Eradicators: Over Hyped

[Dracos]

Now that I have your attention ;)

 

I was hoping to have a constructive, tactical conversation about these guys. We can’t do anything about their rules or points, so complaining is sort of ... pointless :) What we can do is look at units and tactics that can counter them.

 

They are the bogeyman of early 9th. Which I actually find reassuring. If this is the Castellan Knight of 9e, it seems like we’re all going to be okay by time the new Dexes are out.

 

I don’t think they are a problem, but I play an exclusively infantry list so honestly when they show up they are less effective against my army than say a armored company. It basically turns into Gravis on Gravis crime and then we move on with the game. Which leads me to my most important point. These guys are good at what they do, but what they do good is pretty specific. I’m not going to throw math at you. Goo hammer and others here are much better resources for that. The game isn’t played on a calculator though and there are answers for these guys if you feel they are the “meta” then lets prepare for them.

 

Remember that Smash Captain that everyone says is no good anymore.

How about another what is old is new hotness Grav Dev Squads

Aggressors. Aggressors can always be the answer to any question when delivered properly.

 

Auspex for that pesky squad that’s coming in from Reserve.

 

 

I’m not pretending Eradicators aren’t good. They are really good and maybe they should have gotten the Eliminator treatment and stayed at 3 per squad. There are answers though and I think Ed can help each other find them if we are willing to look for them.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I disagree that smash captains aren’t good any more. Maybe the tactics are a bit different now but they can still be major damage dealers.

[Daynga-Zone]

Eradicators are hard hitting, but they are slow and relatively short ranged. If they’re on the board to start the game you should be able to take them out with longer range firepower. They are still Gravis however and will require a good bit of dedicated shooting. Although they present juicy targets for eradicators, the macro plasma redemptor is a good option for outranging and taking them out from mid board while he helps score Oath of Moment for you. I haven’t personally tried it, but vanguard vets and/or a smash/slash captain seem like great units to move past enemy screens and tie up or destroy eradicators.

 

Dealing with them from reserves is all about screening. Infiltrators are great for this as SM. You can’t prevent them from dropping in and shooting necessarily but you can control where they can come in and what they can shoot. Keep dreads and vehicles further back and/or closer to the mid board until the erads are dealt with. Try and provide invulnerable saves to as many units as possible. The psychic fortress power is great for covering one blob. Bladeguard and company vets are good options for forward storm shield units that can deal with the damage from eradicators better than most.

 

Eradicators are a great unit, I think the idea that everyone should load up on as many as possible or that they make other units unplayable is a bit over the top, but it would be naive of me to say they haven’t had an affect on the meta. They need some tweaks to bring down their efficiency (either a change to total obliteration or a points increase) but there’s plenty of other multi-melta units that are just a touch below them on the power curve.

[Captain Idaho]

Wait until the tournament meta gets hold of Attack Bikes being better than Eradicators... ;)

 

But otherwise I totally agree Eradicators are good but not as overpowered as folk think. Slow movement and lack of forward deployment options outside of Command Point investment really makes the unit a 1 hit wonder.

 

They're good at killing tanks, can take decent sized squads (dubious tactical merit really) and can take a punch, but I really don't think they're broken.

[WrathOfTheLion]

Just wait until those attack bikes and ATVs are running around with 5++/4++ from Jink. Oh that's going to be super fun.

[Hymnblade]

One obvious way to mitigate them is to just not bring vehicles for them to shoot. Marines are actually pretty good at all-infantry lists right now, so that's a solid option for us.

[L30n1d4s]

I think "massed" Invul saves is a way to help deal with them... i.e. say, lots of Intercessors with Psychic Fortress on them.... that 5++ reduces the number of Meta shots that get through by 1/3. 

 

Add in additional debuffs like -1 to Hit (i.e. Dense Terrain, Raven Guard trait, Salamander's Flame Shield power, Tigurius special ability, Smoke Grenades, etc.) for another 16% reduction in effectiveness and, of course, the good old Apothecary for reviving the models that are killed and I think you can begin to really reduce Eradicator's effectiveness, especially since they are built on a (relatively) low number of high quality shots.

[Mandragola]

One obvious way to mitigate them is to just not bring vehicles for them to shoot. Marines are actually pretty good at all-infantry lists right now, so that's a solid option for us.

I think this is a good option for marines. Our tanks are a bit weak right now, due to lacking rerolls. There might be a case for including something like a Gladiator Reaper, particularly in an army like my Crimson Fists, where it'll quite often get +1 to hit for firing at big squads or Iron Warriors. It doesn't seem essential though as we have lots of other sources of dakka.

