40K "Perfect Edition"

[mughi3]

This is an ongoing topic i have on another forum so i thought i would re-post it here for those who have not seen it.- 

 

The purpose of this thread is for those of us who are tired of the GW rollercoaster of points and rules changes that make the game something we don't enjoy with "the next edition"

I decided to start this topic as i notice a load of people who really like the skirmish play of RT and second edition (never played it myself but i have some of the books). or those like myself who started in 3rd who think the direction that 9th is going is a bad direction we are not interested in moving into it.


There obviously is a drive for players to want to play the current edition, but nobody is forcing us to.
Because of that. this thread will lend itself to social or casual play and not the current tournament meta.

Nobody disputes how great GWs model have become. if i already didn't have a huge collection i wouldn't mind using primaris to represent tactical marines and such. 

I got my start with dark angels back in mid 3rd ed so i have been playing for 2 decades. my preference is for 5th edition as the logical progression of the game.
6th edition was a death sentence for 40K at our FLGS, it came back a bit in 7th and more in 8th, after seeing the direction that GW is going with 9th i am completely turned off by it.

I find 8th bare bones to be excellent for playing in epic 6mm scale for speed and ease of play at such high points levels,  and still do with halving all movement and weapon ranges.

With great 3rd party companies like vanguard, onslaught, trolls under the bridge (necrons and some rare guard units) and other 3d printed sellers on ebay there is no shortage of any 40K unit to play with in 6mm scale.

Our FLGS has a small group of veterans who have been playing as long as i have who also prefer 5th and are teaching people to play it who know nothing before 8th edition. 

All the rules we added into 5th were better versions of the rules that existed before or after so we didn't make anything new. our big drive was to get back to the lore/fluff based rules. immersion in the universe is why we play 40K and from 8th ed on it is a completely different game that lacks that feel.

To this end we allow players to use whichever codex they feel best fits their faction within the framework of 5th edition core mechanics and USRs.
for example to best represent dark angels my pick is always the 3.5 mini dex, for chaos the 3.5 dex, for imperial guard the 5th ed dex, the 4th ed dex for nids and tau etc...

I have been having loads of fun fighting the 3.5 version of khorne berserkers with my salamanders(5th) and allied grey knights(3rd).

Adding in newer units is pretty easy since 3rd-7th are cross compatible. for example our chaos player wanted to use a helldrake with his 3.5 codex so we use it's base cost/rules from it's original 7th ed entry and all vehicle upgrades/abilities come at cost from the 3.5 codex. a helldake with parasitic possession is a bit spendy but very worth it.
 

unified 5th edition (perfect edition) rules for using all 3rd edition through 7th edition warhammer 40K codexes in the 5th edition rule set. 

PREFACE-
These rules have been in use by our FLGS group for over 5 years and are intended for casual play to make the 40K experience fun and thematic. allowing players to use the codex they feel best fits the lore of the faction they wish to play and are in no way intended to "balance" game play for tournament style play.

