models. If you don't have some boost to S or to wound, I think the choice of which is best mostly comes down to how many points you haveavailable.

How is one lightning claws better than a power axe for 1 damage weapons? They have equal amount of ap, the lightning claw makes you re-roll failed wound rolls but the power axe does +2 S which should increase it effectiveness againts anything with a T 4 or less and make it more reliable to wound the higher the Toughness gets... I don't have the matematics to justify it, but just by a glare at it, I would say that an power axe is more flexible againts a various of different foes...

 

You get +1 A from the Lightning Claw as well.

 

People have done math on it, and the Claw is better than Power Swords/Axes/Maces against pretty much everything. 

 

[Commander Nicky]

 

 

A few tips:

 

Due to the way wound allocation works, you want storm shields on your least valuable models first. You want the Sgt to die last, so you will be allocating wounds to the rest of the squad before him, and a storm shield on him won't do anything until the rest of the squad is dead. This also means you have diminishing returns. The more storm shields you have, the less each additional shield will do for you. I usually like having 40-50% of the squad with shields.

 

For dual weapons, you get the most damage from primary weapon + lightning claw (e.g. two claws, hammer and claw, etc). However, you get the most point efficiency from primary weapon + chainsword. Two claws will do more damage, but one claw and a chainsword will do more damage per point spent on the model. This means that an extra weapon claw is a good spot to spend leftover points or fill out an uneven point value (going from points ending in 2 or 7 to a multiple of 5), but your usually better off taking a chainsword for the 2nd weapon and spending points elsewhere if you have the option.

 

On weapon selection, the lightning claw is the hands down best choice for 1 damage weapons. Multiple damage weapons get a bit trickier. If you can get +1S or +1 to wound (like charging Blood Angels), the Relic Blade is probably your best choice. Otherwise, a Relic Blade is better against T3 and T5-6, and equivalent to a fist against T7 (3+ to hit 4+ to wound = 4+ to hit and 3+ to wound). Between fists and hammers, fists do better against 2 and 4 wound models, with hammers being better against 3 and 5+ wound models. If you don't have some boost to S or to wound, I think the choice of which is best mostly comes down to how many points you haveavailable.

How is one lightning claws better than a power axe for 1 damage weapons? They have equal amount of ap, the lightning claw makes you re-roll failed wound rolls but the power axe does +2 S which should increase it effectiveness againts anything with a T 4 or less and make it more reliable to wound the higher the Toughness gets... I don't have the matematics to justify it, but just by a glare at it, I would say that an power axe is more flexible againts a various of different foes...

 

A reroll is almost always better than needing a lower number to wound.

 

Say you're attacking T4. The axe wounds on a 3+, which means that 4 of the 6 results on the dice are a wound. You wound 2 times out of 3, or 66% of the time. The lightning claw wounds on a 4+, so that's 3 out of the 6 results or 50% of the time.

 

However the reroll for the claw means that if you don't wound then 50% of the time you'll reroll and wound after all. So you have the original 50% chance plus 50% of the 50% where you failed - an extra 25%. Total chance to wound is 75%.

 

The relative chances change depending on the target's toughness but the claw is better all the way up to T7. From T8 and above the axe has a very slight advantage, because wounding on a 5+ is better than needing a 6 with a reroll.

 

The axe can sometimes be better if you get rerolls to wound from some other source. Against T3 with a lieutenant nearby an axe has a very high chance to wound... though the claw still wounds 8 times out of 9 in that situation.

 

On the other hand, the claw benefits more from bonuses to wound, like you get for charging blood angels or white scars near Khan.

 

And of course the claw gives you a bonus attack. So not only are your attacks better, you also have more of them. This changes the claw from having a slight advantage to having a really really big advantage over the axe.

 

I was under the expression that an axe is +2 S not +1 S... But on the other hand the +1A deffinate makes a difference... Thanks Mandragola

Edited October 22, 2020 by Commander Nicky

[Mandragola]

 

 

 

 

 

 

I was under the expression that an axe is +2 S not +1 S... But on the other hand the +1A deffinate makes a difference... Thanks Mandragola

The axe is +2 strength. S6 wounds T4 on a 3+. There's actually a consensus that a power sword, at S+1 (S5 on marines) is generally better than an axe. It still wounds other T4 models on a 3+ and anything in the game on no worse than a 5+, but it has better AP. The axe is only better against T3 or T6 models.

[Irbis]

For dual weapons, you get the most damage from primary weapon + lightning claw (e.g. two claws, hammer and claw, etc). However, you get the most point efficiency from primary weapon + chainsword. Two claws will do more damage, but one claw and a chainsword will do more damage per point spent on the model. This means that an extra weapon claw is a good spot to spend leftover points or fill out an uneven point value (going from points ending in 2 or 7 to a multiple of 5), but your usually better off taking a chainsword for the 2nd weapon and spending points elsewhere if you have the option.

Not really. You get (maybe) "efficiency" against chaff like GEQ or at best orks. Against hard targets VV are supposed to tackle? Extra claw is so much better it's not even funny. Look at the AT video above, two claws are very versatile now, excellent 'take all comers' equipment that can even somewhat threaten stuff they couldn't touch before. Really, the only time I'd take a chainsword is when there are not enough points left in the list or on token last model in squad that would be designated first casualty.

