Maximizing Raven Guard WLTs and Stratagems

[Alcyon]

Whether you're playing the original CT or successor tactics, I think the strongest and most unique part of playing with the Raven Guard supplement are the Warlord Traits and Stratagems. The abilities these unlock are fairly unique to our forces and I wanted to lay out some ways to utilize these so we can talk about how to maximize whatever competitive advantage we have. One of the strongest approaches I've heard players talk about in the objective-focused world of 9th is the ability to hem opponents into their deployment zones with fast-moving units or those that can natively deploy in the mid-board, like Infiltrators. Without the ability to leave their DZ, enemies are locked out of moving towards objectives, which can be a critical setback especially for very resilient, slow-moving units like Plagueburst Crawlers.

 

Master of Ambush's ability to deploy almost any unit and an HQ as though they had Concealed Positions after determining who has first turn is extremely strong, and can facilitate either a turn 1 charge with a slow-moving unit, or the placement of a highly resilient unit on a key objective.

 

Similarly, the Swift & Deadly WLT, combined with Canticles of Hate, allows a Bike Chaplain, Outriders and other bikes to move, advance and charge 23-28" (or 25-30" for Scout Bikes) which will often facilitate a first turn combat on 9th edition's 44x60 table sizes and 24" separation between deployment zones.

 

The Infiltrators stratagem allows infantry units to move out of your deployment zone and into midboard terrain before turn 1, allowing shorter-range units to set up firing positions, the seizure of objectives by units without Concealed Positions, and even the possibility of first turn charges on boards with narrow neutral ground that exist outside Matched Play. 

 

Finally the Strike from the Shadows stratagem grants any infantry unit the ability to deepstrike as though it were a Terminator force, opening up turn 2 fire support almost anywhere on the board as well as potential 7" charges when combined with a Chaplain chanting Canticles of Hate, especially with the new Commanding Oratory strat. 

 

So - what units do we think work best with this trio of abilities?

 

Bladeguard and Aggressors are both major picks for Master of Ambush because they either have little or short-range shooting, combined with relatively slow movement and strong melee punch. With the nerf to Impulsors (5++ but more importantly the loss of Fly), I think we will see fewer Bladeguard in other forces as their main transport took a major hit. The major allure of BGV for me is their in-built 2+/4++ and 3w, which makes them very resilient even without character support even when compared to Gravis units with T5. The combination of that statline plus Transhuman Physiology means even the ubiquity of Str 8 weapons doesn't threaten them that much.

 

On one hand, it's tempting to deploy them with MoA because they can get onto an objective in time to score it for turn 1, but given their lack of shooting it might not be worth it to lose out on a turn of damage output. As noted they also don't rely as much on a character for support, which is a big benefit of the MoA ability.

 

Accordingly I think BGV are better deployed with SftS and thus I plan to mostly use MoA on Aggressors that can either get off a turn 1 shoot and charge, or sit on an objective and Overwatch anything trying to push them off it. Right now my character support is in the form of a Librarian for a 5++ aura, though I would also consider a Chaplain for re-rolls to hit and/or +1 to wound for the shooting phase.

 

Swift & Deadly I think is pretty clearly tuned towards bikes; jump packs are a classic and thematic Raven Guard choice, but with the variability of a D6 advance instead of the turbo-boost special rule I think these are too risky when planning an approach that involves first turn charges. Strike From The Skies helps but I think ultimately not enough to make it reliable.

 

I'm excited to try this combination out in upcoming Crusade games; I expect the main challenge to be positioning the bikes out of LoS in deployment so that they don't simply get killed if I lose the roll-off for first turn. This is something I'll have to keep in mind when placing terrain, you'll want to put some obscuring pieces in neutral ground right on the edge of your DZ so that you don't lose as many inches maneuvering around it on turn 1. 

 

Anybody have other ideas or suggestions, or see any flaws in my logic? Jacques Corbin recently suggested using MoA with a Primaris Techmarine to support a Concealed Positions Invictor, which I think is a pretty spicy concept - that could be paired with Aggressors or even standard Intercessors to hold a key objective.