 

It would be a shame if Eradicators make Dreadnoughts bad though. Right now dreads seem like a pretty good option and duty eternal makes them tough against most stuff... but not Eradicators. I think I'll give my redemptors plasma guns so that if Eradicators turn up I can spam D3 plasma shots at them.

 

There's no denying the enormous firepower Eradicators bring. They're the real deal. Armies like Ravenguard and Deathwatch that can make them deep strike will be pretty scary to go up against. It's not too bad for vehicles that want to hang back and shoot, but anything trying to advance could have real problems. I think they'll; be a big problem for stuff like the Gladiator Valiant and for monsters like greater daemons.

[Dracos]

I just became tired of every Youtube pundit calling them OP and surrounding them with an Aura of Broken Unstoppability.

 

Just wait until those attack bikes and ATVs are running around with 5++/4++ from Jink. Oh that's going to be super fun.

 

For the uninitiated please elaborate. I usually try to avoid Chapter specific abilities outside the particular sub-forum but I think many newer players could benefit from knowing more specifics of how Sgt Jink will protect them from Eradicators. 

[Closet Skeleton]

Wait until the tournament meta gets hold of Attack Bikes being better than Eradicators...

So now everyone agrees with me.

 

Well not really, I think Attack bikes are waiting still on a 5 point nerf on Eradicators before they become blatantly superior.

 

ATVs are good too but are trading on survivability over points efficient offence.

 

 

For the uninitiated please elaborate. I usually try to avoid Chapter specific abilities outside the particular sub-forum but I think many newer players could benefit from knowing more specifics of how Sgt Jink will protect them from Eradicators. 

 

Jink is a 5+ invulnerable save Dark Angels Ravenwing can get. Its not about protecting them from Eradicators its about just being Eradicators but better.

Edited October 23, 2020 by Closet Skeleton

[WrathOfTheLion]

I just became tired of every Youtube pundit calling them OP and surrounding them with an Aura of Broken Unstoppability.

 

Just wait until those attack bikes and ATVs are running around with 5++/4++ from Jink. Oh that's going to be super fun.

 

For the uninitiated please elaborate. I usually try to avoid Chapter specific abilities outside the particular sub-forum but I think many newer players could benefit from knowing more specifics of how Sgt Jink will protect them from Eradicators. 

To add detail, attack bikes, outriders, bikes, land speeders, storm speeders and Invader ATVs all have the Ravenwing keyword. When the DA supplement is released, there will be a rule clause adding the Jink special ability to these units.

 

The Jink special rule gives all units a 5++ invulnerable save, which they lose if they stay still. If they advance, this improves to a 4++. Note that this does mean they will trade away the +1 to hit from the Grim Resolve chapter tactic in most cases, as it and the Inner Circle rule are constructed such that you essentially 'give away' part or all of the chapter tactic to get them. These rules are also only scoped if you take Grim Resolve or Inheritors of the Primarch: Dark Angels, so there is no ability to double dip with custom successor traits.

 

This means MM attack bikes and ATVs will not only be more mobile, but will have rule and strategem support to make them more appealing in that configuration.

 

As for anti-gravis, the Rift Cannon on the Dark Talon will just straight delete gravis infantry, at Heavy D3, blast, Strength 12, doing 3 mortal wounds to anything it successfully wounds.

 

Now in general, I think we'll see more anti-elite infantry units across future codices as well to counter gravis a bit better.

Edited October 23, 2020 by WrathOfTheLion

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

Eradicators price point makes more sense with how aggressively multi-melta were improved. I think the points for MMs should have gone up, they weren't bad enough that they need both a second shot and a damage boost at no additional charge. I think once GW gets a better feel for how the good the updated weapons are we will see updated point costs, and eradicators will be adjusted as well.

[Rik Lightstar]

Lots of people seem to be judging Eradicators on their maximum potential output rather than their realistic average output.

 

With average rolls against a Toughness 8 Target and over 12 inches away they do 7 damage which rises to 11 damage at close range.

 

Against T7 or lower vehicles they go up to 10.5 or 16.5 depending on range.

 

They're brutal against lighter vehicles, but from the 7 or 8 games I've had this is pretty well nor out.

 

Rik

[Medicinal Carrots]

Force them to shoot infantry by screening. They'll each kill about 1 marine per turn in shooting, but that's much better than losing a tank or dreadnought.

 

Engage them in melee. Particularly with hard hitting and/or fast melee. Bike Captains and Vanguard Vets with thunder hammers are ideal. Bladeguard, Terminators, and Aggressors can take care of them if they can get close.

 

Shoot them with heavy weapons. Use your own melta, overcharged plasma, and grav-cannons if you're close. The Whirlwind Scorpius is great at doing this from range, and is excellent at killing other marines as well. Just be sure to screen it.