-All rules follow the core 5th edition main rulebook (designated by BRB) with the following exceptions
===============
1.USRs
Any unit that has a USR that does not appear on PGs 74-76 of the main rulebook shall use the appropriate one that matches the intent of the USR, if no similar rule exists the USR is ignored. I.E. "desert strider" from the  admech 7th edition codexes-as normal infantry movement in 5th edition is fixed at 6" the extra 3" move is ignored but, as it is attempting to represent the units abiltiy to move through rough terrain the move through cover USR is used in stead. by comparison "it will not die" does not have A USR equivalent and is ignored.
--------------------------
2.WOUND ALLOCATION
Page 39 of the BRB is replaced with the 4th edition rule-
A-wounds are allocated by the controlling player
B-multi-wound models-wounded models are removed first
---------------------------
3. PRE-MEASURING 
.is allowed
---------------------------
4.VEHICLES AND ASSAULTS P63
. rolling to hit against vehicles is replaced by the 4th edition rules-
A.hits strike the armor facing being attacked
B.vehicles that did not move and do not have a weapon skill are hit automatically
C.vehicles that moved up to 6" are hit on a 4+
D.vehicles that moved over 6" are hit on a 6+
----------------------------
5.POWER WEAPONS 
. all power weapons are AP3 except those that are naturally AP2 (power fists/ORK claws/hammers etc...) or have a special rule that makes them AP2. all bonuses to strength etc.. use the 7th edition weapons profiles (+1 strength for axes etc..)
----------------------------
6.SNIPER RIFLES
.the 5th edition rule is replaced by the 4th edition rule-
hit on 2+ wound on 4+ are strength 3 ( the prior does not apply to the tau sniper rail team as it has a different strength profile) with rending
---------------------------
7.AREA TERAIN TYPE WOODS P21
.tree templates are reverted back to 4th edition 5+ cover saves
---------------------------
8.OVERWATCH/GRENADE THROWING/SNAP FIRE
A.added from 6th/7th edition
B.grenade throw distance is a shooting attack with 8" range for krak and frag equivalent grenades (not melta bombs)
C. As per 7th edition rules snap fire applies to any infantry unit that moves with a heavy weapon that does not possess the relentless or slow&purposeful special rules. additionally, all vehicles may snap fire non-template weapons that they may not fire at normal BS because of being stunned/shaken or movement restrictions (see below)
--------------------------
9.DEFENSIVE WEAPONS ON VEHICLES
A.replace with 4th edition limit of strength5
B.vehicles sitting still may fire all weapons at normal BS unless stunned or shaken. moving at combat speed counts as stationary for firing all S5 or less weapons and may only fire one S6 or better weapon, moving at flank speed they may only snap fire. unless another rule allows it such as POTMS.
-------------------------
10.MONSTEROUS CREATURE MELEE ATTACKS
.replaces S+2d6 armor pen for 6th edition SMASH-
half number of attacks rounding up at S10
-------------------------
11. AA VEHICLES
.can choose to shoot at ground or air targets at the start of the turn at normal BS, however if they have the ability to split fire such as POTMS all shots not at the chosen target hit as if snap fired
-------------------------
12.FLYERS
.follow the 6th/7th edition flyer rules with the following FW fly rules add-ons
A.replace vector lock for immobilized results with-crashed/destroyed
B.flyers never benefit form cover (but still may take jink saves) they are flying high so can see everything on the table and everything can also see them. 
C.AA units hit flyers on BS, non AA units on 6+
D.flyers count as being high up- +12" range penalty to all shooting attacks
E.units that count as jump infantry may assault flyers
F.flyers always count as stationary for firing weapons
G.universal vehicle upgrades-
.armored cockpit-10 points-reduces shaken to stunned damage result
.chaff/flare launchers-5 points-one use- allows a re-roll on a damage result like the venerable rule for dreadnoughts
When a flyer is destroyed place a 5" template over the models base and scatter 2d6 inches. any models caught under the blast friend or foe are hit by a S10/AP1 hit. vehicles are hit on side armor. 
H.flyers can choose to shoot at ground or air targets at the start of the turn at normal BS, however if they have the ability to split fire such as POTMS all shots not at the chosen target hit as if snap fired
-------------------------
13.SUPER HEAVY VEHICLES/CREATURES
A.can be taken in armies of 2,000 points as a separate detachment
B.use the 5th edition apocalypse rules or the escalation expansion rules, or if you are in luck to have a copy of the 3rd edition rules (i do) you can use the rules FW actually designed for use in normal games before apocalypse was a game mode. 
C.D-weapons do not exist replace with S10/AP1 or the 3rd edition rules (IE turbo laser destructors were 72" range S9/AP2 small blast)
-------------------------
14. HULL POINTS DO NOT EXIST 
-------------------------
15.USING NEWER UNITS IN OLDER CODEXES
.IE-using a helldrake in the 3.5 chaos codex-
A.take base cost of new unit entry
B.take all points costs and rules effects for unit upgrades from codex the model is being imported into. 
-------------------------
16.FRAG/KRAK GRENADES EQUIVALENTS
.all basic grenades are part of the normal model loadout ignore additional points costs from older codexes.
_______________
17.VEHICLES IN A SQUAD
.can be broken up into individual units after the game starts but may not rejoin (effectively combat squadding)-addresses the problem that occurs when a single vehicle in the squad gets immobilized (counting it as destroyed, we felt was a bit extreme). 
-------------------------
18. OBJECTIVE SECURED
.from 6th/7th edition-all units are scoring, troop units can take the objective from non-troop units if the objective is contested. 
---------------------
19. fearless-replace no-retreat with 3rd/4th edition fearless/ATSKNF- fearless units auto pass all moral checks, ATSKNF units when caught turn and continue fighting as if combat was tied- no fall back moves are made.

 

 

Codexes i carry with me for game night for group use-

3rd
.dark angels
.white scars(index astartes)
.imperial fists(index astartes)

.iron hands (index astartes)
.demon hunters
.witch hunters

.chaos (3.5)
.chaper approved(imperial guard armoured company/schaffers last chancers)

4th
.tau
.tyranids
.orks
.eldar
.space marines

.black templar


5th
.space marines
.space wolves
.necrons
.imperial guard

.blood angels

.dark eldar

7th
.cult mechanicum/skitarii

 

Aside from gene stealer cults, knights, and death watch i think we have pretty much every faction covered. 


