Is 9th Edition the 'Tournament Edition'?

[NemFX]

"You fool, I play my trap card!" .. Honestly, it feels like there's too much back and forth stuff. Maybe it's cause I started in 2nd edition, and the overall strategy was "I have an army, you have an army, let's fight!" but yeah, it just feels like there's a lot of bloat now. The universal special rules were way better, because you had to learn like.. a dozen? or so rules. That was about it. As much as I like complexity, I just find the older rules are much easier for actually playing the game, whereas now most of the people here playing have no idea if they are doing it right anymore. Most games in 8th and 9th ended with people arguing over the rules.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

 

The games I’ve played so far are much faster.

 

Good to know - did you find a particular aspect that has been sped up by 9th? Less random damage for me seems to be the only real speed up (e.g. powerfists, encarmine blades).

 

One thing it seems there are less shenanigans for now, so less time towards which did add time. Also there’s less rerolls so there’s that too. And of course there’s only five turns and some games are effectively over by the end of the third turn.

[mughi3]

"You fool, I play my trap card!" .. Honestly, it feels like there's too much back and forth stuff. Maybe it's cause I started in 2nd edition, and the overall strategy was "I have an army, you have an army, let's fight!" but yeah, it just feels like there's a lot of bloat now. The universal special rules were way better, because you had to learn like.. a dozen? or so rules. That was about it. As much as I like complexity, I just find the older rules are much easier for actually playing the game, whereas now most of the people here playing have no idea if they are doing it right anymore. Most games in 8th and 9th ended with people arguing over the rules.

 

Yep 5th has 2 1/2 pages of USRs for a total of 22 that apply to all armies in the game. instead of 20+ stratagems for every single faction. much easier to keep track of. especially when special rules are built in, simple, uniquely limited to specific units and clearly noted in their entry. like dire avengers bladestorm ability. 

[Captain Idaho]

 

The games I’ve played so far are much faster.

 

Good to know - did you find a particular aspect that has been sped up by 9th? Less random damage for me seems to be the only real speed up (e.g. powerfists, encarmine blades).

It's a funny thing. I find 9th faster to play than 8th but with heavy caveats:

 

Both players need to know the rules tightly. This includes their own army books. If a player flicks through their Strategums every turn it'll take forever.

 

There's also plenty of book keeping involved which is difficult if you're a new player.

 

The actual mechanics are fairly smooth and work well.

 

The worst thing though is setting up for a game at the beginning of the experience. If you're not familiar with them, selecting Secondaries is difficult to know before every game and can really slow things down.

 

Overall I love the edition. Secondaries are crucial to balance it, because otherwise it's just a case of killhammer which is boring.

Edited October 29, 2020 by Captain Idaho

[Dark Shepherd]

Theres definitely a huge margin for error/cheating when it comes to knowing both your own and your opponents rules

[Xenith]

So basically delete stratagems and it's a perfect edition? I find this is where people seem to make mistakes. I've been watching a lot of battle reports the last few days to try and get my head around 9th, and the people who I would think should know/love the game the most (enough to have a business/YT channel dedicated to 40k) still don't know unit names, what stratagems do, unit rules, etc.

 

Why is that? There's just too much to learn for a causal player?

Edited October 29, 2020 by Xenith

[Rogue]

I agree that the set-up can be a bit of a quest at times. There have been times when getting to turn one feels like the halfway point of the game.

 

I think I must be missing something when it comes to book-keeping. We keep dice on convenient scenery to mark the turns and CPs, have a bit of paper for noting primaries, secondaries and points, and track wounds and casualties with different coloured dice next to the relevant units. None of it takes long, and tends to just happen as the game is progressing (just as it has in previous editions).

[Captain Idaho]

I quite like Strategums. Adds a of complexity and powerful combinations can be created without them being auto includes every game.

[Rik Lightstar]

The Stratagem Cards definitely make life easier, you can pull out the ones you can use before the game and only have to refer to those.

 

A set of cards for the Secondary objectives would be great. I'd also like to see them do the missions as cards in the AoS Datacard size, side A could be the map and side B the victory conditions etc.