 

[Dracos]

I can add my two cents about the strats today and will throw in some thoughts on the Traits after I get my Codex.

 

 

Accordingly I think BGV are better deployed with SftS and thus I plan to mostly use MoA on Aggressors that can either get off a turn 1 shoot and charge, or sit on an objective and Overwatch anything trying to push them off it. Right now my character support is in the form of a Librarian for a 5++ aura, though I would also consider a Chaplain for re-rolls to hit and/or +1 to wound for the shooting phase.

 

We are definitely going to be sharing notes over then next couple months as I get my Bladeguard and Eradicators board ready. Im also altering the types of Inceptors and Aggressors Im using also so this should be a interesting Holiday season.

 

Ive been using 2 sets of 5 Aggressors recently. One SftS and the other MoA. Ive also brought both in SftS once. I admit the sample set of 7 games is small but my favorite so far has been SftS for the dual Aggressor squads . . . . which is a shame because they are getting retired as soon as I get the 2 units of Bladeguard  and a Flamestorm Aggressor unit ready.

 

My point is I'd save MoA for our best combat unit and SftS for our best shooting unit. For me that means .... not what you think .... I'll be MoA the Flamestorm, Infiltrating the Bladeguard, and SftS mt Eradicators.  I think the Bladeguard are going to be great at holding the midboard with the help of Incursors and Assault Intercessors. 

[Mandragola]

My point is I'd save MoA for our best combat unit and SftS for our best shooting unit. For me that means .... not what you think .... I'll be MoA the Flamestorm, Infiltrating the Bladeguard, and SftS mt Eradicators. I think the Bladeguard are going to be great at holding the midboard with the help of Incursors and Assault Intercessors.

I agree. I think sfts is bad on bladeguard because it asks them to do a 9” charge. Forget it - you’re better off walking. RG traits are decent for bladeguard because they gain a lot from cover and the enemy having -1 to hit. Infiltrate and then plant a banner or something on a centre objective in T1, or run to the centre of the board for the marine secondary whose name I forget.

 

MoA on flamer aggressors with a suitable character escort. I think aggressors are the clear choice here because they do stuff in both phases. I do like a librarian as the ambusher, either with psychic fortress or potentially null zone. Turning up to switch off the invulnerable save for an army like daemons or harlequins while they’re still in their DZ will be kinda neat, especially if you’ve got some attacks coming in.

 

I like infiltrators on vanguard vets. Advance them before the game starts and then get a charge in. Good times. You can take a squad of 10, which you can sometimes combat squad and sometimes not. Keeping them together is great for buffs from chapter masters, chaplain and so on, and they’ll often be able to successfully multi charge.

 

Oldmarines can bring 10 man units of some scary stuff through, whereas the nasty Primaris stuff tends to be limited to units of 6. Its worth looking at oldmarine stuff for MoA, to see if a better bomb can be constructed. I quite like terminators, and especially hammernators and relic terminators. Hammernators are extremely tough so shoving ten of them at the enemy should let the rest of your army. Relic terminators can bring a load of different weapons and a mix of power fists, heavy flamers, combi-bolters and lightning claws, which could be really efficient.

 

Swift and deadly wants to be on some one swift, and I think the outrider chaplain is the obvious choice. Outriders are also very good, though not especially great as RG. Remember their small unit size offers little protection for characters. Not a bad unit but maybe not an essential one for RG.

 

Sfts goes on Eradicators. It’s kind of too good really. The major downside of these guys is range - but not if they can appear anywhere. The only time I wouldn’t do this is against an army with very little shooting, where I’d probably want these guys on the board already to shoot greater daemons and stuff.

[Jacques Corbin]

The Guerilla Tactics stratagem on the Phobos Lieutenant, Grav Chute Reivers, or even Shrike to place them back into reserves to deep strike again.

[Alcyon]

 

My point is I'd save MoA for our best combat unit and SftS for our best shooting unit. For me that means .... not what you think .... I'll be MoA the Flamestorm, Infiltrating the Bladeguard, and SftS mt Eradicators. I think the Bladeguard are going to be great at holding the midboard with the help of Incursors and Assault Intercessors.