 

Deny them targets. Avoid bringing vehicles if you can. Hide and screen any indirect fire vehicles you bring. Bring only cheap, disposable transports (pods, rhinos). Dreadnoughts are about the biggest thing you want to put in the line of fire. Contemptors, Ironclads, and Venerables will die about 50% of the time to 1 round of close shooting from 3 Eradicators. Redemptors will most likely live, but will almost assuredly be bracketed. That will still give them a decent chance to get in melee to punch the Eradicators to death.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

Besides the cost of the unit, I've been judging them based on how often they show up in the metawatch articles on goon hammer. They've been in most of the marine lists that have made top 4s since ninth started.

[Mandragola]

Force them to shoot infantry by screening. They'll each kill about 1 marine per turn in shooting, but that's much better than losing a tank or dreadnought.

 

Engage them in melee. Particularly with hard hitting and/or fast melee. Bike Captains and Vanguard Vets with thunder hammers are ideal. Bladeguard, Terminators, and Aggressors can take care of them if they can get close.

 

Shoot them with heavy weapons. Use your own melta, overcharged plasma, and grav-cannons if you're close. The Whirlwind Scorpius is great at doing this from range, and is excellent at killing other marines as well. Just be sure to screen it.

 

Deny them targets. Avoid bringing vehicles if you can. Hide and screen any indirect fire vehicles you bring. Bring only cheap, disposable transports (pods, rhinos). Dreadnoughts are about the biggest thing you want to put in the line of fire. Contemptors, Ironclads, and Venerables will die about 50% of the time to 1 round of close shooting from 3 Eradicators. Redemptors will most likely live, but will almost assuredly be bracketed. That will still give them a decent chance to get in melee to punch the Eradicators to death.

All of these approaches make sense, for those armies that are able to do them. Unfortunately that's not everyone.

 

Marines are fine. No real need to bring vehicles at all, and we mostly use them for support, where they can easily be screened. If eradicators blow up a rhino going forward it's no big deal.

 

But this doesn't apply for everyone. Lots of big units need to get close to have an effect. Things like Greater Daemons don't want to be hiding at the back all the time. Knight armies can't screen all that effectively. The presence of extremely lethal units like Eradicators risks making entire army types essentially obsolete.

 

To be fair, vehicles probably aren't the first army type to suffer this. Hordes are very vulnerable to the amount of dakka that armies like marines can now send out - almost without trying. A green tide list gets massacred by intercessor shooting, before losing to them in melee. 

 

There's basically an across the board dial up of lethality in 40k, of which Eradicators are just one example. Stuff just dies much faster than I've ever known it to. It makes the game a bit odd, and it's not a good thing. There's only so much you can do if half your army dies in a single turn.

[Karhedron]

But this doesn't apply for everyone. Lots of big units need to get close to have an effect. Things like Greater Daemons don't want to be hiding at the back all the time. Knight armies can't screen all that effectively. The presence of extremely lethal units like Eradicators risks making entire army types essentially obsolete.

 

Knights are not too badly off vs Eliminators. The big ones are T8 so 50% of the hits will not even wound. Then there is the Invulnerable save and you can bet that anything targeted by Eradicators will pop RIS to minimise the damage. Even 6 Eradicators will only do 8 wounds on average to a Questoris/Dominus with RIS. A solid hit but not even enough to bracket it unless something else is lending a hand. And since those Eradicators are within 12", you can bet that Knight will come over and tap-dance on them the following turn.

 

Again Daemons have an Invulnerable save which helps lessen the impact of the Eradicators although I do admit that the T7 of the big daemons makes them a bit more vulnerable. I have to say that I don't have too much of a problem with this. I have had Blood Thirsters tear through my lines in the past and normally had to resort to Captain Smash to stop it as shooting was not effective. Now Marines have some shooting that is effective against these big bad threats with the caveat that it is short-ranged and mounted on a fairly slow platform.

 

I don't think Eradicators risk making entire armies obsolete though. Yes they can threaten a greater Daemon but will be drowned by a unit of regular daemons. Knights are tough enough to take a hit on the chin and then hit back. If you are really worried, spend 2CP to get a Patrol of Skitari to screen your Knights, at least enough to keep the Eradicators from coming on within 12". If you end up not facing Eliminators (or other jack-in-the-box units), you can use them to sneak about and take Objectives while the Knights do heavy lifting.

 

It seems to me that the designers are working hard to push the combined-arms approach in 9th edition. Yes you can run an army of Knights but if you don't run some infantry support, you risk being vulnerable to units like Eradicators. The flip side is that Eradicators will struggle to make their points back without big game for them to hunt. Taking too many of them will seriously reduce your anti-infantry capability and you will struggle against hordes. I expect to see 3 in most competitive Marine armies as they are good for their points but I don't expect to see more than 6 as it is just putting too many eggs in the anti-tank basket to my mind.