[Commander Nicky]

I have a question about the effecticness of a VV squad's loadout... So far I have given them JPs and each of them a lightning claw, 3 of them are armed with storm shields, 1 are armed with an additional lightning claw, 1 a power fist and the srg. a relic blade. They are suppose to be WS successor and have hungry for Battle chapter tactics... They are suppose to arrive with reserves... They cost 153 pts and are suppose to be as flexible as possible, but are the loadout pointwise and cost effective? Any thoughts?

[Mandragola]

 

For dual weapons, you get the most damage from primary weapon + lightning claw (e.g. two claws, hammer and claw, etc). However, you get the most point efficiency from primary weapon + chainsword. Two claws will do more damage, but one claw and a chainsword will do more damage per point spent on the model. This means that an extra weapon claw is a good spot to spend leftover points or fill out an uneven point value (going from points ending in 2 or 7 to a multiple of 5), but your usually better off taking a chainsword for the 2nd weapon and spending points elsewhere if you have the option.

Not really. You get (maybe) "efficiency" against chaff like GEQ or at best orks. Against hard targets VV are supposed to tackle? Extra claw is so much better it's not even funny. Look at the AT video above, two claws are very versatile now, excellent 'take all comers' equipment that can even somewhat threaten stuff they couldn't touch before. Really, the only time I'd take a chainsword is when there are not enough points left in the list or on token last model in squad that would be designated first casualty.

Personally I think 3 points is a good deal for 4 claw attacks on the charge. I don't think it's a good deal for 1 claw attack.

 

For me it'll be shields all round. Claws on most guys and maybe the occasional other thing, like possibly a hammer on the Sergeant. VVs get 12 point thunder hammers, which compares pretty well with 8 points for a fist. Anything they're hitting with 2 wounds will already be suffering against the claws but the hammer is good against stuff like Gravis.

 

Getting hold of a load of lightning claws is a bit of a challenge. I've just built Shrike and I think I might try and partially replicate his version. I think I'll be able to make something passable. Tbh it's not very high up my hobby queue.

[Medicinal Carrots]

 

For dual weapons, you get the most damage from primary weapon + lightning claw (e.g. two claws, hammer and claw, etc). However, you get the most point efficiency from primary weapon + chainsword. Two claws will do more damage, but one claw and a chainsword will do more damage per point spent on the model. This means that an extra weapon claw is a good spot to spend leftover points or fill out an uneven point value (going from points ending in 2 or 7 to a multiple of 5), but your usually better off taking a chainsword for the 2nd weapon and spending points elsewhere if you have the option.

Not really. You get (maybe) "efficiency" against chaff like GEQ or at best orks. Against hard targets VV are supposed to tackle? Extra claw is so much better it's not even funny. Look at the AT video above, two claws are very versatile now, excellent 'take all comers' equipment that can even somewhat threaten stuff they couldn't touch before. Really, the only time I'd take a chainsword is when there are not enough points left in the list or on token last model in squad that would be designated first casualty.

 

Hmm, you're right. Not sure what I screwed up there the first time around. Just re-ran the math for a VV sargeant. Dual claws are more point efficient than claw+sword against any target. As mentioned in the video, claw+sword isn't off by that much, though.

[Weaverman]

Really interesting points, I think the vanguard veterans are amazing and can fill so many roles.

 

I haven’t seen anyone mention the heavy thunder hammer for 15 points, surely this is the best option for the sargeant.

 

It has an extra pip of AP and will be AP4 in assault doctrine and flat 4 damage, this will wreck monsters and vehicles, I really like dual claws and some claws and storm shields to effectively give the unit a 2+ save. The unit will be very tough to get through especially salamanders with ignore -1AP

 

The unit is a tackle anything fast unit, kills hordes and big things. I math hammered 6 & 7 man units and they will one round a 12w 3+ armour monster, even the claws help a lot with re-roll wounds and good AP

 

Currently building 3 boxes up and will attempt to magnetise some of the left arms, all right arms 100% lightning claws apart from the sarg heavy thunder hammers.

Edited October 23, 2020 by Weaverman

[Medicinal Carrots]

The heavy thunder hammer is great, but unfortunately it's Deathwatch only.

[Weaverman]

Oh I didn’t see that, where does it say that?

 

It even has heavy thunder hammer in the data sheet for vanguard vets

Edited October 23, 2020 by Weaverman

[Medicinal Carrots]

In the datasheet, Wargear Options, 3rd bullet point. The line that gives the option for it is what restricts it.

[Weaverman]

Thank you medicinal carrots, I completely missed that.

Standard thunder hammer it is then.

[tentagil]

I'm currently contemplating building out a squad of VVs bashing together some Primaris bodies with older marine bits. Just not a fan of the look of old marines next to Primaris, the size and scale difference bugs me. I've got an extra unbuilt squad of Infiltrators I could use, or might wait and order a set of the new Assault Intercessors when they come out as I think their armor and poses would look better for a jump pack squad of VVs.

 

Looking at probably 2 with thunder hammer and shield, then the rest with dual lightning claw. Though might up the number with hammer and shield.