 

Also, continued diatribes about "why I love 5th edition best" are way off topic and not very constructiv.

 

Rik

[Marshal Rohr]

GW is expanding event organizing staff right now On their careers page so I’d imagine they’re looking to take a more direct role in big events. If that will be purely tournament focused or include narrative events like the NEO stuff for AoS remains to be seen.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

So basically delete stratagems and it's a perfect edition? I find this is where people seem to make mistakes. I've been watching a lot of battle reports the last few days to try and get my head around 9th, and the people who I would think should know/love the game the most (enough to have a business/YT channel dedicated to 40k) still don't know unit names, what stratagems do, unit rules, etc.

 

Why is that? There's just too much to learn for a causal player?

You should look at the channels history and see how many different armies they use per player. I have 3 armies my wolves who are my primary force, my eldar (which were my first real army), and a smaller thousand son force. When I play my wolves I'm much better at remembering all my unit rules and stratagems. It's just tough to get the reps in with multiple forces in a game that takes as long as 40k has.

 

That said I don't think they'd get near as many views if they stuck with just their primary armies. So they're willing to play armies they aren't super familiar with for our entertainment which I respect.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

 

"You fool, I play my trap card!" .. Honestly, it feels like there's too much back and forth stuff. Maybe it's cause I started in 2nd edition, and the overall strategy was "I have an army, you have an army, let's fight!" but yeah, it just feels like there's a lot of bloat now. The universal special rules were way better, because you had to learn like.. a dozen? or so rules. That was about it. As much as I like complexity, I just find the older rules are much easier for actually playing the game, whereas now most of the people here playing have no idea if they are doing it right anymore. Most games in 8th and 9th ended with people arguing over the rules.

 

Yep 5th has 2 1/2 pages of USRs for a total of 22 that apply to all armies in the game. instead of 20+ stratagems for every single faction. much easier to keep track of. especially when special rules are built in, simple, uniquely limited to specific units and clearly noted in their entry. like dire avengers bladestorm ability. 

 

dont even try to compare stratagems to the mess that was the special rules, many of which were fodder like soul blaze.

[ThePenitentOne]

For those who don't like secondaries in matched play (and there are quite a few people who fit that description):

 

Play Crusade: something like secondaries exists (agendas) but they tend to reward completion with experience rather than Victory points, so they don't affect who wins or loses as much.

 

What GW should do is find a way to design Crusade events so that people who prefer a Tourney experience but like Crusade rules can have their cake and eat it too.

 

The only time I'll ever play matched again is if I meet an opponent who insists. This is unlikely to happen because my peer group are pen and paper RPG types with a strong sense of "The story is everything, and I'd rather have my character die than do something out of character." I rarely if ever play in public spaces with strangers. For me, Crusade is the game. I want them to keep supporting matched and open as much as they do because it's good for the hobby and because I feel better about spending money on a game that tries so hard to keep everyone happy.

 

But if matched play just up and disappeared over night, it wouldn't affect me personally at all. In solidarity with my battle brothers and sisters, I would Sturm und Drang, shaking my fist at the sky, but my enjoyment of the game would not be impacted in the slightest.

 

I've wanted Crusade since '89. It's really, really nice to finally have it.

[Volt]

I think part of the trouble is just the pain in the arse that is strategems in the book. It'd be a lot easier if GW offered them for free as printouts (or just y'know, had free digital codices like a normal game) so you could just print stratagems out on cards, throw the bad ones in the trash, and just make decks of "stuff I spam every turn" and 'stuff that's useful occasionally".

[Dark Shepherd]

I think part of the trouble is just the pain in the arse that is strategems in the book. It'd be a lot easier if GW offered them for free as printouts (or just y'know, had free digital codices like a normal game) so you could just print stratagems out on cards, throw the bad ones in the trash, and just make decks of "stuff I spam every turn" and 'stuff that's useful occasionally".

Or they could sell them as overpriced datacards....