 

Now if you don't mind, while everyone else frets about Eradicators, I have some MM Attack Bikes I need to finish.

Edited October 24, 2020 by Karhedron

[leth]

I think eradicators in a TAC list won’t be a problem. Anyone who takes too many will put themselves in a very rock/paper/scissors situation at any gathering. I would not include more than 6 in any given list personally. 
 

The issue is where any opportunity for list tailoring comes into play, but that is a “being a dick” issue more than anything else. 

[Dracos]

leth has a super good point. This kind of unit is the anti-thesis of a Knight unit. Knights are a real gateway unit unless you are tailoring to take on high toughness high wound well armored unit.  It doesnt get much more niche. Eradicators are the flip side of the coin. Top shelf versus tough multi wound units but so wasted against most TAC list. 

 

If I could create a unit to spam in a TAC list it would be Gravis Infantry, each with a good old fashion Assault Cannon :)

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I think there’s a lot to say for one five man unit. That’s all I need.

[Debauchery101]

I'll be the odd salamanders, raptors and DW player that owns over 25 of these guys. Their ability to come in from reserves outside of their deployment zone should be removed. Otherwise they're going to get hit with hyper inflation for their cost and they'll get the double tap nerfed..just look at Aggros...the 3 armies I play make them extra dangerous due to chapter tactics or deployment tricks.

 

I do like specialist units but I think GW is doing it wrong with the Primaris.

They could have made hvy intercessors be able to take an eradicator or 2 but also throw in the hvy bolter variants as options. The melta dudes double tap vs vehicles/monsters/buildings and the hvy bolters double tap vs infantry/bikers/calvary

Also gravis armor troops choices...space marines have the most ridiculous tough and varied options for troops choices 5+ different options with 2+ wounds, most lethal melee and ranged options, best transport options. .

Or just let me use my 5 combat squaded DW Eradicators with obsec and deep strike spamming 12 melta shots for under 250 pts

Edited October 25, 2020 by Debauchery101

[Captain Idaho]

I just became tired of every Youtube pundit calling them OP and surrounding them with an Aura of Broken Unstoppability.

 

Not me ;)

 

 

Wait until the tournament meta gets hold of Attack Bikes being better than Eradicators... ;)

 

So now everyone agrees with me.

 

Well not really, I think Attack bikes are waiting still on a 5 point nerf on Eradicators before they become blatantly superior.

 

ATVs are good too but are trading on survivability over points efficient offence.

Not sure Attack Bikes need to wait on a change for Eradicators. They're already nice and cheap for what they do.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

I think the reason Closet Skeleton mentions a 5 point nerf is because eradicators have such a low opportunity cost. Their base cost is fairly comparable to marine troop choices so even if your opponent isn't running vehicles or monsters you have a chance at getting your points back in one shooting phase. I think the attack bikes are strong but it's going to be harder to break even if their desired targets aren't on the battlefield.

[Captain Idaho]

The art of winning 40K is not about units "breaking even". A unit can die every game by turn 2 yet still be a worthwhile investment simply because it soaks attention from so many players.

 

Attack Bikes are fast and can hold objectives nicely if their choice targets aren't on the field. They also have Twin Bolters to assist in finding utility where needed.

 

Sure, Eradicators are good. I'm definitely not saying otherwise. Right now though, I'd go with Attack Bikes over them. When we define the role for Eradicators you can see that it is performed better for slightly more points by Attack Bikes, who save on CPs and have value perform other roles in a Fast Attack slot that saves the Heavy Support slot.

[Hymnblade]

Their ability to come in from reserves outside of their deployment zone should be removed.

I don't see how that could possibly be removed before 10th edition. I guess they could release an FAQ that says "Eradicators can't use this core stratagem", but that would be weird.

 

I think the main issue with Eradicators is simply their price. They're straight-up undercosted, with firepower that compares well point-for-point against even the glassiest of cannons; they're about on par with a pre-nerf grav drop pod on that front. Yet unlike the grav drop pod, they get 9 wounds for 120 points, instead of 5 wounds for 200 points (and at t5 instead of t4). By PL, they're even more undercosted for some reason; 1PL is supposed to be equivalent to 20 points, so you'd think a squad that costs 120 points should be 6PL, but instead they're 5PL - which matters for Strategic Reserves.

 

I bet raising them to 50 or 55ppm would be enough to keep them useful and playable without warping the whole meta around them. This would also mean making it 7PL or 8PL for a squad of three guys, so it would cost 3CP to outflank 3x3 of them instead of 2CP.