I agree. I think sfts is bad on bladeguard because it asks them to do a 9” charge. Forget it - you’re better off walking. RG traits are decent for bladeguard because they gain a lot from cover and the enemy having -1 to hit. Infiltrate and then plant a banner or something on a centre objective in T1, or run to the centre of the board for the marine secondary whose name I forget.

 

Swift and deadly wants to be on some one swift, and I think the outrider chaplain is the obvious choice. Outriders are also very good, though not especially great as RG. Remember their small unit size offers little protection for characters. Not a bad unit but maybe not an essential one for RG.

 

Sfts goes on Eradicators. It’s kind of too good really. The major downside of these guys is range - but not if they can appear anywhere. The only time I wouldn’t do this is against an army with very little shooting, where I’d probably want these guys on the board already to shoot greater daemons and stuff.

 

For sure a 9" charge is totally unreliable - right now my plan is to get a first turn charge with the Bike Chaplain supported by Outriders and Scout Bikes (more bodies to help screen and a longer effective range.) Then turn 2 bring on the Bladeguard with Canticles of Hate from the Bike Chaplain to support that same combat. I don't want to Infiltrate the Bladeguard because their shooting is so poor - I'd rather park Aggressors on that spot and bring the BGV out of deepstrike so they can do a re-rollable 7" charge thanks to the Chaplain. That's the average roll for 2d6 and with a re-roll should be pretty reliable.

 

I've found sometimes that SftS is unnecessary on Eradicators when you deploy on the long board edges, or in missions below 2000 pts - the field is just so small you can get 12" in range using Infiltrators instead and shoot on turn 1. Sometimes you face these threat-heavy armies and if you get first turn it's a huge help to be able to delete something before it shoots back. If you get second turn they can lurk behind obscuring cover and pop out, then use Transhuman/+1 save on D1 if necessary.

[Mandragola]

 

 

My point is I'd save MoA for our best combat unit and SftS for our best shooting unit. For me that means .... not what you think .... I'll be MoA the Flamestorm, Infiltrating the Bladeguard, and SftS mt Eradicators. I think the Bladeguard are going to be great at holding the midboard with the help of Incursors and Assault Intercessors.

I agree. I think sfts is bad on bladeguard because it asks them to do a 9” charge. Forget it - you’re better off walking. RG traits are decent for bladeguard because they gain a lot from cover and the enemy having -1 to hit. Infiltrate and then plant a banner or something on a centre objective in T1, or run to the centre of the board for the marine secondary whose name I forget.

 

Swift and deadly wants to be on some one swift, and I think the outrider chaplain is the obvious choice. Outriders are also very good, though not especially great as RG. Remember their small unit size offers little protection for characters. Not a bad unit but maybe not an essential one for RG.

 

Sfts goes on Eradicators. It’s kind of too good really. The major downside of these guys is range - but not if they can appear anywhere. The only time I wouldn’t do this is against an army with very little shooting, where I’d probably want these guys on the board already to shoot greater daemons and stuff.

 

For sure a 9" charge is totally unreliable - right now my plan is to get a first turn charge with the Bike Chaplain supported by Outriders and Scout Bikes (more bodies to help screen and a longer effective range.) Then turn 2 bring on the Bladeguard with Canticles of Hate from the Bike Chaplain to support that same combat. I don't want to Infiltrate the Bladeguard because their shooting is so poor - I'd rather park Aggressors on that spot and bring the BGV out of deepstrike so they can do a re-rollable 7" charge thanks to the Chaplain. That's the average roll for 2d6 and with a re-roll should be pretty reliable.

 

I've found sometimes that SftS is unnecessary on Eradicators when you deploy on the long board edges, or in missions below 2000 pts - the field is just so small you can get 12" in range using Infiltrators instead and shoot on turn 1. Sometimes you face these threat-heavy armies and if you get first turn it's a huge help to be able to delete something before it shoots back. If you get second turn they can lurk behind obscuring cover and pop out, then use Transhuman/+1 save on D1 if necessary.