[Volt]

 

I think part of the trouble is just the pain in the arse that is strategems in the book. It'd be a lot easier if GW offered them for free as printouts (or just y'know, had free digital codices like a normal game) so you could just print stratagems out on cards, throw the bad ones in the trash, and just make decks of "stuff I spam every turn" and 'stuff that's useful occasionally".

Or they could sell them as overpriced datacards....

 

Unfortunately we live in that reality, which also means most people don't have datacards unless they actively go the way to photocopy stratagems and print them out on card paper.

[MegaVolt87]

Even the stratagem cards are useless themselves after just one FAQ and/or CA. Should just be a living PDF to print off so you could also just stick them over the paid ones if you chose to buy the card packs instead.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Honestly I memorize the ones I wanna use .

[chapter master 454]

Want to point out that stratagems are mainly just like unit abilities which were just as open to being mis-remembered or confused with others and effectively this gets doubly confusing with marines since most of our units don't exactly differ exact the ones who wear slightly more bling than the other ("No, those are my vanguard veterans, not my assault marines so they get to charge out of deep strike...wait...no its these ones...hold on one sec").

 

I will say however that stratagems to me don't feel well implemented or used. Often it feels like units fight over "whose turn it is on the console" sort of thing. Would like there to be an element of re-usability for some, like say smokescreen (why can only one tank fire theirs?) or even when we had masterful marksmenship...makes little sense really, both mechanically and fluff-wise. If it were something like say a special grenade, unique ammunition that's rare, etc. then it makes more sense but in this case, a unit just doesn't do the thing because...we only get one "Do the thing" a turn...for some reason like there is a "do the thing" budget.

 

I would also say that in addition to that, there isn't enough differing of rules despite thats the point of them being on datasheets and I notice we are actually SLOWLY trending back towards USR in the codex (Flanking, Teleport Strike, Death from above...HOLD THE GOLDEN THRONE...this is all just deep strike!).

But my opinion may matter little...still not had a single game of 40k ALL YEAR...

[Reskin]

Want to point out that stratagems are mainly just like unit abilities which were just as open to being mis-remembered or confused with others and effectively this gets doubly confusing with marines since most of our units don't exactly differ exact the ones who wear slightly more bling than the other ("No, those are my vanguard veterans, not my assault marines so they get to charge out of deep strike...wait...no its these ones...hold on one sec").

 

I will say however that stratagems to me don't feel well implemented or used. Often it feels like units fight over "whose turn it is on the console" sort of thing. Would like there to be an element of re-usability for some, like say smokescreen (why can only one tank fire theirs?) or even when we had masterful marksmenship...makes little sense really, both mechanically and fluff-wise. If it were something like say a special grenade, unique ammunition that's rare, etc. then it makes more sense but in this case, a unit just doesn't do the thing because...we only get one "Do the thing" a turn...for some reason like there is a "do the thing" budget.

 

I would also say that in addition to that, there isn't enough differing of rules despite thats the point of them being on datasheets and I notice we are actually SLOWLY trending back towards USR in the codex (Flanking, Teleport Strike, Death from above...HOLD THE GOLDEN THRONE...this is all just deep strike!).

But my opinion may matter little...still not had a single game of 40k ALL YEAR...

 

you just need to get a few games in my dude, it's great fun!

[ThePenitentOne]

 

 

I think part of the trouble is just the pain in the arse that is strategems in the book. It'd be a lot easier if GW offered them for free as printouts (or just y'know, had free digital codices like a normal game) so you could just print stratagems out on cards, throw the bad ones in the trash, and just make decks of "stuff I spam every turn" and 'stuff that's useful occasionally".

Or they could sell them as overpriced datacards....

 

Unfortunately we live in that reality, which also means most people don't have datacards unless they actively go the way to photocopy stratagems and print them out on card paper.

 

 

Yeah, I went to a buckstore and got 100 3x5 index cards for a buck, picked the strategems from the book I liked and wrote them out short hand. There were only about 15 that I use regularly, and I didn't slavishly copy the entire text of the original strat. It cost me a dollar and about 40 minutes. Problem solved.