Edited for updates and more detailed rules breakdown. 

Edited December 1, 2022 by mughi3

[Charlo]

I think its a hard sell outside of your own gaming group but it sounds fun, glad you are enjoying it :)

[Beta galactosidase]

What’s your group like - where do you play, how do you know each other, how often?

[mughi3]

What’s your group like - where do you play, how do you know each other, how often?

 

The majority of the group that sat around for several hours and thought this up back when 8th edition dropped have been playing since at least 3rd edition the group has expanded a bit as we teach new players the older edition+ house rules who have never played anything  before 8th edition.  we play at a FLGS. we have known each other as casual regulars who play a variety of games together basically every saturday(i have only missed 3 saturdays in the last 12 years. not bad considering i am running the gaming area).  there is a core group with other players coming and going (lots of military bases near us so we cycle through  players). before COVID restrictions we were able to have many more players obviously(the store game area is rather large...old picture from before covid-

 

  ) 

 

averaging several games each weekend, currently we are down to one or two games at most because we have to have our games via private invite only groups to meet size limit requirements.   this means we have to wait until the store closes, so we are getting a much later start than we normally do. 

Edited November 8, 2020 by mughi3

[Xenith]

Like the idea - how do you deal with skimmers? Using 4th ed vehicle rules, they were unkillable - glances only for a skimmer moving fast (6 - 12"), hen combined with holofields makes them near impossible to kill. Add in the 12" range penalty for skimming fliers and you have a tough nut to crack. 

 

I'd increase S of defensive weapons to 6 from 5, as S5 rules out some obvious things like assault cannons, shuriken cannons, scatter lasers, etc. which are obviously 'defensive'. 

 

A major imbalance that 8th fixed was between degrading vehicles and non degreading MC's - how did you deal with that? 

 

Also the old armour ratings were functionally identical to T values - in that a S8 krak missile needed a 4+ to 'wound' a AV12 tank.

[mughi3]

Like the idea - how do you deal with skimmers? Using 4th ed vehicle rules, they were unkillable - glances only for a skimmer moving fast (6 - 12"), hen combined with holofields makes them near impossible to kill. Add in the 12" range penalty for skimming fliers and you have a tough nut to crack. 

 

I'd increase S of defensive weapons to 6 from 5, as S5 rules out some obvious things like assault cannons, shuriken cannons, scatter lasers, etc. which are obviously 'defensive'. 

 

A major imbalance that 8th fixed was between degrading vehicles and non degreading MC's - how did you deal with that? 

 

Also the old armour ratings were functionally identical to T values - in that a S8 krak missile needed a 4+ to 'wound' a AV12 tank.

 

 

1.Since we are basing it off 5th the fact that 4th ed rules favored skimmers as they could only every be "glanced" is no longer an issue. in 5th they are just as easy to kill as any other vehicle. what we are using is the 4th ed rules used to ATTACK vehicles in CC  based on how much they move(how hard they are to hit) if i didn't make that clear. it's forces a tactical trade off between more accurate shooting or moving. 

 

 

  Also by combining the original FW rules for flyers with the 7th ed rules it balances them out as well.

the penalties to hit are there in range and needing 6s for non AA mounts (giving them an actually  dedicated battlefield role again).  but there are 2 ways to instantly kill them with a pen destruction or a glance /pen immobilization result  instead of "vector lock" (FW allowed chaff/flare dispenser upgrades we put back in to allow that one time per game re-roll of the immobilize result) 

 

2.Since we are purposely avoiding creating our own rules we stayed with the S5 defensive weapons as it is a rule GW made that we can directly reference. also many vehicles with S6+ secondaries are already benefiting from being fast vehicles having POTMS or the fact we are using snap fire. 

 

 

 

3.While we all did like the idea of degrading creatures we again were trying to stay away from writing our own rules. if i had to write my own i would have given creatures a converted version of a vehicle damage chart that blew off guns or slowed their movement.  the compromise we thought best was to remove the "can-opener" aspect by using the 6th edition smash rules giving them half their attacks rounded up at S10 rather than every attack at strength with 2d6 armor pen.  when you consider a blood thirster is normally S8/9 with something like 6 attacks on the charge, effectively making him 6 meltas was a bit excessive.  the trade off for weapons like meltas is their low volume of fire to counter how powerful they are.  6th ed smash had the same end result. 

