List advice

[XeonDragon]

Hi all

So, I need some advice on building a list for a 1,750 game in a tournament. What I have settled on is this:

 

HQ:

1 Captain with combi-plasma and teeth of terra

1 chaplain with combi-plasma and benediction of fury

1 primaris lieutenant with bellicose rifle or 1 normal lieutenant with combi-plasma

 

Troops:

2 x 5 man squad of intercessors with assault rifle, sergeant with chain sword

1 x 5 man squad of intercessors with stalker bolt rifle, sergeant with chain sword

2 x 5 man squads of tactical marines, grav cannon and amp, sergeant with combi-plasma and chain sword

 

Elite:

1 unit of 5 boltstorm aggressors

1 unit of 5 terminators, with cyclone missile launcher (probably take 50/50 chain and power fists)

1 venerable dreadnought with twin las

 

Heavy:

1 squad of 3 eliminators

1 squad of 3 eradicators

1 squad of 5 hellblasters (assault plasma incinerator)

 

Whilst that comes to 1,750 points, I was toying with some options listed below (all based on what I have built and available).  My goal is to have enough obsec troops to hold objectives, and to use the terminators, aggressors and dreadnought as one “bully bubble” to take on harder targets and the eradicators and hellblasters as another “kill squad” of sorts.

 

I found the hellblasters with assault incinerators really good the last couple of times I have played (15 strength 6 shots is nothing to sneeze at), but I am thinking I might need bit more durability and/or melee.  I’d love your ideas on which you would do. So, would you:

 

1: leave the list as is

 

2: drop the hellblasters for another venerable dreadnought, and put auxiliary grenade launchers on the two intercessor squads with assault bolters

 

3: Drop the hellblasters and either one of the 90-point character or the eliminators and take two Razorbacks either with twin assault cannons (250 points) or both with twin las (240) and spend the left-over points on grenade launchers for the intercessor squads or

 

4: Drop the hellbasters and replace with two drop-pod and spend the remaining 25 points on melee weapons for the intercessor sergeants (e.g. maybe a power first or two).

 

Looking forward to hearing your ideas :D

 

[Dracos]

I firmly believe youre giving up VP by not having units with concealed positions  capable of being deployed in the middle of the board pregame. I implore you that if you have Incursors/Infiltrators or even Scouts (10 man size) to fid a way to get them in your list that maintains your overall plan to collect VP.

[XeonDragon]

I firmly believe youre giving up VP by not having units with concealed positions  capable of being deployed in the middle of the board pregame. I implore you that if you have Incursors/Infiltrators or even Scouts (10 man size) to fid a way to get them in your list that maintains your overall plan to collect VP.

 

Thanks, I had thought about that. I was leaning towards using infiltrate and MOA to get units onto objectives. I suppose I could run two 5 man infiltrator squads (240 points) but that would involve giving up the hellblasters + eliminators and/or a character. It's either that or replace some of the other troop choices and try and squeeze them in. Thanks for the suggestion, I will think it over.   

[Alcyon]

I've found Hellblasters to be awesome and they're even better now with three shots, so I'd be leery of dropping them. Eliminators are fine as backline objective holders but you could also do that with a cheap Tactical Squad.

 

I would try and run one Razorback because then you only have two vehicles, not really enough to make someone take Bring It Down against you and it would add some critical mobility for a list without Concealed Positions. Two Assault Cannons also helps with hordes which can be a surprising problem for marines, though you do have the Boltstorm Aggressors there. I think 5 Troops choices is a ton so I'd probably drop an Intercessor Squad to afford the Razorback.

 

I think the Terminators, Aggressors and Dreadnought all together is probably overkill, and your shooty units could use some screening I'd bet. I'd probably run the Dreadnought with the Hellblasters to give them a re-roll 1s aura so you can run your Captain further up the board, and put the Eradicators in via SftS so they can get guaranteed shots off before dying (ideally within range of your Captain or Dread's aura.)

[XeonDragon]

Thanks for the ideas. There are 4 objectives in the mission pack, so I'm leaning towards keeping the hellblasters and, depending on terrain set-up, either run them and the eradicators with the Venerable Dreadnought to maximise the re-roll 1 aura strat + the lieutenant to get re-roll 1 to wounds in one little bubble. To march up the middle and draw fire.