This sounds sensible. The Eradicators have two or three great options as RG. They can just stand in cover far away and be really tough to shoot, they can hide, you can advance them with infiltrators, or you can do SftS. All options have their place.

 

I do think I'd just deploy bladeguard on the board. You could very easily end up getting them into combat on turn 2 that way - or maybe even turn one. Infiltrate and have a chaplain with swift and deadly pop canticle of hate - your guys will run their little legs off. They're also a seriously tough unit, so they're probably the unit you least mind the enemy shooting at.

[Alcyon]

There's certainly an argument for it. I do like the idea of being able to choose a weak point in the enemy line and deploy the BGV right there, since they're tough but also optimized for fighting T4 and below with their Str. 5 swords. Aggressors are better "take all comers" so they might be ok Infiltrating or coming in from reserves even.

 

If we were going to do that, what would we pick as our MoA character? Phobos Lt. is tempting because he can shut down ObSec, and if we use Master of the Trifold Path we could also give him Rites of War to help offset BGV's low model count. Alternatively the Bladeguard Ancient can also take Rites of War and also grants +1 to hit and the Astartes Banner ability. For my purposes (Crusade currently) I can only take one WLT per character, so MoA is maybe best on the former since you can't get get re-roll 1s to wound but you can get re-roll 1st to hit or +1 WS with the Crusade Battle Honours. I don't think they really need a Chaplain as none of the abilities are do-or-die in that situation.

 

However Aggressors arriving via SftS definitely need a Chaplain if they plan to make it into combat that turn. They could either limit themselves to landing within range of the Bike Chaplain (maybe overkill/hard to organize) or you could run a Terminator Chaplain who can deep-strike himself. One issue I have run into with Aggressors though is that they sometimes wipe out screens in the shooting phase and then have trouble getting the charge distance to make it into the juicy targets behind the screen. I think they are often better walked up the board so they can position themselves to flame one thing and charge another. BGV don't have that issue nearly as bad because their Bolt Pistols do a lot less damage.

[Dracos]

I've made that mistake with Aggressors a couple times in the past. I rarely don't move and shoot with Aggressors but just as rarely do they ever advance unless there's a trick to get a charge off also. A bit depressing when I shoot so well I lose the option to charge. Usually looking to use that charge to get onto the opposing objective. The nerf actually has helped lessen that effect. I try to position them so I can shoot one unit and charge the objective sitter with some help from either Shrike or the Inceptors but focusing on whatever it takes to grab VPs trumps unit efficiency every Turn. That's the nice thing about Aggressors ... and Terminators if I used Firstborn. Their versatility and durability make them primo unit choices (Dark Angels must be giggling like little school girls so far this edition :)) 

 

Bladeguard aren't as good as either of the other choices yet but they are next tier choice down and I think they are going to be real good after we have tested all the potential ways to optimally leverage them. Blood Angels and Black Templar make Bladeguard a nasty hammer ... Raven Guard are going to turn them into assassins.

[Mandragola]

My thinking on Bladeguard is that other chapters do them better, and Ravenguard do other units better. Aggressors, Terminators, Vanguard Vets and Eradicators feel like the prime units for RG abilities like MoA, infiltrators and SftS. Bladeguard are only active in one phase whereas most of these other units do stuff in shooting and melee. They don't do anything all that much better than these other options.

 

It's a bit weird how terminators are now cheaper than Aggressors. But that's the way it is, and it's not completely unreasonable, given the extra attack and far more shooting. I do think a terminator squad might be the best option for bringing with MoA, due to their balance of toughness, shooting and melee power. Coincidentally I happen to have a bunch of Cataphractii that I never quite got round to painting for my 7th Legion, which I could work up. They don't exactly fit with the theme I'm considering though, of tacticool guys in cammo. Also, they're a bit short.

 

I think a Librarian is probably the best MoA with Aggressors. He can give them an invulnerable or remove it from nearby enemies with null zone. The Reiver Lieutenant might be the best option with terminators as they benefit from his rerolls.