 

4. yes and no. the scale is not consistent. vehicles having facings and AV are not only intuitive and rational to human experience as well as a big part of tactical play.  a T value does not have the same segregating ability that armor does as T would effectively negate the need for facings (also almost every vehicle in 8th+ is T7 regardless of what it's AV was in 5th). 

 

Against a predator you may need a 5+ from the front to glance the armor but that drops to a 3+ or a 2+ from the sides or rear with a krak missile. 

Edited November 12, 2020 by mughi3

[Wulf Vengis]

I'm working on a somewhat similar project and was wondering about comparing notes and ideas. I'd be interested in knowing more about what you've been running/working on.

 

EDIT: For example I'm torn between psychic powers being used in the phase their abilities match or having a psychic phase.

 

On the one hand I feel that if the powers are used in the matching phases than the psyker could use more than one power per turn, and this feels "natural" to me. Whilst if the powers are all used in one phase it feels less "natural" to me and more like cramming.

Edited June 15, 2021 by Wulf Vengis

[mughi3]

I'm working on a somewhat similar project and was wondering about comparing notes and ideas. I'd be interested in knowing more about what you've been running/working on.

 

EDIT: For example I'm torn between psychic powers being used in the phase their abilities match or having a psychic phase.

 

On the one hand I feel that if the powers are used in the matching phases than the psyker could use more than one power per turn, and this feels "natural" to me. Whilst if the powers are all used in one phase it feels less "natural" to me and more like cramming.

 

 

We really haven't been "working on" anything new. we have been running the same rule set now for a couple years with good results. 

 

For some detailed battle reports and more on this topic take a peek at this thread 

 

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/789567.page

 

I have quite a few battle reports in there,  especially the last few pages, against everything from tau,  to chaos, to admech, etc... 

 

When it comes to the psychic stuff we just stay with the standard 5th ed rules.  by using the power when it applies (movement and support powers during the movement phase, and shooting/assault powers in their respective phases) it doesn't bog the game down with an extra phase that is out of place while being very intuitive. 

 

Aside from super psykers like Ahriman or Eldrad every psyker in the game gets at most 2 powers per turn that they can cast in the appropriate phases. 

 

My chief librarian for example has a travel power and a shooting attack power as well as  the default force weapon ability (assuming he hasn't already used his 2 powers for  that turn)

[Wulf Vengis]

Fantastic.

I really like your layout and system.

Thank you for the voice on psychic "timing", it helps make the decision for me before enacting a play-test.

My players are all too happy to let me work out the mechanics/etc of the game for playing later but don't want to get into the nitty gritty of putting those rules together, not counting at the table discussions of changes to the system.

[mughi3]

Fantastic.

I really like your layout and system.

Thank you for the voice on psychic "timing", it helps make the decision for me before enacting a play-test.

My players are all too happy to let me work out the mechanics/etc of the game for playing later but don't want to get into the nitty gritty of putting those rules together, not counting at the table discussions of changes to the system.

Well best of luck with your group, we have quite a bit of fun playing our hybrid version of 5th, and at the end of the day that's what really matters for us non-tournament players. 

[ONDIG]

Love alot of the older codices

Started in the end of 5th edition.

Not a huge fan of the constant power creep

Was hop3ful that 8th would stick around longer than it did.

Can't complain th0 I'm pretty casual and love running patrol 50PL W INDEX armies

[mughi3]

Just did a more detailed breakdown of the rules by request and a quick update on the codex collection used. 

 

Got in 2 games with our rules last weekened 

5th ed marines VS 7th ed ADMECH and 5th ed marines VS 3.5 chaos (iron warriors).  won one, lost one, but both were great games. 

[justjoshingames]

Question for you:  What do you do about Units that were added post-8th?  An example would be Necrons, which added a bunch of new stuff in 9th.

[mughi3]

They are non-compatible we do not use them. at best you can proxy them as as a unit from FW or something that otherwise existed in 3rd-7th. 

 

Last game i did was 3.5 dark angels VS 5th ed IG. another great game-4 objectives both sides held one tiebreaker goes to the dark angels with first blood and line breaker, morale victory for guard for killing azrael with las gun fire. 

 

[Nostromo]

So far I have only scanned the … compendium?… briefly, but 5th was also my favorite edition - and I have a vague memory of having the same trouble with the codex and missing the 3.5 codex at that time.

In general, at first glance, it looks like a „best of“ based on 5th and adjacent editions, but I am not yet resolved regarding balancing.

However, with recent retirement of many firstborn units which makes large parts of my vintage army (we are at this point in time talking about approximately 12k points…) obsolete, I am out of the official rules anyway.

So this might just be what I am looking for now.