 

Other plans are to:

 

1. Camp the eliminators and stalker bolt intercessors on the home objective, in terrain and snipe away
2. Use the infiltrate strategy on the tactical marines to get them near objectives, then advance assault intercessors up to 'relieve them' (so they can stay stationary and get the most out of the grav cannon) and take the objectives. 
3. The Captain can MOA the terminators in. As I just found out you can't give MOA on two characters (even though battlescribe allows it), swift and deadly + canticle of hate and careful positioning should allow me to get aggressors and terminators together where I want them... that and the re-roll 1s to hit should result in a nice little shooting and melee headache for the opponent. Hope to put them all somewhere where I can slowly make my way towards the opponents DZ objective, or near a big nasty / characters 

I'll let you know how it goes!

Edited October 27, 2020 by XeonDragon

[Alcyon]

Sounds like a plan to me - good luck!

[XeonDragon]

Well darn it, the plan didn't work :(

 

It was a fun game, really informative. My opponent was a 10+ year veteran of the game and he was running RG successors! Our lists were very similar. He took bolter fusillades and stalwart as his traits. 

 

So the eliminators and stalker bolt intercessors did a good job camping out on the home objective. In hind sight, as I went first I should have moved the eliminators onto the central objective and then used MOA to put the aggressors there. Silly mistake. 

 

The tactical marine squads killed more points than they cost. That grav cannon is brutal against marines. Between the grav cannon and combi-plasma on the sergeant they pretty much killed at least one (if not two) primaris marines every single turn. 

 

He got blade guard and a squad of infiltrators onto the central objective. I managed to take them out with assault hellblasters, intercessors with assault rifles, the two tactical marine squads on each side of the field really got them mangled up in cross-fire, but unfortunately it made the mistake of clearing out the final model with eliminators instead of charging in with the aggressors. He then wiped out my aggressors with his + smash captain shenanigans. 

 

I won't bore you with the rest, but in a nutshell my terminators did well before being roasted by some lucky rolls on his behalf and unlucky saves on my by his second squad of eradicators. When time was called by the TO, I was down 10-39. We both only had one troops unit left at that point, but his was on an objective and mine was a single tactical marine sergeant with combi-plasma and chainsword surrounded by 3 bolter inceptors, so even though I still had my venerable dreadnought, slash captain (teeth of  terra), lieutenant (primarch's wrath) and a squad of 3 eradicators, I'm not sure I could have taken down his primaris captain, phobos lieutenant with ex-tenerbris, the remaining bolter inceptors, a redemptor dreadnought (gattlings cannons) and one squad of infiltrators. 

 

Dracos, you were right - something I discussed with my opponent afterwards. I will drop from 5 aggressors to 4 and use those points to switch the two intercessor squads with assault bolters to infiltrators, and pop a grenade launcher onto the stalker guys.    

 

Thanks for all your advice everyone! 

[Alcyon]

Sorry to hear you didn't take it down, that sucks - but it does sound like you learned a lot so that's a great silver lining. My one note is that 10-39 seems like a very low score for both of you (even assuming 20-49 with painting points.) I think a very common theme for games in 9th is that the player with more surviving units (AKA more kills) is often the loser in VP. Can I ask what secondaries you both took? 

[XeonDragon]

Sure thing, I took assassinate (he hid his character really well, credit to him), attrition and the mission secondary (hold the middle objective). He took assassinate, engage on all fronts and the mission secondary.

 

Attrition was really frustrating. For turns 1, 2 and 3 we both killed the same amount of units. However, in turn 1 I had two of his units down to 1 model with 1 wound, and in turn 2 I had a character down to 1 wound and in turn 3 I again had two units (another character and a unit) down to 1 wound. So in short, if I'd score just one more damn wound I would have scored 12 points from that secondary at least. Likewise with assassinate he ended up with his 3 character being on 1, 1 and 2 wounds apiece.  

 

We didn't do points for painting (but both armies were painted) - rule of the TO, not us.  