 

Chaplains and Apothecaries are also good for doing this job, though you can have a Chaplain turn up riding a bike now, so he has his own way of getting to the enemy. He's a better candidate for Swift and Deadly. The Apothecary can pop up with SftS and revive a dead model, so that might be his best option. Or maybe you could just have him run up the field, since his FNP aura is always good to have around. It's nice insurance against going second.

Edited October 25, 2020 by Mandragola

[Dracos]

Yeah. With the extra wounds Firstborn got and the new points Terminators innate abilities have made them better than Aggressors for sure. With strats it’s close.

 

Speaking of strats I was pretty peeves it cost points to upgrade to the MoS. Points are thin enough with Primaris armies as is and I almost always seem to end up with extra CP at end of a game when I’m playing competitively. Adapt or die though so I’m really excited about actually getting a hard copy in the next week (or so) back orders bite. GW sent my flgs copies in French.

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

I haven't played any games with the new book yet (feels like I never will at this point - thanks pandemic) but my plan to try out is:

 

Shrike - I think he's great value now for the CM buff at 135, along with Guerilla tactics I am really looking forward to playing him more so than before. 

Primaris Chaplain on Bike - Swift & Deadly WLT, Vox Espiritum Relic. This gives him 9" Radius (18" Diameter!) bubble of: Canticle, Move+Advance+Charge, Use his leadership, and if I take him to a Master of Sanctity, he can give Re-rolls to hit in H2H as well.

2x LT - One Reiver for access to his stratagems and use him as a toolkit. One Primaris with Ex Tenebris

 

I am considering subbing out the double LT simply because I dont want to dedicate the relics/CP to make them useful, and I'm considering a Libby for the last slot for more utility

 

Lastly my MoA will go on an Apothecary. He will MoA with my Aggressors, either for an early-game get stuck in or on a central objective, with them just running both survival strats along with healing + resurrection to bog it down and camp out the points. 

[Alcyon]

Vox Espiritum on the Chaplain is a spicy thought, hadn't considered that - would make bringing in units via SftS and charging much more convenient with a much bigger bubble, especially if he's locked in combat when they land. 

 

I think one Lt could certainly be a dreadnought, probably a Redemptor given how good they are now with Duty Eternal. They can put out either the Captain or Lt. aura for a turn for 1 CP which I think is a steal. 

 

I was curious about the mathhammer of a 6+++ vs. a 5++ so I ran this little stats exercise. Seems obvious in retrospect but the 5++ is better the more damage the incoming weapon does since it obviously avoids all the damage. I wonder what the numbers are like for total survivability factoring in the resurrection power and healing each turn. 

[Mandragola]

Vox espiritum on the Chaplain is an interesting call. That's a lot of auras that you're improving and well worth considering.

 

I still don't rate any option to try and charge out of deep strike. Even with a Chaplain trying to give +2 from a litany, which can fail, you still have to do a 7" charge. It's simply too unreliable for me.

 

Of course if you do want to assault from deep strike then you can do it with terminators, without spending any CPs. And so can anyone. Deep strike assaults aren't something that Ravenguard do particularly well, since all marines can do it - albeit with a smaller selection of units. Instead I think that Ravenguard's advantage is being able to use SftS to make units that couldn't usually deep strike do so - things like those Eradicators in particular.

 

Looking at the list I've been playing around with, I'm not sure I really need the Swift and Deadly trait in there. There's already Strike from the Skies to play on vanguard vets. In my list it helps Shrike and the Chaplain himself. I could probably manage without, running Shrike, a Librarian and Reiver LT as my HQs, possibly making room for a Phobos LT with Ex Tenebris.

[ShinyRhino]

Deep Strike assaults are also hampered by the change to who can fight. It's 1/2 inch of an enemy model or a friendly engaged with an enemy. You're going to lose out on attacks on those long charges simply due to unit size and base area. Pile In helps, but when you have to put the unit in a line, spearhead, or blob to fit around the 9" bubble, things are going to get janky.

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

Deep Strike assaults are also hampered by the change to who can fight. It's 1/2 inch of an enemy model or a friendly engaged with an enemy. You're going to lose out on attacks on those long charges simply due to unit size and base area. Pile In helps, but when you have to put the unit in a line, spearhead, or blob to fit around the 9" bubble, things are going to get janky.

 

Another reason the Canticle chaplain is very solid. He turns 3" pile-ins into 6" pile ins. That's a lot of "free movement". That can help us get on top of objectives or box in enemy units. 

[Alcyon]

I still don't rate any option to try and charge out of deep strike. Even with a Chaplain trying to give +2 from a litany, which can fail, you still have to do a 7" charge. It's simply too unreliable for me.

 

Of course if you do want to assault from deep strike then you can do it with terminators, without spending any CPs. And so can anyone. Deep strike assaults aren't something that Ravenguard do particularly well, since all marines can do it - albeit with a smaller selection of units. Instead I think that Ravenguard's advantage is being able to use SftS to make units that couldn't usually deep strike do so - things like those Eradicators in particular.

 

I haven't actually tried it in a game yet so I can't speak to how it feels empirically, but the chance of getting 7+ on 2d6 is 58.33% and rises to 82.64% with a re-roll. It's not a guarantee by any means but it's quite likely. I do take your point though.

 

I do think there is something to be said for SftS granting us the ability to charge out of deepstrike with units like BGV or Aggressors, nobody else can do that, but given the risks involved in nailing a charge certainly there are benefits to only deep-striking shooty units like Eradicators or even Hellblasters. Those also benefit more from deepstrike in the sense that they're comparatively vulnerable and so more likely to be ganked on turn 1 if you lose the roll-off. Coming in from reserves ensures they'll get a chance to shoot at least once.

[Dracos]

I've used the deep striking Chaplain and Aggressor combo enough to tell you it works. It especially works when you throw Raven's Blade into the mix. Its even better now in 9th.

 

One of my favorites now is bringing down the combination of Chaplain/Aggressors/Inceptors and or Shrike.  I use this to wreck one side of my opponents flank. 

 

Drop within 9 with the Aggressors and Shrike. Pop the new strat to get the litany off. Prioritize shooting on potential counter-assault targets in the surrounding area. Then if needed charge the Inceptors to mop up the secondary targets while Shrike and the Aggressors wade into the main melee. Chaplain is free to buff anyone who looks like they could use his help the most in the following Turn. Really wish there was an Inceptor Chaplain :)

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

You using a terminator or jump pack chappy with that build?

[Dracos]

Me? Primaris so I have shifted back and forth from SftS to MoA. Generally I have went with MoA but as I rebuild toward what I want to run tournament wise that way change.

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

Me? Primaris so I have shifted back and forth from SftS to MoA. Generally I have went with MoA but as I rebuild toward what I want to run tournament wise that way change.

 

Yea, you! From your previous post it looked like you were timing that blob (haplain/Aggressors/Inceptors and or Shrike) to come down at the same time, so I assumed Deep Strike (or whatever were calling it these days) on T2. Figured you might use either a Terminator or Jump Pack Chaplain to save you CPs on more SFTS usage on a single model.

 

If you do go the MoA route, then its more like a 1-2 punch I assume, Aggressors and Primaris Chaplain T1 followed by Shrike/Inceptors T2?

[Dracos]

Well in the recent Orc game Aggressors rushed it with MoA Chaplin in midfield ruins cover. Shrike came down with two 5 man Bolter Inceptors. They ended up clearing opposing backfield Bois and Boss. Then helped take down another Boss and Bomma

 

That’s the old list that I’m still running in 9e games. I’m tailoring new list to take advantage of Indomitus box (x2+) Bladeguard and Eradicators. I’m just saying charging out of reserve with Shrike and Inceptors or Aggresors and Chaplain is t that hard a challenge. Especially with Ravens Blade .... and at worst if you bring them down in “teams” not just a lone unit then the shooting can be so good it was worth the try even if you fail.

 

I might find that harder to swallow with Bladeguard but with MoA they should be able to push the odds further in their direction.

 

Never take units of 3 of anything if you want them to be a working unit. Units of 3 are for Action Monkeys.