 

My issue was not getting onto objectives, and when I did I didn't hold them.

 

Next game is 2k, the 4 pillars. Much to think about!

[Dracos]

 

Dracos, you were right - something I discussed with my opponent afterwards. I will drop from 5 aggressors to 4 and use those points to switch the two intercessor squads with assault bolters to infiltrators, and pop a grenade launcher onto the stalker guys.  

 

If only those words came from my fiance more often ;)

 

Going to throw quasi radical idea your way 

 

Lose the Venerable Dreadnought  add a second unit of Eliminators two Eradicators and use 2 units of Incursors instead of the Infiltrators.  Ive played enough games with Infiltrators to tell you Incursors are more a TAC unit for less points. 

 

This would leave you with 8 points. As a final tweak I would drop the two combi-plasma and do the following. A power fist for two of your Intercessor sergeants who should be working midboard support with those assault rifles and put  plasma pistol on the Captain. He should be up close in melee range with those Teeth of Terra anyway. Avoid the temptation to have him sit back and shoot at range. That's what the Primaris Lt is for right?

 

A single Dreadnought is just begging to be put down Turn One in a competitive setting. Everything else in your list was Infantry so lean into that. I think your opponent was trying to give you solid advice that didn't alter your list drastically, so thumbs up for him. I just feel if you want the core of this list to stay the same but increase it competitive level adding the Eradicators and Eliminators and "upgrading" to Incursors is really going to make the engine run more smoothly.

 

As a note if you havent built the Infiltrators already, I haven't ran into a person yet that could tell the difference between a Stalker bolt rifle and a Rapid fire bolt rifle from across the table and pretty much the same for Incursors and Infiltrators. At the worse it would require a head swap to "count as" to 9 out of 10 people ;)

[Alcyon]

Huh, those are respectable secondaries, though I would maybe leery of taking Assassinate if they had fewer than 5 characters since you immediately give up 3 VP of a potential 15 for each model less than 5. With Infiltrate and MoA I'd expect EoAF to be reasonable to achieve as well as Deploy Scramblers so that might be something to consider if you can tailor your list a little to make those easier to achieve. But Goonhammer did say that the data suggests the Purge the Enemy and Battlefield Supremacy categories are strongest because of their alignment with Primary goals, so definitely struggling on Primaries makes those hard to score too. The Marine mirror match definitely seems like a challenge.

[Dracos]

Secondaries Im a fan of so far

 

Engage on All Fronts and Deploy Scramblers are almost auto includes anymore. They just fall right in line with an army that makes heavy use of Infiltrating and Deep Striking units. After that I'll go for one that is mission or army specific if I feel it fits with how I plan on collecting Primary VP.

 

Being Raven Guard Assassinate and Abhor the Witch can be pretty good but I don't like being stymied by a cagey opponent. I've also tried Linebreaker, Grind Them Down, and Raise the Banner. I feel they are kind of a trap. Too much depends on your opponent and I want my Secondaries to result from my actions, not good or bad dice rolls and a cagey opponent.

 

While We Stand We Fight fit my 8e army better as I find I am being more aggressive with characters in 9th, but with some proper shenanigans like Echoes of the Ravenspire, I think I can still make this one work.

 

Like the rest of our army build, deployment and use, we need to have a plan that incorporates the Secondaries that are most probable with our gameplan and avoid letting our opponent the chance to have us making bad choices. 

 

 

 

Edit: Forgot to italicize my third Secondary

Edited October 28, 2020 by Dracos

[XeonDragon]

Thanks for all the great ideas and feedback on my 1,750 points list. So, for my 2k list for the ‘4 pillars’ mission, this is what I am leaning towards:

 

HQ:

1. Chaplain, hero of chapter (imperium’s sword), combi-plasma or combi/melta and benediction of fury, probably take litany of strength to turn him into a smash chaplain or canticle of hate for better charges on the aggressors and terminators.
2. Lieutenant with lightning claw and the Primarch’s Wrath (relic)

Troops:

1. 2 x  infiltrator squads OR 2 x incursors squads with haywire mines
2. 1 x  intercessor squad with assault bolter (or maybe stalker, haven’t decided) and power first on the sergeant
3. 1 x tactical squad, sergeant with combi-plasma and lightning claw, grav cannon and amp
4. 1 x tactical squad, sergeant with combi-plasma and chainsword, grav cannon and amp

Elite:

1. 1 x  boltstorm aggressor squad (4)
2. 1 x boltstorm aggressor squad (3)
3. 5-man terminator squad with cyclone missile launcher, 3 x chain fists, teleport homer for repositioning shenanigans
4. Chief apothecary as my warlord, teeth of terra relic, master of trifold path with warlord traits as:
   1. selfless healer and
   2. MOA, swift and deadly (escort the aggressors and/or terminators so they can advance, shoot and charge, and then bring them back from the dead) or
   3. echo of ravenspire (disappear when the terminators use the teleport homer, reappear with them)

Heavy support:

1. 1 squad of eliminators
2. 1 squad of hellblasters (assault weapon)
3. 1 squad of eradicators

Transport:

1. 2 x  razorbacks with twin las cannons and storm bolters

From what some of my friends have told me that have played the ITC version of ‘the four pillars’ you really, really need troops that can stay alive. From what they have said and from what I have read, one way to win the mission is to kill their troops (so they can’t score points) whilst keeping yours alive. I’m sure that is easier said than done.

 

So, with that in mind, and keeping to what I have built and/or can build with what I have, the central plank of my list is the terminators, aggressors and chief apothecary. The idea is to use them aggressively to target troops with shooting, and use melee and cyclone missile launchers against harder targets and vehicles. The apothecary will hopefully keep the units from being wiped out too fast, and I was thinking of using the ‘echo of ravenspire’ warlord trait in combination with the new repositioning function of the terminators teleport homer to move them rapidly across the battlefield if needed.

 

The eliminators will either nab an objective (if it is cover), or sit back and snip at characters. If I take incursors, then the plan would be to mine the objectives. Infiltrators would be used to either snag objectives if there is cover available. I am also thinking about just nabbing them, then using the smoke strat to get the -1 to hit and hope that they can stay alive long enough.

 

The razorbacks will have the tactical squads inside, and will try and shield my troops intercessor squad until I am ready to move them onto the objectives.

 

The hellblasters will be a flexible element, either being deployed ahead of the razorbacks, or escorting them, or maybe just as a glass cannon and small carnifax distractor. Lieutenant will probably sit with them. They have good volume of shots, but if/when you overcharge really need the wounds to stick.

 

How I use the eradicators will depend on the terrain. If possible, I might sit them in cover with a firing line to a key objective. Otherwise I might move them up with the aggressors, or use MOA on them to get near a nasty blob of the opponents best anti-troops heavy.

 

So, those are my thoughts. In terms of what I could do different… I have various captain models built, so I could swap out the chaplain or lieutenant for one. I also have 6 bolter inceptors and 6 plasma inceptors built, so they could also be used.

 

Anyway, what do you think of this list and how I plan to use it? For my successor traits, I am thinking of bolter fusillades and then either whirlwind of rage (so the melee aspect is buffed), hungry for battle or rapid assault, so that the aggressors and hellblasters can really move and shoot. I had also considered tactical withdrawal, so that the aggressor and terminators can really ensure that their melee counts.

 

Would love to hear your thoughts again!

[Dracos]

Looks like a list with a lot of good tools.

 

Curious if Haywore Mines aren’t a strat now?

 

How many Intercesssors if it’s 10 that looks like good unit to infiltrate.

 

Putting Eradicators and Hellblasters in SftS usually scares the crap out of people they get conservative (usually) with harder units.

 

 

 

Lastly for tradition sake. “Take pictures. No pictures, didn’t happen.” Which reminds me I have to post a few pics from my game against Orcs couple weeks a go.

[Alcyon]

I'm pretty skeptical of the value of the abilities that allow you to disappear and reappear - you miss out on an entire turn of shooting and combat which seems hard to stomach. I suppose it's no worse than coming in from reserves initially but if you do that, arrive turn 2, fight etc. then disappear top of turn 3 only to reappear turn 4 that's two whole turns of your strongest forces not even being on the board. Could be interesting to try, haven't done so myself.

 

As Dracos mentioned Haywire Mines are a strat now and I think it only applies when combat occurs so it's not the same tool as previous.

[XeonDragon]

Thanks guys. I am also wondering if the hellblasters are worth it, now that I have no way to re-rolls 1 on the overcharge (as no captain)? 

[Dracos]

Due to a lack of durability and high cost I have a bias against Hellblasters. Those are points I would always prefer to spend on a Gravis unit. Either more Aggressors or Inceptors are my usual choice. I literally can’t get enough Inceptors in any lis ... especially because they don’t have a paired lightning claw version yet ;)

 

I would drop the Hellblasters add an Aggressror and look for a cheap unit that can help on your Secondaries.

[Alcyon]

That's a good point, I've been playing Crusade so my Hellblasters have almost always had their own re-roll 1s aura. I may end up running them in an Impulsor with a Captain or with a Redemptor for that aura in Matched Play.

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

Looking forward to the batrep

 

Haywire mines are a weird one, they are still a points cost and not a stratagem (like everything else). I honestly wish they would have changed to a stratagem (like Melta bombs) would have made them a lot better, imo.

[XeonDragon]

This is where I think for the missions where getting and holding onto objectives are critical (like the 4 pillars mission), RG have a potentially very nasty combo: place haywire mine down (10 pts) then also spend 1CP to do 'a deadly prize' on the same objective.

 

Voila! pretty much guaranteed at least a couple of mortal wounds, and the opponent has to think whether taking 6 mortal wounds to nab the objective is worth the risk

 

Edit to add: I checked the new codex and yup, haywire mines are a 10 point option on incursors. 

 

Looking forward to the batrep

 

Haywire mines are a weird one, they are still a points cost and not a stratagem (like everything else). I honestly wish they would have changed to a stratagem (like Melta bombs) would have made them a lot better, imo.

Edited October 29, 2020 by XeonDragon

[XeonDragon]

Haywire mines are 10 point option on incursors. So could double up with 'a deadly prize' strat to do up to 6 mortal wounds to opponent when they get near an objective. Nice!

 

Intercessors were going to be 2 x 5 man squad. I might drop one of the other troop choices to make it 10 men, then SFTS and double-fire.... 60 shots is pretty good, even if AP0 (averages nearly 7 unsaved wounds vs MEQ, 4 vs gravis/vehicles). If could do it when tactical doctrine is active, that is an average of 10 unsaved wounds vs MEQ, and nearly 7 against gravis or VEQ.  Tasty! :D

 

I like the idea of putting hellblasters and eradicators into reserves, but I think for this mission I actually want to bait them into having their anti-troop units come out and play early, and focus on wiping those out, so my troops can then nab the objectives (yeah, easier said than done, right?). I suppose holding the hellblasters and eradicators backs might make them think twice, and hole up a bit, allowing me to nab objectives earlier and score VP. Hmmmm.

 

Also thinking of ditching chaplain, and taking gravis captain (115 points) and shaving points of by dropping haywire mines. That way I could have a re-roll bubble for the hellblasters and march them up with the aggressors.  

 

 

Looks like a list with a lot of good tools.

Curious if Haywore Mines aren’t a strat now?

How many Intercesssors if it’s 10 that looks like good unit to infiltrate.

Putting Eradicators and Hellblasters in SftS usually scares the crap out of people they get conservative (usually) with harder units.



Lastly for tradition sake. “Take pictures. No pictures, didn’t happen.” Which reminds me I have to post a few pics from my game against Orcs couple weeks a go.

[XeonDragon]

So, for tradition's sake, one picture from the 1,750 point game below

 

 

 

Looks like a list with a lot of good tools.

Curious if Haywore Mines aren’t a strat now?

How many Intercesssors if it’s 10 that looks like good unit to infiltrate.

Putting Eradicators and Hellblasters in SftS usually scares the crap out of people they get conservative (usually) with harder units.



Lastly for tradition sake. “Take pictures. No pictures, didn’t happen.” Which reminds me I have to post a few pics from my game against Orcs couple weeks a go.

Edited October 29, 2020 by XeonDragon